Posted by Nardilstarted 2007 on December 3, 2008, at 0:29:29
In reply to Re: Need advice! Nardil switch to Parnate!! » Nardilstarted 2007, posted by JadeKelly on December 2, 2008, at 23:18:52
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> > > > > > Bonjour, So you feel the NE/Epinephrin kick as soon as you took 40mg... thats good to know because I can assume its working quite similar for you as it does for me. I expect that good feeling you get will dissapear any day now and you'll feel like its doing nothing
> > > > > (except the side effect like heart racing at dose time, insomnia, maybe jittery.. at least those were some for me)
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> > > > > Well aren't you just a pocket full of sunshine!.
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> > > > > I say I take a high dose (60mg/day) because thats the highest dose approved by the FDA and 30mg/day is recomended starting dose. SOme peole on Parnate take up to 200mg/day which blows me away! I guess that shows how desensitized some peoples brains get to these meds. If you stick at 40mg/day for another 2.5 weeks you should know if its working or not. If not, try 50 mgs for another 3 weeks (im sure youll get those initial good feelings as soon as you increasy your dose but will go away. then you gotta wait the whole 3 weeks to see if the "real antidepressant effect" will kick in.
> > > > > > WHen I started at 50 mgs I went MANIC, very hyper very happy, so I dropped to 40 like I mentioned before. WHat happened was that it was those initial good feelings, not the real antidepressant effect that were too strong. The next shot at 50mgs after 3 weeks at 40mgs I could tolerate the good feelings for the first 3 days without going too manic. Then 3 weeks later, nothing. Once I hit 60 mgs I had the initial good feelings which went away after 2 days but the Real Antidepressant Effect kicked in after about 10 days at 60 mgs. ( I know I repeated alot of the same stuff ive said before, I guess im just making sure i was right in the first message)
> > > > > > As for weight it doest matter too too much like it does with Nardil. Nardil you can expect it to work at 1mg/kg of body weight. it Varies signifigantly for some people tho. if your 125lbs Id suspect 30 - 50mg's will work but youve already prooved 30 mgs does not. Just a note: it can take 6 weeks at each dose increase to know foresure that it will, or will not work. It just "usually" works within 2-3 weeks after youve been on a lower dose for 6 weeks. IM not gonna wait 6 weeks at every dose increase if it usually works after 3 when titrating up dosages. I have severe social Anxiety disorder which leads to depression and agoraphobia. Depression SUcks Dong and Anxiety ontop is a killer. ANd O mighty Parnate, The Last drug I have tried. This is almost my last resort. After this it will be on to Weird off label Pharmaceutical mixtures of my own making ahha. I Know Parnate isProbably The #1 best Antidepressant in the world. its not very good for Anxiety but thats for most people. it seems to be doing a great job on both. AND YES my days are split feeling. Morning I feel so sensitive I could cry at anything. Its not that bad I just have very over stimulated feelings. by afternoon i just like the antidepressant effect and anti anxiety.. Next Post Ill write a list of drugs that worked and did not and their issues. Hope this helps I love talking about it. Feel free to tell me lots more , I just gotta go here at the moment..
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> > > > > Wait...its the weekend and your saying you have something better to do than talk to me? Well, frankly Phil, I'm hurt. So, I thought you were done titrating at 60mg. Do you expect to go higher? As for sensitivity and crying, and overstimulated feelings, bring it on. I've been numb for far too long. Time to face the music (I'm afraid to face the music).
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> > > > > Sorry your depression "sucks dong" and your anxiety is killer. A bad combo. But you are still in remission tho, right? I didn't know you had anxiety for some reason. Did you have agoraphobia before, or did it come as a package deal with depression? Just rechecking our similarities. Mine is loss of most previous pleasures. I still like to breathe. I literally feel numb and lethargic. My emotions (or lack thereof) would be the most striking symptom. Total shut down, although I do feel agoraphobic and have anxiety if around other people at times. Never had either of those. Still sound familiar?
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> > > > > So, other meds list can wait, I don't plan on going off Parnate any time soon, but I would like a back-up plan just in case. Little nervous about going up to 50mg but I will if thats what it takes.
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> > > > > OK, you take care of business and I will chat with you next time!
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> > > > > ~Jade
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> > > > > PS-3 days of feeling normal to good, eves, not so much. May be wearing off. One step closer.....
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> > > > I wrote alote here, but my med list is at the bottom of my post. If you get initial side effects from the parnate I hope to god you can wait them out till your body adapts to it, they will go away! mostly. and its worth it because who knows, maybe Parnate will work wonders when you get to you theraputic dose.
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> > > > Hey Jade! Yes im still in remission. No im not still titrating, I'm just assuming Parnate will start pooping out one day and I'll have to raise the dose up. Im a bit Cynical to Antidepressants.. they cause alot of bad BUT I know theyve done alot more good then bad when I think of where i would be without them.
> > > > Did I really hurt you when I had something else to do? Was it because you feel so bad... its all good , I can take it because Im doing well enough on parnate to actually let things fly like that even if its just a joke, or real. I used to be very very sensitive to public scrutiney (im not best speller) I still am underneath but it really shows Im doing well.
> > > > FACE THE MUSIC! Well I tell you what, Ive never had more feelings in my life. heres an example from a minute before i wrote this post - I heard on the radio a commercial thing, it was a lil skit. A guy told another guy at work that there was something wrong in the payroll department and that they couldnt find the guy's address to send his earnings to, the guy said oh, ok, ill get onto that and get back to you. Then the skit was over and the radio said something like: many people you know are homeless and youd never even be able to tell, a message from the sation." I was so moved and felt so sad for the guy I had a big lump in my throat and felt so human, it was nuts. Happy, sad, keen, enthusiastic etc etc, my days are full of all the feelings now. So completely opposite from before where I didnt care about anything. Before I could probably watch my mom cry and id be so numb it would nt bother me.. which led me deeper into depression cuz i would think how unemotional i was and a bad person.. Anyway. (a bit scary), You'll be OK i promise* just dont go watching heart wrenching movies every night and looking through old photo albums right away. I know those two things in particular make me so full of emotions I know when and when not to engage in it. The crying thing isnt out of sadness (well sometimes) but rather its because im bubling with feelings. My dad and grandpa was like that. my dad is normal but he'll cry watching a movie or when he's proud of something or happy. (Parnate is bringing them on maybe just a little too strong for me, but Hey! im not complaining at all:))
> > > > Your symtoms do sound familiar foresure. I know our initial diagnosis is different but I;ve felt the way you explain yourself sometimes. My Major problem (since i was probably 4) is social phobia/over analyzing myself/Panic attacks/depersonalization.. by college i couldnt cope anymore and became agoraphobic and didnt leave my house. I became depressed and lost all intersts except like u said i did breath. The only thing that got me up was to research the net for a reason and a cure. Walk in Clinic gave me Paxil 20mgs. Crazy side effects BUT within 2 weeks I was completely manic and back in class talking a million miles a minute, did some presentations (still were hard)as well made lots of new friends, did crazy things, Not a care in the world, I was NUTS lol. I loved it (except sex life was all gone). I got a great summmer job. so after 5 months of mania i decided to lower the dose. i got some withdrawl. Life once again SUCKED just like before so i did what any sane or insane person would do and raised Paxil back up. It didnt work ever again even with higher doses.. that was about seven years ago. ever since ive been looking for that "drug" to make me like I first felt on Paxil.
> > > > What I now know is being in a manic state isnt good either. Now I am sorta diagnosed ( from a few diff. psychiatrists), supposedly im: Bipolar2 with rapid cycling and have social phobia. I'm pretty sure im similar to every other depressive out there, I need an antidepressant and I know when it works and when it doesn't, even tho my diagnosis is different. I will get the AD effect sometimes and if I do Ill know if its the one I need or not.
> > > > list: Paxil 20mgs-worked but after that NO other SSRI ever worked again except odd times when I would think it was working for a few days (probably was just my bipolar).. Zoloft up to 200mgs, Celexa 20mgs, cipralex up to 30mgs (this one made me so tired I could sleep 23 hours a day on a hardwood floor), prozac60mgs, Wellbutrin SR 150mgs x 2 daily so 300mgs total/day. It made me very very interested in everthing I did and was very prosexual, I would stay up all night sometimes just reviewing and studying things for no reason but curiosity, I was a bit ignorant and self oriented, I was energized. it took 2 weeks to work fully but similar to Parnate when I began it)The anxiety Wellbutrin created was terrible so i had to quit. I tried Paxil again 30mgs with 300mgs of wellbutrin XL, it didnt work, Then I tried Effexor and it had the energizing feeling like parnate and wellbutrin (cuz all 3 act on NOREpiNephrine) but Effexor's energy and focus stayed from day 1 and lasted for 2 months, then it stopped working but I kept taking it. I turned to Alcohol With the Effexor and it would give me euphoria (Every SSRI I ever tried had wonderful euphoria when mixed with alcohol). I didnt drink at work so I was on effexor and having social phobia/panick attacks and was suffering with agoraphobia. Ultimately I Drunk a miki and 6 beer and took 4 mgs of xanax which led me to the hospital and loosing my job. I came home to parents house and drunk and partied with the effexor while i could. Then I tried Paxil AGAIN!! hahha dont ask why , i was crazy. didnt work. I cold turkey quit everything for a month. I felt great except the initial withdrawl but I felt human again and not numbed by ssris. by the end of the month I had a anxiety attack at a friends that lasted almost 2 days, I drove all the way home from college 10hrs and hid in our camping trailor with a botle of xanax, I went depressed, I wanted to die or be secluded in a cabin in the mountains forever.. I couldnt even talk to my parents. So I went to a clinic and immediately got a script for NARDIL.
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> > > > Phase 2: MAOI's. Nardil was ok, it worked but only at the highest FDA dose of 90mgs a day, it was full of side effects. It didnt work good enough so I drunk quite regularly. In my opinion it was the first thing to somewhat work since 6 years previous when Paxil initially worked.. I had 2 hospitalizations while on Nardil from my bipolar because i went psychotic, first time I was just stabilized and was ok after a week being in the ward. 2nd time I got put on lithium with Nardil. I got strucred environment in the hospital and when I left I was GREAT! Nardil is not too bad if you keep to a strict healthy lifestyle with good structure, Lithium made it work much better.
> > > > I quit because the side effects and lithium also is a weight gainer. So Walk in Clinic I went and got PARNATE YaY!
> > > > I did the switch within 24hrs.
> > > > Parnate: I find it to be the most powerful drug of them all and it works too. It is Notorious for pooping out, so your dosage goes up with time. Some people it never poops out.
> > > > Parnate gave me this: Im up early, I like to cook, read, work on stuff, bowshoot, have interesting conversations, a bright look on the future with asperations..... Parnate makes me Normal, Im liking it very much.
> > > > ALERTEC!!!!!!!!!!!! I took 150mg's of alertec with my noon dose of parnate and WOW! I was very constructive, VERY fast and felt unbelievably good.. probably a good choice to take a little when Parnate gives you the afternoon tired spells.
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> > > > Conclusion:
> > > > #1. Parnate
> > > > #2. Nardil
> > > > #3.Effexor - worked for 2 months wonderfully then stopped.
> > > > #4. Wellbutrin - Not good for me because I have anxiety but Great med that took me off the couch and into a creative worled where I was full of energy and capable and wanting to do all tasks in life, I wish it helped with anxiety, oh well.
> > > > #5. I think any ssri i would have tried first would have done the same as Paxil... so I have no good input on any SSRIS other then they work 30 % of the time and the rest of the people quite because side effects or it doesnt work.
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> > > > Non-Antidepressants ( a break down aswell)
> > > > #1.Alertec - energizing, long half life, antidepressant effect a bit, focus, good for ADD symptoms. (I've only used it when I need it, never on a daily dosing regime, which you can do)
> > > > #2. Clonazepam/xanax, Great for anxiety at doses above 2mg's for me. no AD effect:(
> > > > #3. Propanolol - Takes away ALL my physical symptoms of anxiety and panic, Only physical tho. very good too when i dont want to shake or have my heart racing. 40mg's as needed is good.
> > > > How are you feeling?
> > > > Your Friend Phil
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> > > Oh Gosh, Phil, I'm sorry. I thought we were kinda joking around enough that you would know I was kidding! Believe me, it would REALLY take a lot to hurt my feelings right now. I should have been more careful tho, you're ahead of me and actually have feelings like a normal person. I better watch my joking and sarcasm. Not just with you. So you've been thru he*l and back sounds like. That was quite a story. I'm glad you're in such a better place now. One of my sons is bipolar I, he's been hospitalized 3 times for mania. He gave me a good scare. He was rapid cycling for nine months until we found right meds. He's such a great kid, you would like him. So sounds like between my depression and seeing close up Bipolar, I probably still can't even imagine what you've been thru emotionally. I'll have some serious losses to face when I wake up from this, I can see why people like us "go underground". I do think you just shut down. By the time you do, there is no easy way back. Even if Parnate works (I'm planning that it will!), I'll have some adjusting to do. Not complaining mind you, just a little scared of feeling anything. Oh, and btw? How refreshing that the men in your family can show their feelings! The world could use more Dad's like that. Sounds like you have a nice family. Oh, thanks for that med list, I think I'll feel better if I have a back-up plan in place. Not that I'll need it mind you. And about the side effects stopping me from taking Parnate? NO WAY!!! I'm going all the way till I feel like myself again. At worst, I'd probably add something. Maybe that "Alertec", don't know what it is! So, its after midnight, with Parnate I've been falling asleep sometimes in late afternoon/evening, then wake back up. And here I am! I'll write again soon when I'm more awake. Again, sorry if I confused you. I'm not fragile (right now) at all. You won't hurt my feelings and I hope I didn't hurt yours. I think your great!!!
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> > > ~Jade
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> > Hi Lol, no you didnt hurt my feelings i just didnt know if u were serious or not.. sonds good. I want to clarify somethig.. Well I think ive been just a little over dramatic how well Parnate is working. These emotions I now feel are very powerful and hard to control. I completely believe it is because I am genetically predispositioned to be sensitive and a caring person (most people with social anxiety disorder are). Like I was saying before about my dad being quite emotional (in a good way tho). Because I am sensitive emotionally, the parnate has exasburated(spellin?? hhaha)my feeling above normal. Hey Im still not complaining! :) I'm better now then I have ever been. This morning I sat down to read a magazine and, MY GOD!, I would nearly want to cry at every sentence because it meant so much to me. I do, and do not like having this much feeling, a catch 22. I guess the only downfal is.. for example: I watched the movied Meet Joe Black with my girlfriend the other night . we were laying on the floor ,comphy. She put her head around the bottom of my rib cage. Now this is all fine and dandy but Its such a movie that It was so hard to keep my stomach muscles from contracting like I was about to cry every time I was moved by a scene. She must be thinking wow! this guy is a very deep and emotionally set man... Well Jade what do you think hey? I bet everyone out in our lands of depression are wishing they could feel so much, so im a hypocrite to some extent. PS. I was laughing alot aswell during the movie and a real blast to watch it with. I loved it. I just need to get these emotions under control. Im sure a little bit of cognital thinking/therapy will easily "fix" it.. hahah just enough so i dont walk down the street and see someone eating an apple then remembering my great grandpa had an apple tree and then get alll emotional and tears, crying, happpyness, etc etc.. lol. thats all.
> > How are you feeling? any mood changes? did you loose or gain any of the initial "good" responce from upping that dose a week ago?
> > Just a food for thought: If Parnate doesnt work as well as it will! (im pretty sure it will) You have the options of Nardil and Marplan. Marplan is between the two as how it works, a bit closer to Nardil. These 3 meds are the Big Boys when it come to an AD in a pill. Weight gain is just a bit of an issue with Nardil/Marplan. Everyone is different. I've also heard new talk of the SSRI Luvox doing quite well as for having less side effects. the TCA's Ive never tried but know that for most pple they have the worst side effects, like your walking around frothing at the mouth with jaw lock..
> > Can I ask a Question..: Have you tried so many meds (normal ones, not going way over the off label uses of other drugs) that Parnate is pretty much your last resort/hope? Because that is where I am. If in the future I get another episode and Parnate poops out I would have to go to Marplan and then maybe ECT if Marplan doest work. Then I assume IF NONE OF THOSE WORK! (Yes im good now, Parnate is working well, just ranting a lil) Id mix a Maoi with a TCA like nortriptyline. I could type endless possibilities forever but we dont have forever, life is too short... theres a bunch of other drugs out there to add aswell like NRI's(just noreadrenaline) or a DA Just a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, on their own or in combo.. K im going to shut up here! Lets just stick with our Parnate before going to crazy. Im doing well, and im so eager what the next weeks/ month or two will bring you..
> > Talkt to you soon
> > Phil
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> We don't have forever? Aha, lol, just kidding, couldn't help myself. Phil, you are too funny. There is NO WAY I'm going off Parnate. It's moved into a kinda funny stage, tell me what you think. You know we were saying how you get that initial happy thing in the beginning? And you said I'd get a couple/few days at each dose increase? Well, I increased last Tuesday maybe? Wed thru today, Tues (One week) I've been good during the day, not euphoric at all, still off, but definately better, then anywhere from 4-7pm I crash. Want to be alone in my room. Not sad, just really need to be alone. I take my 40mg in the morn after take son to school. Is that just the NE/epinephrine kicking in? If it was A/D, wouldn't it be continuous thru day and eve? Not complaining, I'll take what I can get!! Just thought I'd see what you thought. I have big plans for PARNATE!!! Only thing is, I know this sounds wierd, I like some of the numbness. There are reasons I got here in the first place. I don't worry about people as much. I don't get all upset. I've been just chillin in a perpetual state of numbness and apathy. Not sure I can handle all those emotions. Aren't they what got me here in the first place? Without my permission, mind you? OK. Enough of the deep stuff. Sorry.
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> As for your emotional state, I think you're making up for lost time! It'll calm down when you see the depression really is gone. I heard someone say it was like seeing the world in black and white and then seeing it color. That should make anyone cry daily for a while!! Don't you think??!! I don't know why, but the only thing I really feel is afraid of facing things as they were when I shut down. I geuss that would be normal when all the sudden you get slammed with a depression like nothing you've ever known? Numb is better, believe me. So was it like that for you? At all? Well, I'll just stay at 40mg for a while and see what happens! I do believe I'm on the road to recovery.
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> Yeah, not too much into the whole therapy thing but thinking under the circumstances, you know, the fact that I'm gonna be myself again soon, I better learn how to cope! Just a little safety net, what do you think?
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> Well, I geuss you've heard me carry on for long enough. Thanks for your help, my friend. Talk to you soon Parnate buddy. haha
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> ~Jade
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>That sounds like textbook Parnate when you get the "crash" sometime in the afternoon. couple questions..
When you crash are you tired aswell?
What do you think makes you want to be alone?When it really kicks in you will probably have afternoon tired spells but you will feel fine/good, just tired. you can fix that by adjusting dosing times. maybe 20 in the am and 20 at noon, ask your doc about thatkind of stuff. I take 30am and 30 at noon I dont crash much at all untill bed time.
Im not a Textbook patient on Parnate because im Bipolar aswell and social phobe, but nonetheless I feel the drug work in the textbook fashion. To me.. Ya I think its starting to kick in with the AD effect. You probably already know it works on serotonin and dopamine too, aswell as a whole bunch of other neuros. What the pL says is you may feel better anywhere from 24hours - 6 weeks. This is the only med with that kind of uncertainty that I know of. Some people feel the NORE/EPINeph kick in like we do and some people dont. When you do get that initial rush its like taking a stimulant, and like a stimulant it crashes after however many hours.. NORE/EPINeph Also have AD properties that kick in after 2-6 weeks aswell, or about the sametime you will feel the serotonin/ dopamine kick in. It would make sense to me that your getting a nice initial everyday stimulant effect when you dose; after metabolized you crash. But if you feel "ok" most of the day and your not really sad when you crashes in the afternoon I would say one (or more) of the neuros is begining to kick in and delivering AD effects. They coula all come on at different times. I'm noticing that at my therapeutic level my body is still adapting and still having neurotransmitters giving more AD effects and im still adjusting. MAOI's sure arn't as easy as ssris where its like boom! all of a sudden its been blocking the uptake of SE for long enough that it kicks in one day and stays like that. were dealing with so many neuro's that all will give AD effects at different times, it makes for a bumpy ride until a balance is achived.
I do think when Parnate begins to work you will feel happy, and task oriented aswell as caring. The feeling that overwhelm most of us to depression are not good feelings. So I do understand what you mean about being scared to feel that again. When I hit a depression im just full of sensitive feelings, but they;re all bad, none good, So many bad feelings and then poof im depressed (me not for long cuz im bipolar but I know half *ss what your saying) Parnate gives me enough good feelings that im not gonna get depressed thats foresure. Note: at some points I get a little bit of rage/anger because the Parnate makes me care so much about things and I dont want them to be messed with. Cognital self/with some one else therapy would be easy enough to allow Us to be numb about certain things we want to be numb to.
poster:Nardilstarted 2007
thread:863385
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20081123/msgs/866383.html