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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 32 to 56 of 56. Go back in thread:
Posted by seldomseen on August 31, 2008, at 15:51:18
In reply to Re: validation » seldomseen, posted by Racer on August 31, 2008, at 15:15:03
Wow! Thanks Racer :) I did read the other post. I'm blushing...
Anyway I think you have a good explanation as well as to why we continue to look to things that just - well - just aren't good for us at all.
I've never considered the "we have a high tolerance to being treated badly". I guess we do.
Transference and pets? Well, I have four rescued cats, a hand-me-down guinea pig and a dog from foster care. Not to mention all the rescue animals I work with on my volunteer vocation. I think that just about says it all.
Seldom.
Posted by Racer on August 31, 2008, at 16:28:00
In reply to Re: validation » Racer, posted by seldomseen on August 31, 2008, at 15:51:18
> >
> Transference and pets? Well, I have four rescued cats, a hand-me-down guinea pig and a dog from foster care. Not to mention all the rescue animals I work with on my volunteer vocation. I think that just about says it all.
Ah, but do you tolerate abusive behavior from them which mimics the dynamics of your childhood?Short version of cat story: cat was so unpredictable and so aggressive in his attacks, that after three years of working with vets, behavioral experts from a top veterinary school, and even a cat psychic (I'm so skeptical that the last is proof that I really did exhaust every avenue), the end result was a consensus of expert opinion that he should be put to sleep. As it happens, everyone else said the same thing.
But I was acting out transference -- that's all I can figure out. My relationship with this cat was so similar to that with my mother -- me desperately trying to gain the love/approval/cessation of blood loss/whatever from them, and getting attacked in return. So, I couldn't follow the vet's advice -- I hadn't fixed that recreated dynamic, and I had a desperate need to do so.
I was about to say that the thing with the cat worked out better -- then I realized my mother and I have gotten along very well for a number of years now, so maybe I had some success with both relationships...
Posted by lemonaide on August 31, 2008, at 16:30:09
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility, posted by susan47 on August 31, 2008, at 15:08:45
Susan,
Working out of a client's home is possible, it depends on the problems. Sometimes that is the problem in the first place, they can't leave their home. And some severe OCD issues too.
Posted by lemonaide on August 31, 2008, at 16:39:37
In reply to Re: Racer-valadation » lemonaide, posted by seldomseen on August 31, 2008, at 15:38:58
Me thinks I am in over my head here. lol It is a good thing I took a semeseter off because my mind is mush.
Guess what, I am going to therapy this Tues, and I am not going to think about the relationship at all, lol. I think I am trying too hard to think, I am just going to be in the moment. Thanks for trying though, it will get through eventually. :-)
Posted by seldomseen on August 31, 2008, at 17:37:38
In reply to Ah, but... » seldomseen, posted by Racer on August 31, 2008, at 16:28:00
No I don't tolerate aggression in animals under my care.
If I get a wild one (and I certainly have before) it gets its own space. I didn't get rid of her, but she definately was quarantined until she came around a little bit.
What did happen though, was I went through a strong, and very hurtful phase with my T (Oh, one of many) in which I wanted him to rescue me from all that was bad. I resolved that with him or did I just transfer it to my animals and become their rescuer?
Seldom
Posted by seldomseen on August 31, 2008, at 18:11:13
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » seldomseen, posted by susan47 on August 31, 2008, at 14:36:15
I did not mean for my thoughts to come across as laid back or glib. Perhaps you are right, and there is a hint of resignation there. I don't know.
However, in my opinion, my words or my attitude have nothing to do with your feelings of suicidality. I think those feelings are yours.
Please don't worry about offending me - you can't.
We're all in this together I guess.
Seldom.
Posted by susan47 on August 31, 2008, at 23:50:30
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » susan47, posted by seldomseen on August 31, 2008, at 18:11:13
No, of course your attitudes aren't directly related to my feelings of being suicidal. The whole attitude though that there is nothing that can be done to repair a bad therapy, the attitude that I should now fend for myself, is the attitude that makes my life feel unbearable, because as long as the bad therapy isn't repaired, that is how I tend to feel. Not a desire or a thought-out wish of mine, but a consequence of who I Am, unfortunately, being Borderline.
And your lack of understanding is obvious, and it's okay. It's all right. I don't expect you to understand; you've made yourself very clear.
Posted by seldomseen on September 1, 2008, at 6:42:02
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » seldomseen, posted by susan47 on August 31, 2008, at 23:50:30
I definately think that bad therapy can be repaired. I just think it can be hard to reach a resolution with the former therapist.
As far as being left to fend for yourself, that's a tough one. I can certainly appreciate how hard it is to trust in the first place. Not to mention how hard it would be to trust after a bad therapy experience.
However, there are a lot of people that have chosen to do just that and they post on this board. It's a long road to peace and there are a lot of obstacles on that road, but it can be traveled. It doesn't have to be viewed as a "abandon all hope all ye who enter here" type thing.
Regarding borderline personality, I don't think that is who you are at all. It may be a set of symptoms that you exhibit and need help with, but it's not the core of your person. Who told you that anyway? Was it the same T with whom you had the problems? How credible, in your mind, is that source?
You are a good good person that has been deeply deeply hurt. What I hear under all that hurt is clear voice, trying to get through that says, "I am good enough to get help, I deserve to feel some peace".
I know a lot of of people that have gotten relief with DBT. Is that available to you in your area?
Seldom
Posted by antigua3 on September 1, 2008, at 8:01:53
In reply to Re: Racer-valadation, posted by seldomseen on August 31, 2008, at 14:01:02
>>So, here comes someone who seeks to challenge that fit and replace it with what should be there. For me, it was simply a fresh kind of hell.
seldomseen, my problem is that I don't have the perception to know if what I'm getting is "heaven or hell" from my pdoc. How do you know when it's them, in reality, when you're told it's you? Yes, go with your gut instincts, but those are warped as well. I struggle with this all the time, because if I disagree with what he has to say, I'm in denial.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on September 1, 2008, at 8:17:43
In reply to Re: Racer-valadation, posted by lemonaide on August 31, 2008, at 16:39:37
I'm like that, tending to overanalyze and over think what I want to say. Last time I didn't. I let him speak and it was a powerful, rewarding session. I came to a peace that I'd never experienced before w/him, and myself, and it has lasted somewhat.
try it; see if it works and let us know how it goes. For me, it was definitely a matter of trust,
antigua
Posted by susan47 on September 1, 2008, at 11:02:34
In reply to Re: validation » seldomseen, posted by Racer on August 31, 2008, at 15:15:03
>> >
> > I think we give a lot of credence to people we shouldn't because they say what we are most comfortable hearing. I suspect we may even seek out the bad sometimes. We are used to it "fitting" with what we think of ourselves. It may be evil, but it's a known evil.
>
>
Dear old dad: "You're so ugly, you should see your face when you don't smile" "Who would want you? You're ugly" And other things, things I don't remember anymore, not right now, not this moment.
I wish I were really young again, so I could live my life the way it should have been lived.
Maybe now, at this old age, I can do it. Because one day I'll look at when I was 51 and say, "Wasn't I young then?" After all, the aches and pains are only just starting, and I know I can fend them off. Tae Kwon Do girl.There are some things I can still do.
I can still love myself, the way I should have been loved, and wasn't.> Yes, I think we do. I'm not sure we seek it out because we feel comfortable with it, though. I'm more inclined to think it's recreating the old relationship so that we can Do It Right This Time, combined with a high level of tolerance for being treated badly.
My ex-T only treated me badly when he didn't believe in me, and I think that was most often.I refuse to be seen that sick way anymore. It isn't true, it isn't real, and I can believe in myself, and I do. I have to. It's do that, or die not knowing I was a good, decent, kind, lovely person. As my father will wonder, he will wonder to his dying breath if he could have done it all differently. And this eats him today, Ibelieve, in his terminal illness, having been diagnosed with bladder cancer and now taking my two sons sailing with him .. and I wonder how this will turn out.
Will my children (24 and 12) ... will they be okay? Will they be more than okay, will their egos more than survive and vitriol thrown their way by a bitter old man ... oh, God.
And back to my therapist.
It was a masochistic love that I felt.
It was a complete annihilation of myself.
And I am angry.
The fool allowed it to (a) happen, and (b) continue.
I am so angry with him.
I am so angry with his need to be admired, to be controlling and controlled also, his need to be seen as Special almost killed me.
Posted by susan47 on September 1, 2008, at 11:23:23
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » susan47, posted by seldomseen on September 1, 2008, at 6:42:02
> I definately think that bad therapy can be repaired. I just think it can be hard to reach a resolution with the former therapist.
>
Hard, or IMPOSSIBLE? How can a resolution be reached if no responsibility is taken? The lack of responsibility leads to others being harmed. I can't sit down and pretend this didn't happen. It did. I was hurt. I could have died, easily, if I weren't borderline I may have committed suicide over this.
But I fly from one feeling to another; you have no idea. I can understand that. Don't worry about who gave me a borderline Dx. That is the thing you don't understand. Borderline is not crazy or the end of the world. It can be treated, and yes I'm getting DBT now from what I hope is a wonderful counsellor at my local mental health and addictions service. But who knows how long I will last in that program. I tend to fly from one feeling and event and thing to another in my life, because I'm so emotionally unstable, and it takes stable people around me to keep me grounded and centered, and I need family very much and I don't have family because my family of origin, for one thing, is so triggering, although I love each of them dearly and they love me, I have to maintain a good distance sometimes because I just am too deeply triggered by them. So my immediate family which includes an ex-SO and my two younger children are whom I rely on to keep me stable. I spent time in the hospital and my own Dx confirmed by several doctors there. Even if they didn't agree, I would be certain of my Dx simply because of the sure knowledge of myself over all these years, and past events which show that (a) I am emotionally unstable, and (b)I will do anything to avoid being abandoned. Abandonment is my biggest fear. None of the foregoing precludes my being a sensitive person with a big compassionate heart. It only makes everything more intense. Including my sense of disappointment in a therapist I truly felt deep, loving feelings towards.> As far as being left to fend for yourself, that's a tough one. I can certainly appreciate how hard it is to trust in the first place. Not to mention how hard it would be to trust after a bad therapy experience.
>
Bad therapy experiences have to stop becoming the Norm. It has to Stop, and the bad Jokes about Borderlines also have to Stop. They have to STOP HERE. This is my mission, somehow I have to do this, to make sure this disrespect for people who are deeply emotional and passionate.> However, there are a lot of people that have chosen to do just that and they post on this board. It's a long road to peace and there are a lot of obstacles on that road, but it can be traveled.
....THERAPY SHOULD NOT BECOME AN OBSTACLE ON THE ROAD TO PEACE.
Seldomseen, you have apparently accepted the unacceptable.
> Regarding borderline personality, I don't think that is who you are at all. It may be a set of symptoms that you exhibit and need help with, but it's not the core of your person. Who told you that anyway? Was it the same T with whom you had the problems? How credible, in your mind, is that source?I've already answered this, but in case you didn't get it, it's Me, and I am extremely credible.
>
> You are a good good person that has been deeply deeply hurt.Yes, I am. By a therapist, on top of a family of origin. That is unacceptable. Why did it happen and how can it be prevented from happening in ithe future???
Sincerely,
Susan
Posted by susan47 on September 1, 2008, at 11:41:40
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » susan47, posted by lemonaide on August 31, 2008, at 16:30:09
> Susan,
>
> Working out of a client's home is possible, it depends on the problems. Sometimes that is the problem in the first place, they can't leave their home. And some severe OCD issues too.
>
>I agree, that is what I thought as well when he told me that, I immediately thought about that. And it made sense to me as well. I was surprised he told me that though, obviously he had no idea he was going to be dealing with eventual erotic transference, if that's what it was. It was transference, in any case.
Posted by susan47 on September 1, 2008, at 14:02:31
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility, posted by susan47 on September 1, 2008, at 11:41:40
Posted by seldomseen on September 1, 2008, at 14:24:26
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » seldomseen, posted by susan47 on September 1, 2008, at 11:23:23
"Hard, or IMPOSSIBLE? How can a resolution be reached if no responsibility is taken?"
I think you can reach a resolution from within yourself. I think there is a point where what he does or doesn't do shouldn't matter anymore. We have to work on ourselves.
"....THERAPY SHOULD NOT BECOME AN OBSTACLE ON THE ROAD TO PEACE.
Seldomseen, you have apparently accepted the unacceptable"No, therapy shouldn't be. But it has been for you and I'm so sorry. It should never be that way.
Susan, I work with big cats. Big wild cats. I love the tigers, but think the leopards are the most stunning creatures of all. Very dark, very passionate, very intense. Leopards will "see red" however, and by that I mean they lose all sense of awareness to the point they don't even realize they are hurting themselves.
The best example of this comes from leopard trapping and relocation in India. With all the best intentions biologists used to lure the leopards into a cage by putting prey just out of the leopard's reach. This method had to be stopped however, because many a leopard was found mortally injured from repeatedly lunging against and ramming into the bars. But they weren't trying to get out of the cage. The cats would beat themselves to death trying to get at the prey just on the other side of the bars.
They don't seem to be to uncomfortable in the cage or even try to get out, they just see their target and can't let go of it.
Tigers don't do this
Lions don't do this
Jaguars don't do this.
Their focus is on getting out of the cage.I guess I am more like a tiger than a leopard.
Seldom
Posted by Racer on September 1, 2008, at 16:26:31
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » seldomseen, posted by susan47 on September 1, 2008, at 11:23:23
> > I definately think that bad therapy can be repaired. I just think it can be hard to reach a resolution with the former therapist.
> >
> Hard, or IMPOSSIBLE? How can a resolution be reached if no responsibility is taken? The lack of responsibility leads to others being harmed. I can't sit down and pretend this didn't happen. It did. I was hurt.Susan, I'm not quite sure what's going on in this thread. You seem to be interpreting SeldomSeen's posts as attacks on you or as indicating disbelief in what you've been saying. I don't think that's the case.
In the exchange I quoted above, I read Seldom to be offering support and validation about your distress. The only disagreement I see in her post is on whether or not your recovery from that bad therapy experience depends on your ex-T saying it's his fault.
Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe there's history I don't know about, but I hoped maybe this was just a misunderstanding and that maybe I could help.
By the way, Susan -- I've come to the conclusion that my own recovery from my own bad therapy experience really doesn't depend on anything the people responsible do or don't do. I imagined myself reading a letter of apology from them, and how I would feel afterward. I realized that I'd feel as though I'd read a letter of apology -- but I would also be asking, "why do I still feel so bad?" I'd still have to do the same work I'm doing now in therapy, although I'd likely also have the added trauma of the process of getting that apology.
That may not apply to anyone other than me, but I was hoping maybe you'd find it helpful, too.
Peace.
Posted by susan47 on September 1, 2008, at 16:43:43
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » susan47, posted by seldomseen on September 1, 2008, at 14:24:26
Very nice, lovely analogy. I would like to be more like a tiger and less like a leopard, also.
Teach me how.
Take away the chains I've bound myself with, the chains of my creative heart have burst and I am bleeding to death with the NEXT F*CK*NG EMOTION,
F*ck you too, darling.
For understanding none too well, it is not your fault.
It isn't your fault.I have a Shaman coming on Thursday at 1300 hours. Soul Retrieval work, honey.
Sleep well.
Posted by susan47 on September 1, 2008, at 16:52:04
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » susan47, posted by Racer on September 1, 2008, at 16:26:31
I don't expect an apology anymore, although some kind of notice that this person who acted so stupidly, so ignorantly, wouldn't repeat that same mistake with anyone else ever again.
That's all.
Some guarantee for the wellbeing of the next guy, because the next guy could be my daughter, I mean, who knows what innocent people get hurt by a profession that claims to be healing; I'm not arguing with anyone's analysis of the situation as it relates to my own mental health; I'm against the perception that all should now be forgotten as it was only my error. My mistake, my own work that needs to be done. My ex-T had a huge responsibility that he forfeited, he forfeit his responsibility for what? So he could be saved. So he could feel good about himself, and it didn't matter how he'd set the situation up so that I was hurt, and failed badly. It's not a matter of me carrying around a grievance or continuing to be masochistically "in love" with this therapist .. those are emotions for therapy. I recognize that this board isn't therapy, although I've certainly used the Writing portion of the boards as therapy for myself.
This is about prevention. This is about recognizing what went wrong and looking at the future with a vision for doing what's right.
That's all this is about.
It's about people NOT accepting the unnacceptable. Bad therapy needs to be acknowledged or healing ... listen, lives are WASTED because of attitudes of composure over the whole damn thing ... it's utterly ridiculous.
Posted by susan47 on September 1, 2008, at 17:00:28
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » susan47, posted by Racer on September 1, 2008, at 16:26:31
It's like saying if the therapy was bad, the whole therapist is a bad person. If I were a painter and I did a bad paint job, would anyone possibly die? No. But if I'm a therapist and I do a bad job of therapy, someone could very WELL die.
This is a serious responsibility and therapists have an as-yet unacknowledged responsibility to their patients. So maybe they are patients, not clients. Perhaps my ex-T was right all along, and I am a true Patient.
Although from what I understand of BPD, it's very treatable.
Posted by Racer on September 1, 2008, at 20:11:24
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » Racer, posted by susan47 on September 1, 2008, at 16:52:04
> This is about prevention. This is about recognizing what went wrong and looking at the future with a vision for doing what's right.
> That's all this is about.
I didn't understand that you're looking for acknowledgment for this reason. I thought you were looking for him to acknowledge his errors as a way to feel better yourself, which is what prompted my comments.On the other hand, if you're looking for acknowledgment in order to keep him from hurting others, the state licensing board is probably the best way to go. It's one of those things that is a real gamble -- what I was told is that complaints come in, they're read by an advisor who decides whether or not they require a full investigation, and then are either investigated or filed away. The thing is, even if a complaint isn't investigated right away -- which is often the case -- if a number of similar complaints come in about someone, that will prompt an investigation.
It sounds as though you've gotten upset with me, and I'm very sorry that is the case. I am the last to say that mental health treatment can't cause major damage -- I know better.
Good luck.
Posted by susan47 on September 2, 2008, at 9:51:47
In reply to Ah, this is what I didn't understand » susan47, posted by Racer on September 1, 2008, at 20:11:24
You understand. No, I realize I'm still on the road to mental health; but I see what happened, I can see the roadblocks to mental health really well in retrospect.
My therapist was one of the roadblocks, but a HUGE one, as well as being a catalyst. He could have been a catalyst and a healer. It was preventable. My slide towards the hospital was preventable.It is really upsetting to know he probably still to this day would deny any of his part in the role he actually did play.
How many other therapists are there doing daily damage like this one did??? Just read the boards, just read the boards. Read a few years back. I still haven't gotten an answer from anyone on Jada. I AM NOT SAYING MY T TOUCHED ME IN ANY WAY OTHER THAN EMOTIONALLY AND WITH HIS EYES ... staring at a patient's breasts when she is stretching ... it's okay, he's a guy he's wired that way, right? I mean, it is true isn't it? How can a female patient who's got rape in her past complain about where a therapist puts his eyes? How ridiculous is that? It's the same as him staring pointedly at my crotch when I sat cross-legged (I had striped pants on) ... he probably wouldn't even remember doing that although I think he did it purposely at the time. To make some kind of point. Like maybe I was being suggestive. Would that have been his point? He would have been incorrect. How can I complain about those things, although they affected me deeply at the time. Seeing I was in therapy with him. Seeing as how he also didn't have a clue I had any real issues, although he should have had, by then. He had had plenty of clues I'm sure. How can a borderline hide? Give me a break.
>
> It sounds as though you've gotten upset with me, and I'm very sorry that is the case. I am the last to say that mental health treatment can't cause major damage -- I know better.
>
> Good luck.Racer, I'm not at all upset with you. I'm not really upset with anyone, only myself for not knowing better all along about my T, and about the profession, how closed it is to actual good change. But how would I know unless I actually wrote up a formal complaint?
I don't know. I really don't know. Seldomseen's attitude seems to be that I'm fighting paper tigers.
Which isn't the case. Although Seldom seems to have an insider's point of view, and is probably trying to save me a hassle and that's the attitude that tells me right there that it's useless.
I have to get over it on my own, somehow. By talking with enough people about it, I may be able to get past my anger into healing, real healing, for my marihuana habit as much as anything else, for the habits this T sparked and just didn't know or care any better. How can you be angry with someone for not caring? It's like getting angry with the devil for being the devil.
Posted by Nadezda on September 2, 2008, at 9:56:40
In reply to Re: Ah, this is what I didn't understand, posted by susan47 on September 2, 2008, at 9:51:47
I wondered what had actually happened with your T, Susan.
If you were to describe it factually and without adding the feelings you had, could you say exactly what happened that has made you so upset?
Susan
Posted by susan47 on September 2, 2008, at 10:16:33
In reply to Re: Ah, this is what I didn't understand » susan47, posted by Nadezda on September 2, 2008, at 9:56:40
Wow, a Real Susan! Susan's not my real name as a matter of fact I have posted my real name with a pseudo-spelling on the boards.
So, of course I could. I have stated it clearly in posts on other threads above, at least I hope I have. I have to get my son ready for school but I will write again.
Posted by Nadezda on September 2, 2008, at 10:29:21
In reply to Re: Ah, this is what I didn't understand » susan47, posted by Nadezda on September 2, 2008, at 9:56:40
It maybe just be me, but I'm having a hard time knowing exactly what happened. Maybe if you put it in sort of neutral language, I could feel more that I understood.
It helps me sometimes if I read a more emotionally neutral description.
Nadezda
Posted by susan47 on September 3, 2008, at 15:35:31
In reply to Re: Ah, this is what I didn't understand » Nadezda, posted by Nadezda on September 2, 2008, at 10:29:21
but I've decided if you're really interested, it would be better if you just asked me questions on anything you're not clear about, one question at a time and I would answer as consicely as I could without having emotions enter into it.
Emotions are my anathema.
This is the end of the thread.
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