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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 21:32:01
I'm able to handle it all much better if I picture him alone, or--um--disabled. The minute whoever she may be enters the picture I am reduced to sawdust. I'm fairly certain he wouldn't be giving up *this* easily--even for him--if he didn't have some delightful distraction.
Attach rubber band to wrist and snap it? (anyone ever really had luck with that?)
Put hand in front of face and slap it?
Any helpful hints for getting through these treacherous mind games would be appreciated.
Posted by octopusprime on September 15, 2003, at 22:32:15
In reply to Helpful hints for stopping self-torture?, posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 21:32:01
kara lynne -
I don't know if this is helpful or not, please feel free to ignore it.
I read somewhere that it might be easier if an ex died instead of left.
So you could consider him dead to you. There's no telephone calls to the dead. There's nowhere to send the letters. Anything communication takes place solely through prayer and letters to yourself.
And you could have a funeral. Bury his things. Heck, bury a dummy that looks just like him, and stick it in a casket. Have a ritual closure where you write the eulogy and send him off. Cry with your friends around to hold your hand.
And after that point, he is functionally dead (as far as you are concerned), leaving you only with memories.
I have never tried this, but I wonder if it would work. Secretly it has some appeal. I am a big fan of rituals in closure, whether it is burning pictures or chanting or throwing rocks or whatever. After a burial you can't go back. And whenever you get to wondering about where he is and what he was doing, you put the pictures of the burial and "death" of him in your mind. He's dead to you.
If death is too much, maybe some other closure ritual? I think ritualizing helps. Gives the mind a focus.
Posted by fallsfall on September 15, 2003, at 22:46:08
In reply to Re: Helpful hints for stopping self-torture? » kara lynne, posted by octopusprime on September 15, 2003, at 22:32:15
Kara,
I like Octopus' idea of a funeral. But maybe you can construct a small paper doll and flush him down the toilet!
Failing that, I recommend Ativan.
You still up?
Posted by fallsfall on September 15, 2003, at 22:57:54
In reply to Re: Helpful hints for stopping self-torture?, posted by fallsfall on September 15, 2003, at 22:46:08
Posted by kara lynne on September 16, 2003, at 1:04:06
In reply to DON'T CALL HIM! Good night, Kara (nm), posted by fallsfall on September 15, 2003, at 22:57:54
I'm so out of control. I just can't be alone. I was ok during the day, had a meditation class in the evening. On the way home it swooped down upon me like a vulture, I picked up the phone and dialed his number. I listened to the message but hung up. It may register on his cell phone that it was my number.
I am doing everything I can possibly think of. I am really almost ready to give up. I don't even know what that would mean--I give up and actually call and *beg* him to love me? It's kind of laughable if it weren't so tragic.
I think he's with someone else, and that's triggering every infantile shred of survival jealousy known to mankind. It's ripping me in shreds. I literally pictured my heart ripped out today, and kindly asked spirit if I could have it back. I pictured it being put back inside my own body where it belongs.
But somehow it's the idea 1) that he's finally saying sayanara 2) he's saying it's because of my letter which illustrated how miserable I was--meaning if I had just been *less* miserable, maybe he would have tried harder and 3) he's with some happier, younger woman who will stoke the fire of his desire once again--and nothing is stronger than that pull. It's enough to make me want to---I don't even know how to finish that sentence. I think I'm so enraged beneath this. I just can't contain these feelings.
These men leave their wives all the time, to trade them in for newer, better models. As a woman I am entirely dispensible.
Posted by octopusprime on September 16, 2003, at 10:50:04
In reply to Oh God am I up/ fallfsfall, posted by kara lynne on September 16, 2003, at 1:04:06
> I'm so out of control. I just can't be alone. I was ok during the day, had a meditation class in the evening. On the way home it swooped down upon me like a vulture, I picked up the phone and dialed his number. I listened to the message but hung up. It may register on his cell phone that it was my number.
kara lynne, you did the right thing by hanging up. you should be proud of yourself! deep down in your heart of hearts you know you are doing the right thing. now if only we could do something about easing your suffering ...
do you think you could plan a trip? maybe a weekend meditation retreat?
> I think he's with someone else, and that's triggering every infantile shred of survival jealousy known to mankind. It's ripping me in shreds. I literally pictured my heart ripped out today, and kindly asked spirit if I could have it back. I pictured it being put back inside my own body where it belongs.good for you, you're asking for help from people and spirits who can help. your heart is back in your chest. maybe today you can ask the spirits to have kara lynne's heart beat for kara lynne?
i know it's hard. it's natural to picture the ex with somebody else. for example, i think my ex is with his ex or somebody else at work. but i have never been a jealous person, thinking those things just makes my heart feel like a million pounds of lead and makes my brain feel like poured concrete. but i know what primal rage feels like, but the one time i had it i didn't deal with it very well. be safe. talk to your doctors and ask for elephant tranquilizers until it passes.
>
> But somehow it's the idea 1) that he's finally saying sayanara 2) he's saying it's because of my letter which illustrated how miserable I was--meaning if I had just been *less* miserable, maybe he would have tried harder and 3) he's with some happier, younger woman who will stoke the fire of his desire once again--and nothing is stronger than that pull. It's enough to make me want to---I don't even know how to finish that sentence. I think I'm so enraged beneath this. I just can't contain these feelings.
>kara lynne, he said goodbye because *he was making you miserable*! and the only way you'll be less miserable is *without him*! he can't help you.
and i was the happier younger woman and i got dumped. there's no special magical powers in being younger or anything else you can't be.
acceptance is so hard, kara lynne. and that's what you're seeking. i want some too. every day, i come home secretly wanting a telephone message begging my forgiveness and asking for me back. and every day, there is nothing. and i'm disappointed and relieved at the same time. it's just weird.
pray for acceptance today.
ps - i know you can't see it or feel it, but you are making so much progress and moving forward. please keep putting one foot in front of the other, no matter how hard it is.
Posted by kara lynne on September 16, 2003, at 11:58:55
In reply to Re: Oh God am I up/ fallfsfall, posted by octopusprime on September 16, 2003, at 10:50:04
Good morning octo,
Yes, I am trying to plan as much activity as possible. I love your image about having my heart beat for myself--God, it gets that extreme.I admire that you don't spend a lot of time in jealousy. I've always wanted to learn more about that; it feels like it's not the 'real' feeling, but it's so compelling. I feel like I haven't gotten to the core of that, somehow. Rage I've felt. I don't like it, but I think I understand it more than the kind of primal fear jealousy invokes--that's what I was trying to say-- (although it sounds so trite) I guess it really does come down to that whole Oedipal dynamic or something. Oh, the joys of being human.
I'm off to therapy. Thank you for taking the time to give me such thougtful responses.
Posted by Susan J on September 17, 2003, at 13:51:37
In reply to Helpful hints for stopping self-torture?, posted by kara lynne on September 15, 2003, at 21:32:01
Hello, I know I'm always late responding to your posts. You must be a nightowl. :-)
> I'm able to handle it all much better if I picture him alone, or--um--disabled. The minute whoever she may be enters the picture I am reduced to sawdust.
<<I get that jealous type of hurt, too. But *if*, and it's only an *if*.....If there is another woman already, she gets:-an angry man
-an apparent workaholic
-a very self-centered man
-a man prone to doing drugs and all of the emotional muck that can go along with drug use
-and whatever else was wrong with him.Doesn't sound like much of a prize to me. :-)
He's not going to be perfect overnight because the two of you are not together. In fact, I'm sure there were things about *you* that helped make him a better person, and those traits, in your absence, are probably on their way down to the gutter already.
And if he hasn't been able to gain maturity, humility, sobriety, and compassion, I'm not thinking too many women are going to find him that attractive....
My ex is *gorgeous.* Weight lifter, amazing clothes, great car, great house, great money, all the superficial things women can be attracted to initially. It *killed* me to think of him with another woman. Especially since I don't consider myself that good looking and I imagined him in the throes of passion with some model-looking chick. Sux. :-(
But you know what? He's still so damaged emotionally he hasn't even been out on a date! It's been 4 months......I know he's got women throwing themselves at him. And the few times I know about that he's asked someone out, they've turned him down. He's still too much of a mess to get it right.
Could be similar with your ex, you know. He's got some problems. He's got some big problems....
And even *if* there is another woman, if he's got any humanity at all, he's just doing time with her. If you guys spent so much time together, there's no way he could be *emotionally* open to another woman.
It's not as rosy a picture over on his side as you are imagining. I've got a feeling he's in his own little he** right now....
Keep the faith,
Susan
Posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 17:29:39
In reply to The Ex Another Woman » kara lynne, posted by Susan J on September 17, 2003, at 13:51:37
Susan! More! Please! Can you come stay with me and just keep saying those things over and over again? Ok, perhaps I'm a little needy, but I'm working on that.
It is so easy to delude myself into thinking he has become perfect in every way. He *is* in recovery, which (this sounds so terrible) pisses me off. I mean it pisses me off only in that I do feel like maybe I left right before the 'miracle', you know? That whole 'we learned all over each other' thing---and now he leaves and some other woman will reap the benefit. That did happen to me with someone; he even used those words, that he learned on me. Well how nice for him, I don't remember getting paid for the job (hmmm, didn't quite mean that the way it sounded).
How are you doing? Didn't you just get into something with your ex or did I remember something innacurately--I will go back and try to find your posts, I'm interested to know.
By the way, I'm sure you're gorgeous yourself even though I so competely understand the self-image conflict. It's a killer.
No, I can't imagine that he's going to be any less self centered or workaholic, or able to connect in any meaningful way. But that sweet honeymoon period-- those blissful three months. But that quirky, charming inability to express himself quickly turns into a pathological incapability of comitting, or expressing love. And that killed me too.
My counselor just reminded me how easy it is to forget that--and how life threatening it is to do so.
Thank you so much for your post. I am going to print this one out and wear it on my head.
Posted by fallsfall on September 17, 2003, at 18:39:09
In reply to Re: The Ex Another Woman/ Susan, posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 17:29:39
Posted by octopusprime on September 18, 2003, at 0:26:14
In reply to Re: The Ex Another Woman/ Susan, posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 17:29:39
kara lynne, recovery is no miracle.
a quick google turned this up:
"Relapse rates for addictive diseases range from 50 percent for resumption of heavy use to 90 percent for a brief lapse."http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/relapse/a/blcaron030804.htm
especially when he was "forced" into recovery by external events, (your breakup), and not from internal motivation, his chances for success are not good.
you are not missing out on anything! if you were with him, you would be missing out on the personal growth you are now experiencing. you are doing better without him! please trust us.
take care
Posted by kara lynne on September 18, 2003, at 1:45:41
In reply to Re: The Ex Another Woman/ Susan, posted by octopusprime on September 18, 2003, at 0:26:14
Thank you. Keep those cards and letters coming. Actually, he first 'got clean' over a year ago (had to struggle through months of trying to figure out what the h*ll was wrong with him). But he has always been resistant--not that it's easy, but going through that first phase of recovery with someone is fraught with so much conflict. Denial, relapse, 'I can do it myself', '12 step programs are a cult'--yadda yadda yadda. Then he started going to quite a few meetings, but I think he even charms people there. He never did any step work, but he sure made a lot of friends.
I don't know what his motivation was in getting clean--or attempting to. At first he said it was for me, even though of course I knew it had to be for him or it wouldn't work. I don't see how, now that he's gotten a taste of recovery he could ever feel quite as nonchalant about going back to using all the time. I was so hopeful when he finally made the effort. But I guess you've got to have some motivation behind it or it's just more empty form lacking substance (no pun intended).
You know, I figured he'd just waltz right on into his fourth step and be on my doorstep with roses and an amends.
Boy was I deluded.
Posted by Susan J on September 18, 2003, at 8:53:37
In reply to Re: The Ex Another Woman/ Susan, posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 17:29:39
> Susan! More! Please! Can you come stay with me and just keep saying those things over and over again? Ok, perhaps I'm a little needy, but I'm working on that.
<<I think it's *OK* to be a little needy. :-) We are social creatures, you know. Pack animals....
>>> I mean it pisses me off only in that I do feel like maybe I left right before the 'miracle', you know?
<<Story of *my* life. I work so hard with my man, that by the time we've broken up, he's perfect for the next woman who comes along...(not really, but it seems that way).
>> he even used those words, that he learned on me.
<<Mine just tell me they've "matured." :-)> How are you doing? Didn't you just get into something with your ex or did I remember something innacurately--I will go back and try to find your posts, I'm interested to know.
<<I'm actually kind of happy today. Kinda weird, kinda scary. I had huge emotional crap (can I say that?) with a guy who led me on but would never date me....that's over. Last serious boyfriend was a couple years ago.
> By the way, I'm sure you're gorgeous yourself even though I so competely understand the self-image conflict. It's a killer.
<<Thanks for the thought. I'd be attractive, I think, if I could lose about 30 pounds...Gorgeous will never happen. :-) But yes, my self-image seems to suck now worse than ever...
> No, I can't imagine that he's going to be any less self centered or workaholic, or able to connect in any meaningful way. But that sweet honeymoon period-- those blissful three months. But that quirky, charming inability to express himself quickly turns into a pathological incapability of comitting, or expressing love. And that killed me too.
<<See! He's *not* a prize.....You sound a bit like me. I don't fall often for a guy, but when I do, I fall hard and fast.....for the illusion I now know....and spend the rest of the relationship trying to get back to where I thought it was.....
> Thank you so much for your post. I am going to print this one out and wear it on my head.
<<You're welcome. :-) And another poster said it much better than I can.....how lovely you look with paper on your head. :-)
Posted by kara lynne on September 18, 2003, at 12:15:21
In reply to Re: The Ex Another Woman/ Susan » kara lynne, posted by Susan J on September 18, 2003, at 8:53:37
-how lovely you look with paper on your head.-
Don't I though? I can wear it in the beauty competition with the 'other woman'. Grrrr. Hiss. Phssst phssst."I'd be attractive if I could lost thirty pounds."
That would be a good book title. We could list all our 'ifs'. I'd be attractive if__________. It's such a trap. Yesterday I was complimenting my friend on her new pants. (I must be getting a little better because I was able to shop again.) She practically launched into an entire justification for her existence: "These are the only pants I can wear. Nothing else fits! I'm so fat right now--it's only 3 pounds, but you know what that's like (and unfortunately I do, because it shows when you're small in stature). My stomach's pooching out, I can't button anything.." and off we were. And I was looking at her and thinking she looked lovely and sexy with a little (and we're talking little) poochy stomach, and she had more of the butt she's always complaining she doesn't have when she's 3 pounds less! I know it's 3 and not 30, but I think it's a sickness you can find in any body size. (Even though I think it should be illegal for certain women to complain about how they look.)Ok, for 3 blissful minutes I thought about something other than my ex! We're making progress!
This is the end of the thread.
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