Posted by tealady on October 25, 2004, at 22:42:34
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 4:24:39
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> > I can't seem to figure out what cholinergic drugs do? With me my bladder just retained urine..and I couldn't go..until the T3 (thyroid hormones) began to wear off and then I got a steady trickle for a day or so.
> > I went to 2 docs at the time but both just put a question mark in my records and did the usual pretend I didn't visit them them..errr except that the bill payment was recorded <g>. Apparently what I should have done is go to emergency and get catherised..now I know grr
> >
> > So with all of this I'm trying to work out if acetylcholine, choline, or even say lecithin will
> > have the same effect as cholinergic drugs??
> > Really I'm so lost here??
> >
> > Is this what you mean? I really don't understand the terminology. What is meant by cholinergic?
>
>
> Hi Jan,
>
> From what I've read just now on the net, acetylcholine causes contraction of the bladder muscles to initiate urination....is that how you see it too?I'm not sure Ray.
I spoke to Larrian on the net (she was a gyno-urologist) about this at the time and she said it was probably a combo of things..one linked to the fact that the bladder neck has numerous thyroid receptors ..which I guess maybe somehow reacted to the T3 in Armour. ..beats me.
I think the T3 helps with contraction of the bladder neck..but why one can't voluntarily release when you first encounter the T3 in Armour beats me...
(Larrian thought it may be related also to nerve damage from childbirth..years b4,combined with the T3 receptors in the bladder neck..she could be right, beyond me)What's really strange is that my own FT3 and Ft4 levels before thyroid meds weren't that low, although I had several symptoms of lacking thyroid hormones like the orange skin etc. which also has now disappeared.
I wonder sometimes if the antibodies alter ones thyroid hormones so they are not usable, but still show up as normal in blood tests..haven't heard of that one BTW..one of my dumb "theories"..but that whole thing is another topic, and one I doubt anyone has looked at!******************************************
Here's an old post of mine from when I had that bladder reaction
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=25868.253
"I'm on day 2 on Armour 1 grain. That's what I started on. Strange you mention the fluid/water retention. By lunchtime today my stomach had swollen up so it had a 7.5 months pregnant look- very taut as well. Then I got tired and lay down- fell asleep for 3 or 4 hrs. On waking I have been urinating lots and the bloating and tautness is gradually going down. I have only taken 1grain in the morning. It's 6 pm now, and the fluid retention has 3/4 gone"and an old post of someone else's.
"I have had terrible pains, muscle spasms, extreme fatigue, bloat and water retention, erratic heart beat etc. Im wondering if its because I was put one 1 grain and thats too much to start with or if its just that I cant tolerate any T3. Id been on Synthroid for many years and never had these problems..."
(yeah I went thru all of that too, just wanted to show I'm not the only one..but it is rare..only a couple of other girls have had this reaction that I've heard of in the past 3 years..so that probably makes it about a 1:10000 reaction <g>, at least <1:100)http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=27696.1
"I find that my stomach (or bladder?) swells after the Armour. Actually I think it is my bladder as I cannot pass water until the Armour starts wearing off, and then only a trickle to start with. Before I'd run to the toilet at least you 15 times a day, same as you. And I didn't get much notice either- ie. I couldn't hole the need to urinate.
Now I can't pee(until the meds effect wears off). So in the afternoon it may trickle out , and in the middle of the night- you know about 4am , I am awoken by the need to burst and out it comes! Have you ever had this?
My face was extremely bloated before the Armour, especially when I was on T4 meds only(trialled for one month). At least I think it was when I was on T4- that was in August, it could have been before that. Sorry. So were my eyelids puffy.
Face and eyelids are no longer swollen on Armour. all facial swelling has gone. I'm still trying to figure out what is going on. I'm on week 3 of Armour, but I'm having that bladder/stomach swelling -urinating problem."
and one thing Larrian wrote about effects on bladder relating to celexa or other ssri and having difficulty in urinating ..sorry can't find original post(probably in one the forums that no longer exist)
"It's a very complicated issue of capillary endothelial response etc and serotonin/acetylcholine receptors in tissue membranes "..
it was all in a book and research papers she had written on cystitis apparently <g>
Here's the only paper I can find on a search..but I don't have cystitis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8220989
(put this paragraph in for Kara..probably not helpful)http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=25868.313
At one point, I had emailed Dr. Derry on behalf of one of my Texas members who was having problems with bloating on Armour. He replied to the effect that this would occur as healing was taking place, and that it would resolve itself in time.
*****************it does resolve itself it time..I just don't really understand what was happening...
It actually makes your ability to hold way too good for your own good..and your bladder stretches beyond where it is supposed to..I was holding up to 1100ml urine (supposed to hold about 300-400 or so apparently)<g> Hey, I got it down to only having to get up once during the night, sigh. I'd been told by docs to learn to hold on! ..and to drink MORE when I told them my symptoms!
Back to the MAIN point..
I have got around to buying some soy lecithin...which will give me some choline and presumably some additional acetylcholine..
Now DO I want it? LOL..
Like am I short on acetylcholine or do I have to much now?? <grin>I tried to work this out last year
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/264169.htmlThe only thing I THINK I get is that T3 raises aceylcholinesterase?? Is that what you make out?
So the maybe it also allows more acetylcholine to be made ..or it to be made faster..or maybe it makes less?
>
> Found this abstract about thyroid and bladder...
>
> Influence of the thyroid state on the intrinsic contractile properties of the bladder muscle.
>
thanks for those abstracts Ray. Thanks for trying to help too<g>
Not sure what I make out of them..seem to be saying that thyroid hormones (T4) makes acteylcholine work better? like maybe thyroid hormones are needed sometimes too as receptors like in one of those articles they found "L-tri-iodothyronine(ie T3) nuclear receptors in fetal rat acetylcholinesterase-positive neurons" for the actylcholine to work ..
I note they used T4(and not T3 which is strange in research?)
and the effects I (and others) have noticed haven't occurred noticeably on T4..just on Armour ..strange>
> The enzyme which breaks down acetetylcholine is called acetylcholinesterase - pesticides and deadly nightshade foods contain inhibitors.as above with T3 <g> I think it helps with that one..not completely sure
>
> Vitamin B1 deficiency and alcohol consumption adversely affect acetylcholine (B1 is also needed to make NADPH)
>
Thanks again Ray.
I do have a bigger concern than all of this ..but this is a part of it.
My ADH (vasopressin) came back too low (0.6) and that was on one of my highest oestrogen days in the month(oestrogen is supposed to raise ADH)...which fits in with my thirst , together with low urine osmalality and high serum osmalility(extracellular). ..so it's looking like my main problem is squished cells maybe?
This is the reaon I had the concern with the bowel cleanse stuf..I don't think I need any more dehydration.Apparently to make ADH one needs Acetylcholine..so I was just trying to work it out, sigh.
Jan
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poster:tealady
thread:359642
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041022/msgs/407247.html