Posted by Solstice on December 1, 2010, at 10:05:09
In reply to Re: Elders Council - minimum block time » Solstice, posted by Dinah on December 1, 2010, at 8:58:11
Oh Dinah... thank you so much for helping me better understand.
I am absolutely certain.. from personal and professional experience.. that when developing a concept or system modification, the only way to find out what will work is to know more about the nuances of what drives the dynamics. I don't know if I'm doing a very good job explaining it - - but the more you explain - - the more likely it is that we can figure out *Some*thing that will work. When we stop talking, though... that's when the possibilities dry up.
> I thought nothing Dr. Bob would do would surprise me.
>
> But the idea that he would give posters the right to decide that his posts were overkill, or unjustified, does surprise me.I don't have even a smidgen of the experience you have with Bob. And I genuinely understand why the posting community is legitimately reluctant to believe hoping for relief will result in relief. Now.. I may have jumped the gun in implying that I think Bob is willing to let Council determine if his block is overkill.. but I think that is the essence of his offer to allow a Council to, by majority vote, release a blocked poster from their sentence. I also think that Bob has the desire and potential to be very fair.. but I also think that the shear volume of posters, postings, etc. makes it very, very difficult for him to stay attuned to what's going on here. I think he recognizes that, and that's why he's willing to trust a Council of 5 to overturn a block, and to revise the length of a block deemed legitimate, but excessive.
> He just as well deliberate with the council before issuing blocks, so as not to have his actions effectively overturned. He apparently has changed quite a bit.Maybe he's the same, but his understanding has changed? And remember.. he has said that Council's jobs would be: 1) pay attention to blocking activity, and if there is an outcry over a particular block.. Council convenes, discusses the merits of the block, determines by majority whether and when it should be lifted, and then has the power to actually release the block (without clearing it through him); and 2) be available to Bob for consulting purposes. I think that means that any ideas he has for the site.. (i.e.facebook?).. or other contentious matters that arise and concern him... he will discuss it with the Council. Council members are actively posting members. They are attuned to what's going on here. He will rely on them to provide him a sense of what the collective membership thinks.
And to be clear.. he isn't actually relinquishing power. He alone has the power to shut the whole site down. What he's doing is sharing power.. by trusting Council's wisdom regarding blocks.. and giving them the power to restore a poster's posting privileges.
> What you're describing sounds as much a board of appeals as a parole board.I like "Board of Appeals" - I think that's closer. In essence.. say Bob blocks a poster. Since Council exists, all blocks are subject to Council review. Council may frequently not dispute the legitimacy of the block.. and they may not dispute a 2-week or 4-week block. But if a poster ends up blocked for 6 months because they repeatedy said f*rt without the asterick, Council could rule "Ok.. it's our decision that the block was justified because that Poster knows that using that word without the asterick just isn't allowed.. but we think 6 months is overkill. So what we're going to do is leave the block for 2 weeks, and then we will release the poster from the block as long as they agree to turn on the asterick thingy." Regardless, Council has the final word. And as long as the site is generally running well, he would not interfere. That's an example of how I think Bob intends it to work.
> I can't help but think that animosity towards board members who vote that a block was *not* unjustified and that therefore the poster *was* in the wrong would be not insubstantial.I don't think it would be like that. I think that the intensity of the animosity that has been on here regarding blocks would not materialize with Council. I think the animosity is generated by the excessive lengths of blocks, and low-threshhold blocks. The existence of Council would remedy those things. The blocks that Council agrees is justified probably really will be justified! But - say that poster appeals to Council and wants it reduced. Council can convene and rule "We are willing to reduce your block from 5 months to 1 month, but only on the condition of you 1) having your first 10 posts reviewed by a Civility Buddy; or 2) turning on the posting delay for the balance of the 5 month block so that your posts have a 24 hour delay." Now see.. this kind of reasonable 'justice,' in my view.. is not going to generate animosity toward Council! I think the vast majority of Babble is reasonable and wants moderation. They aren't going to pitch fits because of an uncivil poster getting blocked. The intensity of the animosity you've seen here that you're worried about, I think, became what it is because of the outcry against the current blocking procedures. Bob's chronic difficulty with genuinely 'listening' to what was going on intensified the animosity.
In addition.. remember.. Council is five people. I would be totally against Council having to disclose to anyone but Bob who voted for what, or even whether a Council member abstained from voting. People could get angry with 'Council' as an institution, but how could they get angry with a particular Council member? That council member may have been the one who voted For the blocked poster!
> Or that those who see themselves as victims of a poster, when the council members think that a block was unjustified, might be angry with those who might be seen as being insensitive to *their* pain. But perhaps I'm wrong.I think that the 'victims' should be a temperature guage that Council uses in its determinations of blocks. From what I've seen.. there are way more people who are considered 'victims' by Bob who weren't even offended by the post! They sometimes seem annoyed that they were considered 'victims,' and felt worse about someone being blocked on account of having supposedly made them feel put down (when they didn't feel put down). So I just don't see it materialising like you're concerned about. In cases where there is someone who feels very victimized, chances are that there will be no dispute about the legitimacy of the block, and any adjustments to block length should probably consider the impact on the victim. Part of the blocked poster's access to restoration of privileges could and should involve repairing the damage they did, which will likely result in the victim feeling the acknowledgment that causes the feelings of victimization to dissipate.
Let's keep dialoguing about it, Dinah..
Solstice
poster:Solstice
thread:964630
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101201/msgs/972062.html