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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by saw on October 12, 2004, at 20:21:13
In reply to Alcohol Addiction and BENZOS, posted by Violet4EVR on October 11, 2004, at 23:20:39
Hi Violet
I have posted on the substance board about this and received these links on GABA regulation.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/subs/20040722/msgs/400530.html
Perhaps they will be of interest.
I am taking 150mg Effexor XR and my dependency increases daily. Sadly, it is not an option for me to take benzo.
Wishing you luck
Sabrina
(PS - feel free to chat (babblemail) about your dependency with me if you wish.)
Posted by DynaUnity333 on October 12, 2004, at 20:22:50
In reply to Re: Alcohol Addiction and BENZOS » Violet4EVR, posted by saw on October 12, 2004, at 2:16:14
This will never be told by doctors but it is a well known phenomenon that increasing serotonin levels can cause serious carbohydrate or sugar cravings (This much is well known), but many many people look for the quickets fix to rid themselves of these cravings which is alcohol.
Alcohol relieves these sugar cravings quicker than anything else available and so many people develop intense alcohol problems on the SSRI medications.Do a search, the evidence on the Net is overwhelming.
Posted by jujube on October 12, 2004, at 20:22:50
In reply to Alcohol Addiction and BENZOS, posted by Violet4EVR on October 11, 2004, at 23:20:39
I have heard that some amino acids are helpful in curbing cravings for alcohol and carbs, particularly L-Glutamine. Perhaps you can do a search on the net using the criteria "amino acids alcoholism". I don't think benzos are the answer. You would just be using one potentially addictive substance to try to overcome another addiction. Plus, I don't know that benzos would actually stop the cravings for alcohol. One of my friends, and a fellow alcoholic, abused both alcohol and benzos for years. Good luck to you. It's hard to overcome alcohol addiction, but it can be done. I did it and certainly never thought I could, or even that I wanted to. But, 8 1/2 years later, I am still sober.
Take good care.
Tamara
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I have seen some posts on this board about how some indiviuals have had success in decreasing /and/or elminating Alcohol Dependency or Addiction.
>
> I was curious as to what is the best way to accomplish this? I heard some people used Benzodiazipines such as Valium, Xanax, Lorzepam, Ativan and Clonozepan (klonopin).....
>
> Can you give me any advice as how I can incorperate these medications in order to resist alcohol and break my depdency?
>
> I am also on Effexor 75mg........maybe I should raise the dosage?????
>
> Thanks for any advice,
> Violet
Posted by mcp on October 12, 2004, at 20:22:51
In reply to Alcohol Addiction and BENZOS, posted by Violet4EVR on October 11, 2004, at 23:20:39
No offense, but I am sick of people searching for a pill to cure all their ills. It is far to common here and it shouldn't be encouraged. Look, if you drink too much then you have three choices. You can just stop and become what is known as a dry drunk. You can continue drinking and try to control it, which you won't be able to if you truly do have a problem. YOu can go to AA and become sober. It takes work, but you can do it. You and others may get offended by this, but I truly believe this and I am only saying it because I care. A pill will not cure alcohol cravings. If you are an alcoholic, then go to AA.
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I have seen some posts on this board about how some indiviuals have had success in decreasing /and/or elminating Alcohol Dependency or Addiction.
>
> I was curious as to what is the best way to accomplish this? I heard some people used Benzodiazipines such as Valium, Xanax, Lorzepam, Ativan and Clonozepan (klonopin).....
>
> Can you give me any advice as how I can incorperate these medications in order to resist alcohol and break my depdency?
>
> I am also on Effexor 75mg........maybe I should raise the dosage?????
>
> Thanks for any advice,
> Violet
Posted by partlycloudy on October 12, 2004, at 20:22:52
In reply to The problem with this board, posted by mcp on October 12, 2004, at 11:47:44
The real problem is that some people think AA is the solution for all alcoholics, but it is not. AA has a 90% relapse rate after 1 year, from what I have read (and experienced personally).
It is not unreasonable for some people to require medical assistance to deal with alcohol cravings. At least there is help for them and they are getting guidance from their doctors on beating their addictions.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2004, at 20:22:52
In reply to Re: Alcohol Addiction and BENZOS » Violet4EVR, posted by jujube on October 12, 2004, at 7:59:30
> I have heard that some amino acids are helpful in curbing cravings for alcohol and carbs, particularly L-Glutamine. Perhaps you can do a search on the net using the criteria "amino acids alcoholism". I don't think benzos are the answer. You would just be using one potentially addictive substance to try to overcome another addiction.
I have to agree with that suggestion, benzos are not the answer.
You're right that glutamine has been suggested for inhibiting the desire to drink. It works for some people, and it is both safe to use and very inexpensive. You can buy glutamine at Walmart.
Another very useful amino acid is taurine. It directly blocks glutamate (glutamate and glutamine are different substances....close, but different). There is also a drug that is based on taurine, called acamprosate, which has had some success in inhibiting alcohol cravings.
Taurine is also very cheap. I just bought 300 grams for something like $6.50 or very close to that. A half-teaspoon (about 1.5 to 2 grams) of taurine in warm water when the craving strikes should do the trick. Taurine is available where weight-lifters products are sold.
Lar
Posted by mcp on October 12, 2004, at 20:22:53
In reply to Ahem. » mcp, posted by partlycloudy on October 12, 2004, at 14:42:00
I have not suggested AA is some sort of panacea that will take away one's desire to drink. From personal experience I have also seen the high rate of relapse, but that 90% rate you referred to, if that is correct, is almost universally caused by an unwillingness to work the program. Just showing up to meetings doesn't do it. Hence, that is why I said it would take some work.
I do think it is unreasonable to think a pill will cure someone of their alcohol cravings. It is ludicrous. It is passing the buck and trying anything to avoid the hard truth. It is somehow embedded in our culture to look for immediate solutions to problems that require a lengthy, painstaking approach to a future of overall health. Taking a pill instead of facing the truth solves nothing and it only creates another addiction on top of the one he or she is trying to solve. I think the person who wrote this is being ill-served by those who would suggest otherwise and I think doctors who promote this ideology know next to nothing about addiction to begin with. Just my opinion.
> The real problem is that some people think AA is the solution for all alcoholics, but it is not. AA has a 90% relapse rate after 1 year, from what I have read (and experienced personally).
>
> It is not unreasonable for some people to require medical assistance to deal with alcohol cravings. At least there is help for them and they are getting guidance from their doctors on beating their addictions.
Posted by CarlaSF on October 12, 2004, at 20:22:53
In reply to Alcohol Addiction and BENZOS, posted by Violet4EVR on October 11, 2004, at 23:20:39
Alcohol detox is usually treated with benzo type medicines, particularly, Serax. This is prevent seizures or DT's during the early detox phase. Alcohol detoxification can be dangersous and should be done under a doctor's supervision. Maybe your should call your doctor and explain your situation.
Good luck!
Posted by partlycloudy on October 12, 2004, at 20:22:54
In reply to Re: Ahem.--partlycloudy, posted by mcp on October 12, 2004, at 15:06:06
Well, here is some feedback then, for your post. Let me suggest that your opinion is very strongly worded for someone like me (I am the Babble-Wimp champion). Also, someone who knows they have an addiction problem is here looking for help, not a panacea. We wouldn't be here if we weren't suffering in the first place. Just as we are all different, we all respond to treatment differently.
Posted by jujube on October 12, 2004, at 20:22:54
In reply to Ahem. » mcp, posted by partlycloudy on October 12, 2004, at 14:42:00
I agree with Partlycloudy. I went to AA for a number of months, and witnessed many people relapsing after months and even a year of sobriety. The emotional suffering that a person who relapses goes through can be as painful as the addiction itself (shame, self-hate, etc). AA is not a cure-all. It is only a support group, and doesn't help everybody. There is nothing wrong with seeking medical help (which could include medication or natural supplements) to help ease the discomfort of alcohol withdrawal and to help reduce cravings for alcohol.
> The real problem is that some people think AA is the solution for all alcoholics, but it is not. AA has a 90% relapse rate after 1 year, from what I have read (and experienced personally).
>
> It is not unreasonable for some people to require medical assistance to deal with alcohol cravings. At least there is help for them and they are getting guidance from their doctors on beating their addictions.
Posted by jujube on October 12, 2004, at 20:22:56
In reply to Re: Alcohol Addiction and BENZOS » jujube, posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2004, at 15:00:35
> > I have heard that some amino acids are helpful in curbing cravings for alcohol and carbs, particularly L-Glutamine. Perhaps you can do a search on the net using the criteria "amino acids alcoholism". I don't think benzos are the answer. You would just be using one potentially addictive substance to try to overcome another addiction.
>
> I have to agree with that suggestion, benzos are not the answer.
>
> You're right that glutamine has been suggested for inhibiting the desire to drink. It works for some people, and it is both safe to use and very inexpensive. You can buy glutamine at Walmart.
>
> Another very useful amino acid is taurine. It directly blocks glutamate (glutamate and glutamine are different substances....close, but different). There is also a drug that is based on taurine, called acamprosate, which has had some success in inhibiting alcohol cravings.
>
> Taurine is also very cheap. I just bought 300 grams for something like $6.50 or very close to that. A half-teaspoon (about 1.5 to 2 grams) of taurine in warm water when the craving strikes should do the trick. Taurine is available where weight-lifters products are sold.
>
> Lar
Larry,I had thought that L-Taurine was another amino which could be helpful, but wasn't completely sure. Thanks for clarifying.
Tamara
Posted by DynaUnity333 on October 12, 2004, at 20:22:58
In reply to Re: Ahem.--partlycloudy » mcp, posted by partlycloudy on October 12, 2004, at 15:12:41
I think the person who is being rather matter of factly regarding the looking for drugs is a cop out type thing is being very harsh.
Alcohol withdrawal is a very serious thing and can kill which is why Benzos are prescribed to help with the initial problems.
However protracted alcohol withdrawal while not necasarily immediately dangerous to ones physical health, is still also a vrey serious problem.Depression, anxiety, irritability and malaise that can stretch to over a two year period and sometimes even beyond that time frame, if untreated, has been the cause of many successful and unsuccessful suicide attempts.
In this regard AA has proven not to work. AA has this up themselves pompous ideal regarding using medications for the depression and long lasting anxiety that can continue long after alcohol cessation, demanding that people in the programme look to their AA partner for help at stressful times or even God for inner strength. While this can be of great benefit its unrealistic to expect this help to be the be all and end all of treatment.
People should also remember that alcoholics drink for different reasons. Some because they are lonely and having the companionship of someone who has often felt the same would do them the world of good, but someone who had an axiety condition in the first place who self medictaed with alcohol and now has an even worse anxiety condition having quit, and then being chastised by the group who are promoting their ability to help recovering alcoholics for looking relief, is in my opinion criminal.
There is also an underlying cause of alcohol cravings. There is an underlying physical cause of any addiction. regardless of what chemical, or food, or sex etc that someone is addicted to there is a chemical cause for it, and if found treatment can alleviate the withdrawal and any associated cravings.
For example there are recent findings that indicate the reason for protracted alcohol cravings and the associated problems may be linked with dopamine that has leaked out of the parts of the brain where it should be and has no where to go so ends upjust sitting and degrading in foreign territory. The craving for the alcohol that a patient feels isn't a craving for the drink per se' but a craving to stop feeling as ill as they do with theseodd things going on in their brain, knowing that if they can dumb themselves down enough they won't be able to feel it.There have been trials that suggest TOPOMAX seeks out this wandering misplaced dopamine and cleans it up thus relieving the cravings for the alcohol. In the alcoholic who truly wants to give up and wants to function again in life but can't seem to end their problems, if this or any other medication can help them, how dare people chastise them.
If, however, the alcoholic wants to appear to have overcome his problem, but secretly wants a replacement for alcohol then its fair to get a bit high and mighty, but to deny someone who really wants to change his life round, the help that might enable that, well i just cant fathom it.
Posted by jujube on October 12, 2004, at 20:22:58
In reply to Re: Ahem.--partlycloudy, posted by mcp on October 12, 2004, at 15:06:06
I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to be searching for a way to ease the physical discomfort of alcoholism - just not benzos. I believe amino acids have been used in treatment centres to help alcoholics and drug addicts through the initial stages of alcohol and drug withdrawal. I think that by a person searching for help, they have already admitted they have a problem and want to do something about it. By trying to address the obvious physical discomfort of withdrawal in the early stages
of recovery, a person can focus on the psycological aspects of his/her addiction. I certainly would have liked to have known about the possibility of amino acid supplementation to assist with cravings and withdrawal during my first three attempts to quit drinking. I finally did quit, but the first couple of months were painful - both physically and emotionally. I went to AA and found being around other alcoholics helpful in the early stages of my recovery, but I didn't work the program (no sponsor, etc.) and am still sober 8 1/2 years later.
Tamara> I have not suggested AA is some sort of panacea that will take away one's desire to drink. From personal experience I have also seen the high rate of relapse, but that 90% rate you referred to, if that is correct, is almost universally caused by an unwillingness to work the program. Just showing up to meetings doesn't do it. Hence, that is why I said it would take some work.
>
> I do think it is unreasonable to think a pill will cure someone of their alcohol cravings. It is ludicrous. It is passing the buck and trying anything to avoid the hard truth. It is somehow embedded in our culture to look for immediate solutions to problems that require a lengthy, painstaking approach to a future of overall health. Taking a pill instead of facing the truth solves nothing and it only creates another addiction on top of the one he or she is trying to solve. I think the person who wrote this is being ill-served by those who would suggest otherwise and I think doctors who promote this ideology know next to nothing about addiction to begin with. Just my opinion.
>
> > The real problem is that some people think AA is the solution for all alcoholics, but it is not. AA has a 90% relapse rate after 1 year, from what I have read (and experienced personally).
> >
> > It is not unreasonable for some people to require medical assistance to deal with alcohol cravings. At least there is help for them and they are getting guidance from their doctors on beating their addictions.
>
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2004, at 20:22:59
In reply to Re: Alcohol Addiction and BENZOS » Larry Hoover, posted by jujube on October 12, 2004, at 15:40:17
> Larry,
>
> I had thought that L-Taurine was another amino which could be helpful, but wasn't completely sure. Thanks for clarifying.
>
> TamaraYou're welcome. Another possible candidate is vitamin B-3. I'd argue niacinamide over niacin (both are B-3), but Bill W was a big proponent of B-3.
Lar
Posted by verne on October 12, 2004, at 20:23:00
In reply to Ahem. » mcp, posted by partlycloudy on October 12, 2004, at 14:42:00
PC,
I'm with you. I've done AA and it was a long "dry drunk". I still read AA books like "Stepping Stones" and believe in most of the principles but for me the real sobriety came with a spiritual awakening. The peace I had was in sharp contrast to the AA's days when I sat on the edge of my seat, gnashing my teeth.
As far as benzos go, many years ago I took librium for 2 years and didn't drink. I've been slipping off and on the last 6 months but I'm now sober for about 25 days.
I'm looking forward to trying Lar's suggestions: taurine and glutamine. I think my alcoholism is tied up with my body chemistry. I think there's a good book called "Seven Weeks to Sobriety" that focuses on nutrition and the chemistry involved in alcoholism. For my type of alcoholic, (allergic with Northern European ancestry) various essential fatty acids and oils were very important and seemed to reduce the craving.
One Day at a Time.
verne
Posted by jujube on October 12, 2004, at 20:23:01
In reply to Re: Alcohol Addiction and BENZOS » jujube, posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2004, at 16:06:33
> > Larry,
> >
> > I had thought that L-Taurine was another amino which could be helpful, but wasn't completely sure. Thanks for clarifying.
> >
> > Tamara
>
> You're welcome. Another possible candidate is vitamin B-3. I'd argue niacinamide over niacin (both are B-3), but Bill W was a big proponent of B-3.
>
> Lar
>
>
That's interesting. I just read two threads from people who began supplementing with niacin and fish oil shortly before stopping Effexor and they said their withdrawal from Effexor was much easier and less painful. Good ole vitamins, minerals and supplements seem to do more for us than some people realize.Tamara
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2004, at 20:23:02
In reply to Re: Alcohol Addiction and BENZOS » Larry Hoover, posted by jujube on October 12, 2004, at 16:26:38
> That's interesting. I just read two threads from people who began supplementing with niacin and fish oil shortly before stopping Effexor and they said their withdrawal from Effexor was much easier and less painful. Good ole vitamins, minerals and supplements seem to do more for us than some people realize.
>
> TamaraI guess that's true....some people. There's others among us who believe in them quite a bit. ;-)
You are what you eat, eh?
Lar
Posted by partlycloudy on October 12, 2004, at 20:23:02
In reply to Re: Ahem.--partlycloudy, posted by DynaUnity333 on October 12, 2004, at 15:44:29
What a great post! I get too worked up over the subject sometimes, but you nailed it. Thanks so much,
Posted by Violet4EVR on October 12, 2004, at 20:23:03
In reply to The problem with this board, posted by mcp on October 12, 2004, at 11:47:44
Hello Everyone,
Thank you so very much to those of you were responded so supportively. Thank you Partlycloudy,Jujube, Larryhoover, CarlaSF, and everyone else who responded so sensitively and with such helpful advice.
I would just like to state that I found MCP's reaction to my sitution completely unsupportive, hurtful and offensive. I could not believe someone on this board could respond so offensively and insensitively.
I would appreciate in the future, that if you having nothing "nice" to say, please do not say antying at all. The reason we all come to this board is because we all have our own issues, and appreciate the support we receive.
Please use some sensitivity when considering future responses.
Thank you,
Best Wishes,
Violet
Posted by partlycloudy on October 12, 2004, at 20:23:03
In reply to MCP - unsupportive and hurtful, posted by Violet4EVR on October 12, 2004, at 19:58:28
if you have any questions, I seem to be amassing experience every day.
good luck to you,
pc
Posted by jujube on October 12, 2004, at 20:23:04
In reply to MCP - unsupportive and hurtful, posted by Violet4EVR on October 12, 2004, at 19:58:28
Good luck to you Violet. Quitting drinking is not easy, but it can be done. If you work with your doctor and a good counsellor, you should be able to make the necessary changes to overcome the physical and psycological issues related to your alcohol dependence. Diet and nutrition will also play an important role in your recovery. If you have not already done so, you may want to ask your doctor to run some blood tests. Alcoholics can be deficient in vitamins and minerals, including, a number of the B vitamins. Vitamin and mineral deficiencies can exacerbate depression and anxiety.
Anyways, I wish you well. Take good care.
Tamara
> Hello Everyone,
>
> Thank you so very much to those of you were responded so supportively. Thank you Partlycloudy,Jujube, Larryhoover, CarlaSF, and everyone else who responded so sensitively and with such helpful advice.
>
> I would just like to state that I found MCP's reaction to my sitution completely unsupportive, hurtful and offensive. I could not believe someone on this board could respond so offensively and insensitively.
>
> I would appreciate in the future, that if you having nothing "nice" to say, please do not say antying at all. The reason we all come to this board is because we all have our own issues, and appreciate the support we receive.
>
> Please use some sensitivity when considering future responses.
>
> Thank you,
> Best Wishes,
> Violet
Posted by mcp on October 12, 2004, at 20:53:01
In reply to I am with you » Violet4EVR, posted by partlycloudy on October 12, 2004, at 20:12:55
For those of you who said that you should take a drug during alcohol detox, that wasn't my point. I am fully aware of the dangers of alcohol detox. I was referring to the need to take a pill to somehow take away alcohol cravings.
I have no aversion towards medication. People in this thread made some very good points regarding what you can do for your overall health to improve the chances of success with sobriety. In terms of the depression onset with the cessation of alcohol use, I would say medication is a last resort. However,I would say that for just about any condition.
As far as the anti-med mindset in AA, I can see that and have seen it. Nevertheless, there is a shread of truth under their intentions. Principally, that you have to take a cold, hard look at one's self and figure out why you got yourself in that position. Many would argue that medication might be an impediment to that. Anyways, I think I have made my point.
Violet-I wasn't trying to be hurtful or insensitive. I just think that you need to take a good look at why you are having alcohol cravings and not try to mask it with medication. I think that would be more conducive to long term health. Good luck
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 12, 2004, at 23:32:27
In reply to MCP - unsupportive and hurtful, posted by Violet4EVR on October 12, 2004, at 19:58:28
> I am sick of people searching for a pill to cure all their ills.
>
> mcp> AA has this up themselves pompous ideal
>
> DynaUnity333> I found MCP's reaction to my sitution completely unsupportive, hurtful and offensive. I could not believe someone on this board could respond so offensively and insensitively.
>
> VioletPlease respect the views of others and be sensitive to their feelings. Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
Sharing something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by DynaUnity333 on October 13, 2004, at 2:25:24
In reply to Re: please be civil » mcp » DynaUnity333 » Violet4EVR, posted by Dr. Bob on October 12, 2004, at 23:32:27
Sorry about that Bob, just annoys me that people are often chastised for looking for medicationm that can help one stay sober. Its like a taboo, and i honestly don't see the reasons for it.
I found AA to be demeaning and i think its unfortunate that people are criticised for wanting to get better sometimes.
Posted by mcp on October 13, 2004, at 3:54:10
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by DynaUnity333 on October 13, 2004, at 2:25:24
"I found AA to be demeaning and i think its unfortunate that people are criticised for wanting to get better sometimes."
Conversely, I find it demeaning to one's self to avoid taking the hard look at yourself that AA necessitates by instead choosing to take a pill to mask those feelings that caused you to drink to begin with. I will forever contend that the former is more fraught with possible failure, but is much stronger in terms of long term success.
> Sorry about that Bob, just annoys me that people are often chastised for looking for medicationm that can help one stay sober. Its like a taboo, and i honestly don't see the reasons for it.
>
> I found AA to be demeaning and i think its unfortunate that people are criticised for wanting to get better sometimes.
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