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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 5 of 5. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 64bowtie on May 24, 2004, at 13:46:52
...that we are so confused about what depression really is.
(I'm only reporting what has been shared in the past.)
* * * * * * * * * *
Some think it's not getting our own way or not getting what we want when we want it. Is it un-met expectations, over and over again? Some accuse drugs, booze, and rock-n-roll. Is it because we're just toooo dumb to know better? Some accuse us because that's how they feel about themselves. Is it anger turned inward on us?
* * * * * * * * * *
(I'm only reporting what has been shared in the past.)Yet, depression has become big-business, literally. The inevitablility of "middle-aged" depression for baby-boomers has become a marketing windfall for the meds-folk and their factories.
Some animals seem to suffer depression, even in the wild. They have been observed to just wonder off and die, seemingly otherwise healthy by testing vets.
And I have met elderly folks who claim they haven't had time to be depressed. I believe that. They claim to keep busy with new stuff, all the time. Their visual-cortex is processing new scenery every moment. Survival kicks-in and they become busy processing the new stuff. We can learn an aversion strategy that works like that. Perhaps that's what my elderly acquaintances were reporting over the years, an aversion strategy.
Internal-conflict, left unresolved can be seen to eventually become depression. Meds buy us time away from the conflict. Run outta meds? Poof! ...and the depression returns, right after the reappearance of the yet un-resolved internal-conflict.
Let's see. Conflict is disharmony between two entities at the level of motives (investment in feelings) or opinions (story about feelings). For internal-conflict, we're it! ...so the story is that we can be "over-invested in our feelings" becomes depression, perhaps? Does that make sense.
We start feeling crumby just about the time all fails to improve as we might have hoped it would. If this is layer upon layer inside layer, I see a maze of "over-invested feelings" I can't get out of (like the mazes at the fun-park).
Depression didn't just happen yesterday. If I have it, I had to work at it. But, I can fix whatever I break, so I can extinguish those feelings of depression. Now, Which are the best tools for the job?
Let me at 'em!(the tools)
Rod
Posted by bell_75 on May 25, 2004, at 6:17:54
In reply to What's really depressing is..., posted by 64bowtie on May 24, 2004, at 13:46:52
Just before I came online and read this post I was sitting on my bed reading a book (in fact the book on 'overcoming social anxiety' that my therapist gave me to read) and i heard on the headlines of tonight's a current affairs show a story is coming up called "the cure for depression".
When i heard the words simply put as "the cure for depression" my skepticism and empirical knowledge instantly kicked in as i thought "there will never be a cure for depression". I know this pessimistic viewpoint could be seen as harmful to the psycho-babble community but I don't post this thought here in an attempt to dishearten depression sufferers moreso hope for some empathy from others who have known the overwhelming 'shackled' feelings of there being no 'end' in sight just eternity.
I've suffered from depression for quite some years now and have posed similar questions to yours, myself.
Your mention of internal conflict and its relation to depression brought home to me the fact that I have a continuance of internal conflict within me that I believe is hindering my recovery of depression. I wont turn this into a therapy session about moi :P I've had plenty of those in the other psycho-babble world (within my therapist's office).
From my experience, depression gives me the continual feeling of being trapped. Although I have not experienced it myself, I can relate this 'trapped'state to the mind of a person with Autism.
My therapist once explained the impact of negative thoughts about oneself to the life of a depressed person and a 'non-depressed' person.
In both depressed people and non-depressed people, 33% of all thoughts are negative thoughts about yourself. The only difference between the depressed and non-depressed is that depressed people believe and "buy" what they are saying to themselves whereas a person without depression somewhat takes it with a grain of salt and does not dwell on these thoughts or believe them to be 100% true. (this was in my CBT work in therapy). I found the distinction between depressed and 'non-depressed' people to be of more interest to me that the percentage and the whys. This is because I thought "how do you come to know/diagnose someone as being non-depressed?"
Sure there's a DSM-orientated criteria for depression that sorts the depressed people from everyone else, but what about the world outside the therapist's office and the people that have never been to therapy. How do they know?
I guess what I'm trying to say is, what is it like being a non-depressed person? do these people know how their lives are different to people who have depression?
I understand that my memory has conveniently erased (or blurred) any happy memories I have of my past and any recollection of pre-depression days to further support my own validation of my depression so I'm not completely naive that I can say I've been depressed from the day I was born.
I havent yet I can't remember even if I try to recall what it felt like and when it was that i was not depressed.
However, when I put my diagnosis aside I feel I still don't know who I am today and exactly what depression looks like. I admit at times I subject myself to the stigma I so often rebel against when I wish, as others have, that there could be an x-ray of the mind and you can point to an exact spot on it and say "see that there...thats depression". I'd feel relief in being able to see a "picture" of depression and have one less questions to ask. We could all swap x-rays and maybe babble could have a whole board dedicated to mental ilness 'x-rays'.
Alas I, like everyone else, stumble across questions in my life that dont have exact answers written in black and white for me just to ease my mind.
I hope my 2 cents (and then some) didn't stray too far from my original intent to share with you my opinion on what depression is and where it could (not a definite *does*) come from.To give a suggestion to your question 'Which are the best tools for the job?', from reading your thought-provoking post and writing this somewhat lengthy but relevant reply I believe this is one excellent tool that luckily is at our avail.
Psycho-babble is full of people that know all the lows and can share all the highs as well. People with beautiful souls, compassion and the willingness to read and share alike.When you come across more tools to assist you in this quest, can the entire psycho-babble community share them with you? :)
Its true, there's always strength in numbers.
~Michelle
Posted by 64bowtie on May 25, 2004, at 15:26:16
In reply to Re: What's really depressing is...(long) » 64bowtie, posted by bell_75 on May 25, 2004, at 6:17:54
Posted by 64bowtie on May 25, 2004, at 15:49:47
In reply to Re: What's really depressing is...(long) » 64bowtie, posted by bell_75 on May 25, 2004, at 6:17:54
>This is because I thought "how do you come to know/diagnose someone as being non-depressed?"
> Sure there's a DSM-orientated criteria for depression that sorts the depressed people from everyone else, but what about the world outside the therapist's office and the people that have never been to therapy. How do they know?
<
<<< First, thank you for your thoughts... Also, please note that in the DSM IV, Depression is largely "lumped" under "Affective Disorders". Someone, with their helmet on straight, saw affect as a definitive component common to most manifestations of reported depression. Please look up [affect] in the dictionary. To those not struggling with the distractions of multi-generational and multilayer dysfunction at the roots of their depression, the definition of the word [affect] can add clarity.> I guess what I'm trying to say is, what is it like being a non-depressed person? do these people know how their lives are different to people who have depression?
>
<<< Like you say so clearly, depression can be an entrapment. Those not struggling affective disorders, report a relative freedom. Those truly recovered, I don't have a good 'yardstick' for 'truly recovered' other than by report, tend to honor and exult their newfound freedom from on-high. Perhaps it is troubling to those that share here that I honor my freedom and happiness. I counter with the question, "If no-one can recover, why try?"Thanx again, Michelle
Rod
Posted by bell_75 on May 26, 2004, at 2:11:07
In reply to Re: What's really depressing is...(some notes) » bell_75, posted by 64bowtie on May 25, 2004, at 15:49:47
"Please look up [affect] in the dictionary. To those not struggling with the distractions of multi-generational and multilayer dysfunction at the roots of their depression, the definition of the word [affect] can add clarity."
Affect:
1. To have an influence on or effect a change in.
2. To act on the emotions of; touch or move.
3. To attack or infect, as a disease: Rheumatic fever can affect the heart.
n. (Psychotherapy) The emotional complex associated with an idea or mental state. In hysteria, the affect is sometimes entirely dissociated, sometimes transferred to another than the original idea.Sometimes I see depression as not merely a collection of emotional feelings but just something that consumes my whole self from head to toe. Sort of like how a disease like HIV/AIDS affects every drop of blood and fluid in the human body, I see depression and mental illness in general as affecting the mental 'blood' of the mind and the entire person.
When I did breathing technique work for anxiety with my therapist we practiced taking a deep breath then breathing out a black cloud that comes from the tip of our toes to the top of our head as though to expell every drop of anxiety throughout the entire body. Depression works just like that in my opinion, a person becomes full of a range of emotion from a dull saddness to the lack of desire to live and the more severe it is the more it grows to fill the body and its limbs.
This is all of course my humble opinion, I have no formal training in psychotherapy and I purely state my opinions of mental illness from my own experiences."I honor my freedom and happiness. I counter with
the question, "If no-one can recover, why try?" "I'm so glad that you have that honour and can voice it. Hold onto that and take it with you through life because its special. You deserve this and more in life.
Although (like most things) I can be skeptical about trying for something which seems either so out of reach or isn't guaranteed (eg recovery) but at times I console myself with the saying:
"that which does not kill me only makes me stronger". From what I've experienced medication, therapy, speaking out about my mental illness to friends, family and babblers hasn't killed me. And isn't likely to either. And yes it has made me stronger. It hasn't been easy and no one told me it would be but therapy in particular has made me a stronger person. I continue to surprise myself everyday and see how much I have underestimated myself in the past.
So although I often voice concern to my therapist that I feel as though I'm going to be depressed for the rest of my life, I'm consoled by the fact that talking and doing lots of it is making me stronger. So in essence, I'm make steps towards my recovery when I don't even see it.
Also my T says "well no wonder you're depressed if you believe that" with a little grin on his face. Hearing someone else say "its highly unlikely that you will be depressed all your life" or at a rate that isn't managable is a relief. At times I cant be my own therapist and see the reality of having happiness in my life.
Heck, half the time I can't see the reality of life. Thats why its a great weapon of deffence to have someone on your side who either says what you dont want to hear or what you wouldn't normally say to yourself.We're all so used to hearing our thoughts we forget that there could possibly be other ones beside our own.
Thanks for your replies Rod :D <--you made me smile today, hooray! I love to smile I just sometimes forget how to.
-Michelle
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