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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by pinkeye on March 28, 2005, at 14:47:31
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Dinah, posted by Susan47 on March 27, 2005, at 12:50:14
>>I suspect the reason I want to have an "affair" is so that I won't be completely known ... I may never be the type of woman who can completely be with a man .. so those infrequent passionate nights, the stolen moments, the knowing/not knowing one another, are very very attractive to me ... and I am sorry if you felt threatened by my attitude.
Susan,
I used to think like this too - that all these not full availability and secrecy and not knowing was very attractive - but slowly I am realizing that availability and stability is what is attractive and beautiful. I wouldn't want to sleep with a man who wouldn't be available fully for me.. I used to think I would be ok with it before - but now, I am not interested in partial flings any more. I really want someone who is as interested in me as I am in him and who is fully availble to me. But I think it is a progress that I made with therapy.. as my self respect and esteem increased, my desire for all these half-way-flings decreased a lot. I agree there is lot of thrill in it, but there is lot more thrill in really knowing a person inside and out and knowing that he will be there for you no matter what, and in falling in love and staying with that person. And many times I used to equate pain and longing and suffering with beauty before. Now I equate beauty with happiness and fulfillment and stability and peace. That was a huge step for me. Now I think all this pain and longing and everything is very ugly and that makes me move away from it as fast as I can. It is only construction that is beautiful - destruction is momentary and can be done any time. No effort is required for that.
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2005, at 19:43:10
In reply to Re: tis been awhile, posted by pinkeye on March 28, 2005, at 13:58:58
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.
Posted by pinkeye on March 28, 2005, at 19:47:03
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2005, at 19:43:10
yeah i guess. I never take a hard stance on any ethcial issues in life.
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2005, at 19:51:03
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on March 28, 2005, at 19:47:03
ethical or moral?
There's a big difference.
I try not to take stands on moral issues. I figure those are between me and God, and others and whoever.
I try always to take stands on ethical issues. I can't imagine life without a stance on ethical issues. It is simply beyond my comprehension.
Posted by pinkeye on March 28, 2005, at 20:14:44
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2005, at 19:51:03
I don't know the difference too much. I think they are both highly interwined. But ohter than murder and rape and crimes like that and intentional hurting too much of other people, almost everything else can be justified given appropriate circumstances..
Even stealing can be justified in some circumstances, if the person who steals is stealing for his own hunger. Certainly adultery and things like that could be justified if the situation is compelling enough.
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2005, at 20:35:50
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on March 28, 2005, at 20:14:44
How many people is too many?
Posted by pinkeye on March 28, 2005, at 20:53:20
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 28, 2005, at 20:35:50
Meaning? How many people for what?
Posted by Dinah on March 28, 2005, at 21:30:27
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on March 28, 2005, at 20:53:20
I'm sorry. It's not important. I was just curious about what you said and how you thought, that's all.
Posted by Tamar on March 29, 2005, at 16:10:51
In reply to Re: tis been awhile, posted by pinkeye on March 28, 2005, at 13:58:58
> I don't necessarily agree with the partner knowing everything. If my husband ends up having an affair, I would like if he keeps it to himself rather than come and tell me (unless of course if it is a long standing one and he wants to dissolve the marriage. I really wouldn't want to know if he has a one night stand somewhere - and expecting him to have taken care w.r.t STD s)
I can relate to this. I definitely subscribe to the idea that what I don't know won't hurt me. If my husband had sex with someone else I would expect him never to tell me! And I hope that no one else would tell me either. But if it happened, and I found out about it, I don't think it would feel like the end of the world. Sexuality fidelity isn't the most important thing to me; I would be much more distressed if my husband became an alcoholic or started gambling excessively than if he had sex with another woman.
I think that's part of the ethical difficulty: there's a social expectation that married people will not have sex outside their marriage. There's a general belief that one spouse's adultery inevitably hurts the other spouse. If married people have open relationships they're openly flouting social expectations, but they can be open about it. The grey area is when married people don't actively encourage their partners to be unfaithful, but at the same time don't really want to know.
I find it quite interesting that all kinds of sexual behaviour that used to be considered unacceptable is now permitted, with certain restrictions. My grandmother would have had plenty to say about same sex couples, sex before marriage, consensual sex between adult brother-and-sister couples, and so on; pairings that seem less remarkable now. But fidelity within those relationships is still considered to be the ideal. I wonder why that aspect of sexuality is so important still.
Nevertheless, I agree with Dinah that integrity is very sexy!
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2005, at 20:29:01
In reply to Re: tis been awhile, posted by Tamar on March 29, 2005, at 16:10:51
Perhaps because one is morality, and the other ethics?
And how do you know who would be genuinely hurt and who would rather not know if you don't talk about it openly? Is it acceptable to risk hurting those who would be hurt because some might not be? Since the general expectation is that entering a committed relationship means entering a committed relationship, how would a spouse know otherwise if they didn't discuss it? How would the outside party know? And how can anyone decide to risk hurting someone without knowing?
I find it interesting that people who think it's acceptable would also rather not know. While there are things that I'd rather not know in my marriage, it's because I know that they aren't acceptable so I can't risk finding them out. I find it hard to wrap my mind around thinking something is ok, but not wanting to know about it.
Especially something like this, where it so often does become known. And again, there's that whole penis/vagina thing. I want to know where that's been before it comes in intimate contact with me.
But apparently that's just me - at least here. There seems to be lots of support for infidelity on the board. :)
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on March 29, 2005, at 21:02:21
In reply to Re: tis been awhile, posted by Dinah on March 29, 2005, at 20:29:01
> But apparently that's just me - at least here. There seems to be lots of support for infidelity on the board. :)
No, it's not just you! I would expect fidelity from a partner, for many reasons that I won't get into (none are religious, or societally influenced, that I know of ) I would also never become sexually involved with someone who I knew had made a committment to someone else.
Posted by 10derHeart on March 29, 2005, at 22:30:33
In reply to Re: tis been awhile, posted by Dinah on March 29, 2005, at 20:29:01
>>But apparently that's just me - at least here. There seems to be lots of support for infidelity on the board. :)<<
Not necessarily so at all. Believe me. But I can't/won't elaborate. Maybe some day, when I've matured enough to handle writing on this topic. Not today.
Perhaps I'm a coward. So be it.
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 10:41:59
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on March 29, 2005, at 22:30:33
One thing I enjoy about this board is that I get to know and care about people who have different world-views than I have. And I can try to understand them. I don't always succeed, but I can try. :)
But sometimes I find that board benefit to be so abundant that I feel a bit out of place. I'm glad to feel that I'm not a lone strange bird who wandered into the exotic habitat of Babbleland.
Posted by pinkeye on March 30, 2005, at 13:18:31
In reply to Gabbi and » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 10:41:59
I also value integrity very highly. But just that, sometimes life and wellness should come above integrity. And if it means to have an affair to make some sense out of your life once in your lifetime, it is not the end of the world. But I wouldn't support affairs per se. Except in extreme cases.
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 14:07:13
In reply to Re: Gabbi and » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on March 30, 2005, at 13:18:31
Well, if my husband were captured by Amazon spacewomen, and they held their ray guns to his head and said that if he didn't have sex with them... Oh wait, that's not an affair. (Sounds more like a letter to Playboy. :) )
Other than that, can we just agree to disagree?
Posted by pinkeye on March 30, 2005, at 14:13:17
In reply to Re: » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 14:07:13
Sure :-).. anyway, it is too hard a topic to try to convince in message boards. I am sure if we meet in IRL, I can make you see my point.
Posted by Tamar on March 30, 2005, at 16:02:03
In reply to Re: tis been awhile, posted by Dinah on March 29, 2005, at 20:29:01
> I find it interesting that people who think it's acceptable would also rather not know. While there are things that I'd rather not know in my marriage, it's because I know that they aren't acceptable so I can't risk finding them out. I find it hard to wrap my mind around thinking something is ok, but not wanting to know about it.
Well, I'm in the 'rather not know' camp but I'm not entirely comfortable in the 'think it's acceptable' camp. I don't think I could accept my husband's infidelity very easily, but I think it would be something I could forgive if I found out about it. And I could forgive it much more easily than some other things.
If I found out my husband had been unfaithful, my main concern would be whether he was going to leave me. As long as he had no plans to leave me, I could overlook it. I just don't think I would feel terribly hurt. Maybe a little, but not too much, as long as it was no real threat to my marriage. To be honest, I'd be more annoyed if he took up golf than if he had a brief affair (which doesn't make an affair acceptable; just less unacceptable than golfing, if that makes sense). But I think I'm probably very weird about this.
> Especially something like this, where it so often does become known. And again, there's that whole penis/vagina thing. I want to know where that's been before it comes in intimate contact with me.
That raises a question I find interesting. At what point does sex start? Is it specifically a penis/vagina thing? Would it still be infidelity if there were no genital contact? I know there's a whole debate about online 'affairs', which interests me quite a bit. Any views?
> But apparently that's just me - at least here. There seems to be lots of support for infidelity on the board. :)
I don't think you're on your own - I don't support infidelity either, in the sense that I wouldn't want to promote it. A friend of mine recently had an affair that led to the breakup of her marriage, and while I think her new partner is a better match for her, I found it quite difficult to support her decision to end her marriage. Nevertheless, I do find the whole discourse extremely interesting.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on March 30, 2005, at 16:10:38
In reply to Re: » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 14:07:13
> Well, if my husband were captured by Amazon spacewomen, and they held their ray guns to his head and said that if he didn't have sex with them... Oh wait, that's not an affair. (Sounds more like a letter to Playboy. :) )
>
LOL!
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 17:28:01
In reply to Re:Pinkeye » Dinah, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on March 30, 2005, at 16:10:38
I'm toying with the idea of sharing that exemption with him. Just in case he hasn't bought a Playgirl lately. :)
Such a thoughtful wife I am.
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 17:32:52
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Dinah, posted by Tamar on March 30, 2005, at 16:02:03
I sometimes worry that my emotional attachment to my therapist is an affair of sorts. I've talked about it with my husband. Since he's aware that my feelings toward my therapist are maternal, and since he's really really happy I have someone who isn't him to help me deal with my craziness, he's given me affirmative permission to attach as much as I like to him.
I'd feel not good about it if I had to keep it a secret.
(And my husband always thought my therapist was more attractive than I ever thought he was. Ummm... you know, as a source of interest for me, not my husband. But he felt better when he realized that I was being truthful when I said that that physical type never appealed. Ummm... to me of course. I imagine it appeals to his wife. I hope so.)
Posted by Spoc on March 31, 2005, at 2:25:45
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Tamar, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 17:32:52
Well you know I'm with ya. ;^)
Posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 17:21:58
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Dinah, posted by Spoc on March 31, 2005, at 2:25:45
Why do I get the feeling that I'm encouraging someone to fall off the wagon? grin.
I'm glad to see you posting again.
Posted by Tamar on March 31, 2005, at 18:09:45
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Tamar, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2005, at 17:32:52
Yeah, I think the emotional attachment thing can feel like an affair. And in my case, the attachment was not maternal at all. I had a very predictable erotic thing going on! I rationalise it by telling myself the nature of the transference has a lot to do with particular things I was talking about in therapy, and so it was inevitably going to be an erotic thing, but it's still uncomfortable, even after termination.
I don't exactly keep it a secret; I just don't talk about it to my husband and he doesn't ask, but I'm pretty sure he knows. He just doesn't want to hear about it. Much like an affair, really! But definitely not an actual affair. I wouldn't want a relationship with my T in real life. Of course, that was the subject of the original post that started this whole thing...
Posted by pinkeye on March 31, 2005, at 18:32:54
In reply to Re: tis been awhile » Dinah, posted by Tamar on March 31, 2005, at 18:09:45
Yeah, I can relate to that. The emotional attachment and fantasies did feel like an affair. And I couldn't forgive myself for a long time. But then I ended up forgiving myself and even accepting that it is normal.
My husband knows too - but not in a direct way, but I am pretty sure he knows. And nowadays he seems to understand it also. But we don't talk about it.. but I have been trying to educate him whenver possible of the attachment people tend to feel towards their therapists, and I think he realizes that was what I wanted.
Posted by Spoc on March 31, 2005, at 18:33:42
In reply to :) » Spoc, posted by Dinah on March 31, 2005, at 17:21:58
> Why do I get the feeling that I'm encouraging someone to fall off the wagon? grin.
Hee hee, but look how improved I am (yeah right!). I could have re-wrote the tome I sent you on it last week, or pasted it here, but decided not to as that kind of thing is extremely unlikely to change anyone's stance or bring up factors others don't already know. (And since few here know ME period, I assume they could have gotten through their lives without knowing what spoc thinks! HI to all peop who don't know spoc, btw! ;). NONE of which would stop me from packing a suitcase and moving onto the thread anyway, of course, much to my own increased life behindedness! ;-)
> I'm glad to see you posting again.
Thanks man! Still telling myself that as soon as any responses die out to threads I'm already on, I'm outta here. But it's not like it's within my own CONTROL or anything! ;-)
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