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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on September 24, 2006, at 15:53:56
Ok, so the claim is that gaba does not cross the blood brain barrier.
Now, I am unusually resistant to placebo effect,
but gaba seems to actually have some calming effect.Whats up with this?
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on September 24, 2006, at 17:26:57
In reply to whats up with GABA ?, posted by linkadge on September 24, 2006, at 15:53:56
It works a bit, doesn't it.
Posted by linkadge on September 24, 2006, at 18:51:38
In reply to Re: whats up with GABA ?, posted by Declan on September 24, 2006, at 17:26:57
It does, I even got a formula with no b6 just to be sure.
Someone said it was working by increasing gaba in the periphery? Didn't really buy that. I didn't know I was anxious in the periphery (?)
Anyhow, I will continue with it.
Linkadge
Posted by nolvas on September 24, 2006, at 20:11:37
In reply to Re: whats up with GABA ?, posted by linkadge on September 24, 2006, at 18:51:38
Inositol, Niacinamide and Vitamin B6 are essential co-factors for many of the functions of GABA. So it would seem to be worth combining these with GABA.
Other information that you may find useful >
"Gabapentin is a slightly modified form of GABA used as a Pharmaceutical Antiepileptic Drug. Gabapentin (because of its close chemical similarity to GABA) rapidly increases endogenous GABA levels in the Brain (more effectively than supplemental GABA itself). The main advantage of Gabapentin over GABA itself is that Gabapentin (unlike GABA) readily crosses the Blood-Brain Barrier."
"Theanine has been found to increase brain levels of GABA (in rodent studies)."
Theanine readily crosses the Blood-Brain Barrier.
I might try a combination of GABA , Niacinamide, Inositol, Vitamin B6 and Theanine one day just to see if there's any synergistic calming effect.
Posted by tealady on September 25, 2006, at 1:01:36
In reply to whats up with GABA ?, posted by linkadge on September 24, 2006, at 15:53:56
> Ok, so the claim is that gaba does not cross the blood brain barrier.
>
> Now, I am unusually resistant to placebo effect,
> but gaba seems to actually have some calming effect.
>
> Whats up with this?
>
>
> Linkadgeit must be if you feel it?.. maybe it just crosses a little , like vitB1 (I've been "into " it lately).. well it only gets trnapsorted across the gut in small amounts..by transporters.. BUT it also crosses via a concentration gradient..so with megadoses you can get more across...maybe same with gaba and blood/brain barrier..if you take a lot more than is usual..maybe its a concentration gradient thing?..although yeah, i knwo the blood/brain barrier is more impervious etc
One thing that you may find interesting is the VitB1, by injections, is the most effective thing for lowering my anxiety /panic I have come across.. i can now breathe deeply..at least while resting, feel like i'm getting enough Oxygen, AND I'm not panicing about evrything and everyone...which IS a huge relief..
I'm still a bit of a worry guts, but its more of a high normal level..I read something about B1 and Gaba too
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2819010&dopt=Abstracthttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2075726&dopt=Abstract (no idea what this means)
.. so i'm not sure if that's how it works.. it does incr serotonin and dopamine though..here's some I found..
http://tealady-health.blog.co.uk/?tag=b1%20headings
if you scroll down for serotonin (under myofascial pain) and dopamine (in CFS)and follow the linksAlso B1 is a strong antiD.. if I miss it , on the 2nd day I really feel the depression..as well as the fatigue. If I ever try to come off it it's going to be one hell of a withdrawal..what i'm hoping though is i get fixed up by it and then I shouldn't notice the withdrawal.. it's happened with another girl so I'm hopeful.
Jan
Posted by nolvas on September 25, 2006, at 6:12:48
In reply to Re: whats up with GABA ? » linkadge, posted by tealady on September 25, 2006, at 1:01:36
Anxiety may occur as a result of Vitamin B1 deficiency and Vitamin B1 may alleviate some cases of Anxiety (by activating the Pyruvate Dehydrogenase enzyme, thereby inhibiting the conversion of Pyruvic Acid to Lactic Acid - Lactic Acid is an underlying cause of some cases of Anxiety
Vayda, William. Psycho-nutrition: How to Control your Mood with Foods. Lothian Publishing Company, Port Melbourne, Australia. 1992:61.
The author outlines how lactic acid excess is an underlying cause of anxiety. Vitamin B1 alleviates many cases of anxiety by preventing the excessive accumulation of lactic acid. A study is referred to in which 100% of anxiety patients responded well (either complete remission or improved mood) to vitamin B1 supplementation.
Posted by sregan on September 25, 2006, at 16:16:40
In reply to Re: whats up with GABA ?, posted by linkadge on September 24, 2006, at 18:51:38
It had some effect for me allowing me to sleep a little deeper. I take about .25 klonopin at night and was trying to find a way to enhance that. Unless there are GABA receptors outside the BBB (is the limbic system outside the BBB?) or I've heard in some cases of CFS the patient suffers from an increased permeability of the BBB which could explain why some can benefit from GABA. L-Glutamine seems to have about the same effect for me as GABA.
Theanine definitely works for me better than anything else GABA related. On the flip side down regulating NMDA is supposed to do the same thing which would call for Magnesium and Taurine (that I know of).
Shawn
> It does, I even got a formula with no b6 just to be sure.
>
> Someone said it was working by increasing gaba in the periphery? Didn't really buy that. I didn't know I was anxious in the periphery (?)
>
> Anyhow, I will continue with it.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
Posted by sregan on September 25, 2006, at 17:02:42
In reply to whats up with GABA ?, posted by linkadge on September 24, 2006, at 15:53:56
Also Valierian is supposed to be a GABA agonist also.
Posted by SLS on September 26, 2006, at 13:14:20
In reply to whats up with GABA ?, posted by linkadge on September 24, 2006, at 15:53:56
> Ok, so the claim is that gaba does not cross the blood brain barrier.
>
> Now, I am unusually resistant to placebo effect,
> but gaba seems to actually have some calming effect.
>
> Whats up with this?
You might want to check-out how it influences the vagus nerve. It contains GABA receptors.
- Scott
Posted by Jlx on September 29, 2006, at 16:47:14
In reply to Re: whats up with GABA ? » linkadge, posted by tealady on September 25, 2006, at 1:01:36
Hi, Jan,
How much thiamine are you taking? And how much is safe? I was just skimming some of your blog and thought you'd know. :)
JL
Posted by tealady on October 1, 2006, at 3:12:39
In reply to Vitamin B1 » tealady, posted by Jlx on September 29, 2006, at 16:47:14
> Hi, Jan,
>
> How much thiamine are you taking? And how much is safe? I was just skimming some of your blog and thought you'd know. :)
>
> JL
>About 15-20mg every day or second day , if I can get away with it at present (injections of thiamine hydrochloride from canada)
I started in June .. about 60mg to 100mg every second day or so.But its very variable. Bronwyn (mentioned link under CFS on blog)
http://tealady-health.blog.co.uk/?tag=b1%20headings
took 100mg injections daily for 3 years..and was then in remission and has stayed that wau so far.. couple of years I think. She managed to return finish study full time and get a full time job and feel completely normal now..,.
IN the US they add thiamin to rice and flour so you mightn't be low.
But Bronwyn was taking B1 in a multiB and thought she was covered.. and if I am low, I was also taking at least 20mg in a multi B daily as well...and thought I was covered.
One study.. somewhere on blog
http://tealady-health.blog.co.uk/?tag=pentosemaybe ( I just made these public..werent' b4.. probably not "ready" , but oh well)
I hadn't put this up b4, as I started to look at the pathways.. but decided to work in the garden instead last couple odays and do some painting.. some outdoor funiture I bought 10 or more years ago , finally getting oiled!!
I did sit in on a biochem lecture on this last year but havent looked at or listened to it properly..so I need time to study it!I was wondering myself, with normal levels being
138 or so for pentose and thiamine reucing this to about 112mg or so in people taking B1(see pdf linked to on pentose tag).. I guess this means it activates this pentose pathway more than usual.. SO
what other pathway should we be using to not need to do this and still feel normal?
Also I found I needed massive doses of B2 and biotin and an incr in Magnesium as well..and suprise.. they are needed in this pathway..as is magnesium. I worked out what I needed from symptoms.. like cracks in corners of mouth appearing ..etc,m then found it matched those utilised in this pathway!
I could take 100mg of B2 in a tablet and urine not be very yellow!.. or still clear for first few days!
so I was using it up.. afte a while I had to reuce to just 25 mg though.
I used to get bright yellow urine just from 5mg of B2!!..so obvioulsy I wasnt using this .. and probably not this pathway much??
anyway, it sometimes is good when what happens matches the theory.I admit, I need to sit down and study this, but I just don't feel much like study at present..plus I'm overwhelmed with "chores" etc that appear to have buildt up.. sigh
I read somewhere the 'normal" injection amount for people varies from 5mg to 100mg per day. I've seen studies where they used more.. but I definitely wouldn't. There's also been deaths from injections.. they suspect anaphylaxic? so supps may be the thing to try first.
The injections appear to all have been IV's though admiNistered by docs(but its difficult to get deatils on this.. surprised??)..some suspect too fast but noone seems certain of this.. and its probably why they dropped the injections being made in OZ!
I did find 30mg daily too high for me in one dose though.. my legs felt really heavy(bottom half especially the front parts) and I'd get more wiped.
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 2, 2006, at 0:45:23
In reply to Vitamin B1 » tealady, posted by Jlx on September 29, 2006, at 16:47:14
I forgot. I had to add in calcium as well.. calf cramps at night is my signal :)
Posted by tealady on October 5, 2006, at 21:33:38
In reply to Re: whats up with GABA ?, posted by sregan on September 25, 2006, at 16:16:40
> It had some effect for me allowing me to sleep a little deeper. I take about .25 klonopin at night and was trying to find a way to enhance that. Unless there are GABA receptors outside the BBB (is the limbic system outside the BBB?) or I've heard in some cases of CFS the patient suffers from an increased permeability of the BBB which could explain why some can benefit from GABA. L-Glutamine seems to have about the same effect for me as GABA.
>
> Theanine definitely works for me better than anything else GABA related. On the flip side down regulating NMDA is supposed to do the same thing which would call for Magnesium and Taurine (that I know of).
>
> Shawn
>
> > It does, I even got a formula with no b6 just to be sure.
> >
> > Someone said it was working by increasing gaba in the periphery? Didn't really buy that. I didn't know I was anxious in the periphery (?)
> >HI Shawn,
Not sure if yu read my past above.
It mentions (in links) probably the reason for the increased permeability of the BBB towards GABA in CFS.
Some CFS respond well TO B1. Bronwyn on my blog under CFS
http://tealady-health.blog.co.uk/?tag=b1 headings
.. says its a complete cure for her..so far, at least complete remission.
I've found B1 also helped my stay asleep.. and nothing else ever has much, except oestrogen (which would incr B1 anyway as it binds it..allowing for a slower release in body so it doesnt deplete as much?, excepting if you have high estrogen(and proabably also applies to testosterone in males) as in some young people late teens early twenties maybe when high levels may bind just too much if lowish on B1.. I'm thinking this may have happened to Browyn as she didn't need any at age 25 after 3 years of injections of B1 , which would restored all pathways /levels, receptors etc)Besides helping me stay asleep (with low cortisol in evenings/nights I had no trouble falling asleep eithere and would wake around 3AM with the cortsiol rise as well).,.. but my midnight salive cortisol was low (undetectable), and morning was normal.
I've also like magnesium and taurine .. taken together as Mag taurate as well..
Mg also works in same pathways as B1.. as does some B2 and biotin and some B6.. , but Mg is used in many places.I also felt low in melatonin and was able to build back up with a few weeks (not long,) l-tryptophan at the beginniing of this year.. but then it felt like too much after a short time.
I also found that my melatonin felt at elast mostly restored on taking B1 injections. I can tolerate a tiny bit of light at night now, and don't seem to feel short.
I have no idea how this works, except that B1 does incr serontonin as well as dopamine;
same lik as above under B1 and CFS/M.E.also under
B1 and myofascial and tooth pulp pain for serotonin links.just a thought
Another friend of mine is reporting recovery slowly by incr B1 via foods ..like liver(or liver extract) and brewers yeast and wheatgerm etc(as well as a low dose multiB, about 5 times RDA).. and then adding in B3 at 100mg-250mg per day and then folic acid
He also had depression with anxiety and problems staying asleep for more than a couple of hrs at a time.
Last thing, my depression was also the high anxiety type.. the anxiety and depression lifted with B1.. not completely(maybe 60-70% better so far after 3 months of injections of B1 , as well as a multi B, biotin 5mg daily and additional B2 , B6, Mg, Ca); as some is situational I guess, but I can now view things withut panicing and think on things more evenly and without the high anxiety I had before.. I suspect I'll always be a worry guts and like to nut things out in my mind a bit.
Hope this is of some help to you or anyone
Jan
Posted by sregan on October 21, 2006, at 13:11:30
In reply to Re: whats up with GABA ? » sregan, posted by tealady on October 5, 2006, at 21:33:38
Jan,
Got your link, thanks for the info.
Shawn
Posted by sregan on October 21, 2006, at 13:23:19
In reply to Re: whats up with GABA ? » sregan, posted by tealady on October 5, 2006, at 21:33:38
Jan,
Hey, cool blog...
I read your post about dopamine. I was wondering if you had run across the supplement Mucuna Pruriens? It's a type of bean that has a high percentage of L-Dopa the direct precursor of dopamine. Probably not as safe as supplementing with Tyrosine or DLPA but if you want to see if you are deficient to test with. You'll read that in India they have been using this stuff to treat parkinsons for years.
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/CropFactSheets/mucuna.html
Shawn
Posted by tealady on October 21, 2006, at 22:37:55
In reply to Re: whats up with GABA ? Dopamine » tealady, posted by sregan on October 21, 2006, at 13:23:19
Thanks Shawn. I'd heard of it, but had no idea what it was exactly. Interesting.
Posted by sregan on October 22, 2006, at 10:02:07
In reply to Re: whats up with GABA ? Dopamine » sregan, posted by tealady on October 21, 2006, at 22:37:55
> Thanks Shawn. I'd heard of it, but had no idea what it was exactly. Interesting.
It's the real deal as far as dopamine goes. I tried about 60mg (of standardized Mucuna) two days in a row. On day two I had a great experience of mental clarity and secureness that I hadn't felt for a while. Then next morning I crashed pretty hard (anxiety and such) which is probably due to my brain chemistry although there are other ingreidents in the Mucuna worth reading about before you decide to try.
This is the end of the thread.
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