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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jammerlich on July 31, 2007, at 12:24:57
Can anyone come to chat?
Posted by Dinah on July 31, 2007, at 12:26:57
In reply to I talked to T today., posted by jammerlich on July 31, 2007, at 12:24:57
I can for a bit.
Posted by muffled on July 31, 2007, at 21:56:14
In reply to I talked to T today., posted by jammerlich on July 31, 2007, at 12:24:57
this sounds real hard.
Hope it gets sorted out one way or another.
Sooner rather than later.
I admire you and your T trying to be honest. Thats real good.
Muffled
Posted by jammerlich on August 1, 2007, at 8:38:29
In reply to ((((((((((((((Jammer)))))))))))))))), posted by muffled on July 31, 2007, at 21:56:14
She didn't say a lot. She said she has held the boundaries firmer than when I saw her the first time. I'm glad she admitted to it. I've felt it since day one of going back to her and I think it probably has a lot to do with why I feel pushed away. It's really painful to go backwards like that. If you ask me, as soon as I came back, she should have been very clear about how things would be different. I can't say for sure what I'd have done; but, I think that's something that should have been out in the open.
I'm not sure where it fit in with everything (probably w/ the firmer boundaries), but she also brought up some of her memories of when I saw her the first time. She said she remembered sitting with me on the sofa and how I wanted her to put her hand on my shoulder. If true that I asked her to sit with me, and she did a whole lot of the time; but, there were times when SHE offered, too. I wonder if she remembers that? As far as the hand on the shoulder thing, that was all her. As I told her yesterday, "I never asked you to do that." And I didn't. I'm so confident of that, I'd bet everything I own on it. It's something I remember very distinctly because I thought it was a "real" and human thing to do and I appreciated the respect she showed in asking before she did it. It's been a warm memory for me. But now, she sees it as something I asked for that was a bad thing, and it's turned into something ugly. And I feel angry that she doesn't remember who did what.
A couple of other things I remember.... She said my calling hasn't been out of line. I pretty much knew that and it really wasn't the point. I'm not so concerned about the now. It's more about would happen if I went deeper. She also said the place I work on those issues should feel safe and comfortable to me.
All in all, she really didn't say much and I think she didn't want to. It seemed like she was choosing her words very, very carefully. She asked if I needed to be "done with it" right then. I said, ideally I'd like to know; but, if she needed time to think, I wanted her to have it. She said she did and that she didn't want to flip flop on me. So, I'll find out at my appt. tomorrow. I just don't feel very hopeful though. And the tears have been pretty constant since I left her office yesterday.
This hurts so very much.
Posted by Honore on August 1, 2007, at 10:09:37
In reply to What happened, posted by jammerlich on August 1, 2007, at 8:38:29
Jammer, I'm so so sad this is how she responded.
I really feel terrible that your T wants to keep the boundaries "firmer" this time. But I get upset when I hear you turn that on yourself. It's not true; it's not right-- and it's damaging to your heart and spirit. I don't want you to do that to yourself.
It's where you say-- "now, she sees it as something I asked for that was a bad thing, and it's turned into something ugly"--
This just isn't true. I wish for your sake, you didn't feel that. She's not saying it was a bad thing; she's not saying it was wrong. What she's saying is that she personally, for whatever reason, now doesn't feel comfortable doing it; or fears that it wasn't in your best interest. I don't know the reason for that.
What I know is that you're making a false equation, between what she is doing now=what is "right" and if you want or need more,you're bad and must be ashamed and feel horrible about yourself; and worse than that, no one will ever be able to meet your endless and bottomless horrible needs. None of that is true.
This is all about one person. Maybe it fits in with your history and that pain that you carry from earlier times. But what she's doing now is what SHE needs given her limitations and the situation overall.
Her limitations do not define what's good or bad; they just say what she, in her heart, can handle. What she can handle is only that-- what one person, with her history and her strengths and flaws, can do--now.
Not what is good, or right, not what you're allowed to feel. Please remember that, if you possibly can. You're more than okay. You're a very good person, who has needs that deserve to be met, and struggles that deserve to be respected and engaged with.
I do think she respects you; she just isn't able to give you what you need.
I know what she's said hurts terribly. I don't mean to that you shouldn't be hurting and that this isn't painful and disappointing and a very big loss of the hopes you had/have for this relationship.
Where I want to put a red flag, is only where you say that she's saying you were bad, or that, beyond that, that you are bad-- I don't believe she's saying that-- or that she's saying that her memory that you asked means it was wrong to ask. It's not that important who asked. Her gesture was warm and real and human. She just isn't sure that she can do that now-- and that's what very sad.
And moreover, although it matters tremendously how she feels about it-- because it is what you need-- what's sad is only that-- because I can tell you, your needs aren't bad, or unfillable. You will find the right T. Even if it takes time and is hard. Even if it isn't this woman, whom I know you care very much about.
Honore
Posted by TherapyGirl on August 1, 2007, at 18:21:55
In reply to What happened, posted by jammerlich on August 1, 2007, at 8:38:29
I'm so sorry, Jammer. I, too, wish she had been more forthright with you from the beginning so that you could have made a more informed choice.
I think it's interesting that she remembers the shoulder thing differently. I wonder if she was so tuned in to your hurt and pain that it *felt* like you were asking her to do that and in her memory you did. You know what I'm saying?
But I really, really hate when Ts won't say what they mean and mean what they say. Sometimes I tell my T to "stop talking therapy-talk to me." And God knows, we've had our share of these kinds of conversations recently, where I try to get her to admit and commit to something and she won't. It's very frustrating.
But I'm not ready to give up yet. I think maybe you're not either, as painful as this is. I hope things will be clearer after tomorrow.
But it sucks right now and I'm sorry.
Posted by jammerlich on August 2, 2007, at 15:42:54
In reply to Re: What happened » jammerlich, posted by TherapyGirl on August 1, 2007, at 18:21:55
And I am hurting and very, very sad.
Posted by TherapyGirl on August 2, 2007, at 15:55:46
In reply to I'm not seeing her anymore, posted by jammerlich on August 2, 2007, at 15:42:54
I'm so sorry. I can imagine the hurt.
Please share what happened when you can. In the meantime, we're all here for you.
((((((Jammerlich)))))))
Posted by Dinah on August 2, 2007, at 17:23:27
In reply to I'm not seeing her anymore, posted by jammerlich on August 2, 2007, at 15:42:54
Posted by annierose on August 2, 2007, at 17:26:53
In reply to I'm not seeing her anymore, posted by jammerlich on August 2, 2007, at 15:42:54
Leaving a therapist and coming back and then leaving again ... feels so painful. Don't personalize her response that it is about you. It's about her and her alone.
What has changed from the first post to now? Did you talk again?
In my short history at babble, there have been a lot of successful changes in therapists. For whatever reason, the babbler or the therapist, have ended one relationship and the babbler has gone onto a much more rewarding therapeutic relationship. So if this is indeed where you are at, don't think that this is the only person who will take time to understand you or help you ... maybe she isn't the therapist for you ... and the next therapist you try is.
I hope you are okay. I'm thinking about you.
Posted by karen_kay on August 2, 2007, at 22:26:25
In reply to I'm not seeing her anymore, posted by jammerlich on August 2, 2007, at 15:42:54
you know where i am dear.
kk
Posted by jammerlich on August 5, 2007, at 16:21:05
In reply to (((((jammer))))), posted by karen_kay on August 2, 2007, at 22:26:25
I really, really appreciate all the support. There are moments I don't think I could survive without you guys here understanding how big a deal this is. I just can't talk about it, yet. It's still too raw.
Posted by TherapyGirl on August 5, 2007, at 16:40:36
In reply to Thanks so much, everyone., posted by jammerlich on August 5, 2007, at 16:21:05
Talk about it whenever you want and/or need to, Jammer.
But thanks for letting us know you're okay. We're all thinking about you, Hon.
Posted by OzLand on August 5, 2007, at 21:59:19
In reply to Thanks so much, everyone., posted by jammerlich on August 5, 2007, at 16:21:05
jammer; I am so sorry. I had a similar experience with my previous therapist who wanted me to find someone else because I got angry with him. So, I tried not to be angry again and be the good little patient and do what ever he wanted me to including the damn ECT. Anyway, even after all that, he turned on me again. He had always said it was okay to call him, to email him about matters like Rx or appt. times, etc, and he never charged me extra for this. Then, after I could not contain myself and was angry about the ECT and said that I thought anyone who did ECT (he used to be the ECT guy at U of C), was sadistic. He then yelled at me, and I mean yelled and said he was NOT sadistic, etc. I started to unravel and had to look at a spot on the wall as I felt I was being "abused." I told him I was dissociating, and his comment was that it was okay for me to do that; he said it was normal. Well, I know better than that. For me it was/is not normal, and after two years I would think he would know too--especially since I bore my soul to him. OUt of nowhere he started to charge me for messages I left on the phone or emails or even journaling I did and gave him copies. I was shocked.
So, I knew I had to find someone else, and I was so hurt; I could not stop crying--day and night. I found who I thought might be a good therapist from researching him, and I called to make an appointment. I was shocked that he actually made an appt. with me, and I thought it was just for deciding if he could work with me or not and whether he would want to. He said no; he wanted to work with me, and of course I questioned his sanity. We spent several sessions going over what happened with my previous therapist. He is a very seasoned analyst with 30 years of experience dealing with folks who have csa and other trauma in their history, dealing with eating disorders, and dealing with bipolar disorder. So re my csa, he knows what he is doing, and he is actually doing therapy with me rather than just listeing and making comments once in awile or giving his opinion. This is what my old therapist did, and it persisted for two years that he thought I should do ECT. When I told him (my old therapist) I found someone else to see and had already seen the person one time and felt this was better for me, he then acknowledged that he was wrong about the dissociating stuff.
Bottom line, I still care about my old therapist, but I can see that my current (new) therapist is going to be and already is (after 3 months) more of what I need in terms of doing therapy. He is well trained in terms of boundaries, etc. I am very happy with him, and ironically he wants me to say when I am angry with him. I have , and he does not react in kind. I think I am still testing the waters though.
So, it sounds like your therapist did violate boundaries, and then when you went back, she decided she made a mistake and decided to have stricter boundaries. Too bad she could not own up to her part and explain this to you. Of course you would be confused and hurt. I know this hurts something awful, but I don't know that her owning up to her part in messing up things for you would leave you feeling any better.
I still miss my old therapist, and I would like for him to be happy for me that I found someone who can truely help me. I don't know what he would have to say. He commented when I said who I was going to see that my therapist has an excellent reputation in the area. He also almost cried when we parted for the last time; I could tell, and he almost gave me a hug and thought better of it at the last minute and just grabbed my upper arms with his hands and then let go really quick.
I wish you could see my new therapist. You would feel so much better. I want everyone who ends up with a badly behaving therapist who they thought was doing right by them and was not to be able to find one that is really good and really helps. I most certainly wish this for you. That person is out there!!!
OzLand
Posted by Honore on August 5, 2007, at 22:27:24
In reply to Re: Thanks so much, everyone. » jammerlich, posted by OzLand on August 5, 2007, at 21:59:19
Ozland may very well be right, Jammer, in saying that your T may have felt that she hadn't maintained appropriate boundaries earlier, and perhaps worried that this had caused not only the premature and traumatic ending, but some of the depression you felt toward the end of things.
I feel strongly myself that she should have taken responsibility and explained this to you, much much more quickly. Again, IMO, she should have realized that when a T radically changes the rules, and the person is responding badly to that-- as I would hope she was aware after some time-- you have to do more than act as if nothing has happened. I don't know what she maybe have felt she was doing, actively to redress the situation-- but from your reactions, it absolutely wasn't enough. In this instance, while an explanation might not have made the relationship possible, it would have prevent a lot of suffering and, it seems, greater traumatization. I wish she had taken a stand against that.
So if she's said something along those lines to you-- or has said something about your needs-- I truly hope you can see that it doesn't mean anything about you or your needs; it means that she isn't the right T, that she can't communicate in a deep way, that you can take in, that your needs are okay, more than okay-- that they are important and that you have the right to have the essential ones met. I very much believe that you can find what you're looking for.
I'm terribly sorry that you had to go through whatever it is. But you really can and will find the right T-- and you'll realize more clearly some day that, while this is very very painful and difficult, there is something good on the other side of this loss, or sense of disappointment--
I hope and wish that that will be soon. You were right to bring up what you brought up-- I hope you can try not to regret it in every sense-- even if you feel terrible regrets and self-blame, as well as other things now.
Perhaps this isn't on-target about what happened, but if it is, I hope you're safe and taking care of yourself
Honore
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