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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 8:05:30
In reply to Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide?, posted by ~Alii~ on April 2, 2003, at 0:43:33
I think that even a year after her death, I still don't have my feelings sorted out enough to talk about it.
I had such great admiration for sar. She was funny and smart. She was kind and had a real gift with people. She gave so much of herself. Perhaps that was my overriding memory of her, how freely and easily she gave of herself. It was almost a revelation to introverted me.
I also remember the frustration of her friends as she kept choosing self destructive acts. And I remember being confused myself, becaue the stark truth of her self destructiveness was always softened by her way of making light of it and hiding the seriousness with her charm and wit.
And I remember the shock and horror when we realized she was gone. She who had given so much and had so much to give. I remember feeling angry that so bright a light had been put out before its time. And angry at the same sar who had put it out and who had caused such pain to her friends. And at the same time realizing the pain and desparation that led her to it.
I wish, at a year after her death, that I could just remember the good. That the ambivilance I felt was gone. But it still isn't. Not after a year, perhaps not ever. Death can be ugly when it comes before its time. Death of a beautiful young person is especially ugly.
I have had my share of suicidal thoughts. And since her death, sar and my feelings about her death have been part of them. I can try to justify it to myself still. Oh, I haven't the potential that sar did. I'm not brilliant or effortlessly giving. It wouldn't matter as much if I killed myself. Yet I remember the pain of those left behind, and it gives me pause.
Posted by Dreamerz on April 2, 2003, at 12:06:10
In reply to Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide?, posted by ~Alii~ on April 2, 2003, at 0:43:33
I also lit a candle , said 'hello' .
Posted by mair on April 2, 2003, at 12:21:15
In reply to Re: Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide? » ~Alii~, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 8:05:30
I can only echo alot of what Dinah and Alii have said. Sar was a mass of contradictions. I thought she was a wonderful writer (uniquely good even on a forum filled with good writers) - and had that unique ability to be able to convey so much, - a mood, setting a scene, an atmosphere - all with very few well-chosen words. And I don't really recall a situation when she used her superior word skills to cut someone else down. So she had this huge talent going for her and she could be wonderfully kind and giving and able so well to cross generational lines on this Board. But she was also just so fragile and vulnerable and self-destructive and sometimes she disguised these things (particularly the self-destructive part) by, as Dinah says, making light of it - turning an awful episode into an amusing vignette. So while I paid alot of attention to sar, I wished I had paid more.
There were alot of things I wanted for her while she was still living. I wanted her to appreciate how truly talented she was. I wanted her not to drink as much as she did. I wanted her to have a better support system in place (she always seemed so alone to me), and I definitely wanted her to have access to better mental health care. I used to ponder, quite alot actually, how I could help her get some of these things, particularly the better helth care part. It was pretty absurd for me to be thinking about this - I never knew her real name until we started emailing one another a couple of months or so before she died; Austin is a big place; I didn't know the name of the place she worked - I had not a clue how to find her, and even if I could find her there wasn't much I could do for her anyway. But for reasons that I have never been able to adequately explain to myself, she affected me that way, cyber distance be damned. On the morning I found out she died, I woke up musing to myself how I would go about finding her if she just never responded to an email I had sent more than a week before, and if she just never resurfaced on the Board. I got on my computer right after I got out of bed mostly just to check to see if she had emailed me. What I found instead was a message from Dinah, sent the day before, inviting me to PB Chat if I wanted to talk about her death.
Aside from the unendurable pain I felt, what I remember about the aftermath of sar's death, was the feeling of helplessness I had on account of the limitations of internet relationships. There were people I wanted to reach out to afterwards but I couldn't because I didn't know how to reach them. I get very frustrated here when someone in crisis solicits the help of people on the Board and then just disappears, without ever letting us know how things turned out. I feel unsettled when people who've been pretty active just drift off without letting anyone know they won't be posting for awhile. I've come to feel that part of being a PB participant here is acknowledging a responsibility to the other people here because while it may not be as obviously displayed, we often care deeply about those we meet. It's hard for some of us to buy into the notion that we make a positive difference in anyone's life, or that our absence would be noticed or mourned, but I don't think we're always the best judge of the impact we have on others.
Mair
Posted by ~Alii~ on April 2, 2003, at 12:42:12
In reply to Re: Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide?, posted by mair on April 2, 2003, at 12:21:15
>>...we often care deeply about those we meet. It's hard for some of us to buy into the notion that we make a positive difference in anyone's life, or that our absence would be noticed or mourned, but I don't think we're always the best judge of the impact we have on others.
Mair<<
Wow Mair. Thank you for such an intelligent observation that many with our illnesses are unable to recognize. Often times we aren't the best judges of our impact on others and to see that written out just struck a chord with me.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
~Alii
Posted by Greg A. on April 2, 2003, at 17:52:58
In reply to Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide?, posted by ~Alii~ on April 2, 2003, at 0:43:33
Hardly a day has gone by when I haven’t thought about sar. I marked the date of her suicide on my calendar because I wanted to remember it; remember her and the things she said and the way she said them. I often look back at her posts. They still make me laugh.
Posted by justyourlaugh on April 2, 2003, at 18:22:27
In reply to Re: Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide? » ~Alii~, posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 8:05:30
i wasnt going to post because i never knew her..
but i see her in all of you..you hold her alive..d..you matter so much more to people than you realize....you cant see it tonight, but mabe tomorrow..."where the hell did i put those tomorrow pills anyway?"...
you guys have a lot of love and compasion..
anyone would be blessed to know you too..
peace
jyl
Posted by Dinah on April 2, 2003, at 20:54:04
In reply to Re: Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide? » Dinah, posted by justyourlaugh on April 2, 2003, at 18:22:27
I think you would have really liked sar, jyl. She was so funny and irreverant. I sometimes wonder what she's thinking of all we say about her.
I didn't get to know her as well as a lot of people here though. I mainly knew her through her posts. I was still relatively new here, I think, when she was posting most frequently.
Posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:59:48
In reply to Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide?, posted by ~Alii~ on April 2, 2003, at 0:43:33
Alii,
I could not add anything of substance to your beautiful and warm sentiments.I miss her, too, and it is sad (in some ways) that she isn't here with us.
Shar
Posted by ~Alii~ on April 2, 2003, at 23:05:23
In reply to Re: Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide? » ~Alii~, posted by shar on April 2, 2003, at 21:59:48
Posted by paxvox on April 4, 2003, at 21:16:35
In reply to Re: Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide?, posted by mair on April 2, 2003, at 12:21:15
Mair,
Such a well-written and heart-felt remembrance of Sar. It reflects many of the problems we all have. A "key stroke away" from a thousand miles. Who really "knows" anyone here THAT well? Even those that we email separately, we try to help when we can (I thank those who talk to me, and you know who you are :} ).
But what could ANY of us have really done? I can't even help my own family members who live in my house. That's one of the things that I am trying to learn, I can't fix other people no matter how badly I want to or how hard I try. People can only "fix" themselves when they choose to be fixed. We can offer help, suggestions,motivation, support whatever. Ultimately though, we cannot live their lives or prevent their deaths.
Do we feel responsible? Sure. Do we wish we COULD have reached out and been that ONE person, who said the right words at the right time? Of course. Is it realistic to think we COULD have? No.
Is there a lesson to be learned? Probably. How many of "us" have "disappeared" from these forumns? How much do the rest of us worry? Just like a week or so ago when I asked if Susan C. was lurking about. I REALLY MISSED HER! (she said hello) We used to have some great posts here (Cam, and others, you know who you are, cause you may still be lurking here as well). The lesson I see is that we shouldn't let ourselves disappear. Sure, it's healthy to take a break sometimes, and true, some of us have issues with the administration of this board (no offense intended Dr. B.). But can't we rise above that? I have been on a least three other expat boards where there has been some effort to create an alternative where no holds are barred. Unfortunately, only a few of us participate,and most of us eventually return here, if only to lurk silently. So, why don't we use this "anniversary" of one person's passing to become the start of a truly supportive board. Call me crazy, but it wasn't all that long ago when THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE DID HERE!
I don't want to read about another death (or you to read about mine). Anyone out there?
PAXVOX
Posted by Dinah on April 4, 2003, at 21:47:39
In reply to Re: Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide?, posted by paxvox on April 4, 2003, at 21:16:35
> So, why don't we use this "anniversary" of one person's passing to become the start of a truly supportive board. Call me crazy, but it wasn't all that long ago when THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE DID HERE!
>Are you talking to the other ex-pats? Or to everyone? Because, Pax, that's what we continued to do when you all left. New faces, new names, new friends. :) But lots of support whenever I needed it, and I hope others as well. I don't know how much more supportive you can get than... Well I can't start naming names or I'd never finish. Suffice it to say the people with less time since they started posting than I have.
Not that we wouldn't be delighted to see all of you back. There are so many that I miss. Remember akc? And Penny (that may have been after your time)? And Kiddo? I really miss Kiddo.
And even some relatively new names seem to be missing, and I miss them.
But maybe that's the nature of this board, to some extent.... Nostalgia for those friends who have moved on from the board. Welcoming the new friends. Hopefully not too much grieving...
Posted by ~Alii~ on April 4, 2003, at 23:07:39
In reply to Re: Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide?, posted by paxvox on April 4, 2003, at 21:16:35
>>Anyone out there?<<
Pax,
I am WAY out there if you catch my drift....
Very astute observations of Internet friendships/connections and personal dynamics. You've been doing your therapy haven't ya? ;)
I wish this board could return to a freer state but then again I wish my civil liberties weren't being ripped to shreds by my "elected" government.
I feel stifled here and there are direct words from Dr. Bob that not all 'voices' would be welcome here which troubles me when you start tweaking with the research population (us).
I miss many names on the board as I have been a lurker from the git go and have watched so many names transform from one to another and people pass in and out on their ups and downs. Some have remained for the duration while others have been scared off by the PBC tone of eggshell walking.
I wish support could be summed up easily but it differs for all of us. A good stern talking to might be just what one needs when another needs coddling and hand holding and reassurances while in their constantly fragile state. So we are apples and oranges. How do we find that middle ground? That balance?
What an odd question to pose to a group of people with mental illnesses and mood disorders. Hah! I find it amusing. Balance. As if we're the experts on that?!
Ok....I'm a bit wound up so I'll wind this up and say that I miss what was once but eagerly look for alternatives to this less than appealing change of PB from the past. But being the past I let it go and just look for signs of hope here while waiting for someone to put together enough bandwidth and a small server to host a little party of the free thinkers who like to toss around coarse language and cultural differences liberally. Pepper their posts with, gasp, cursing! And political thought! And differences of opinions that could be worked through instead of the two year old temper tantrums that have happened on some of the board of which you speak. [self included in temper tantrum stomping off deleting all traces type of behaviour]
Have I gone on enough?
xox
~a.
Posted by ~Alii~ on April 4, 2003, at 23:37:50
In reply to Re: Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide?, posted by paxvox on April 4, 2003, at 21:16:35
Posted by Dinah on April 5, 2003, at 0:59:14
In reply to Re: Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide? » paxvox, posted by ~Alii~ on April 4, 2003, at 23:07:39
Alii, I think I got from your post that you are complaining about the management and not the company? If I read that correctly I thank you.
I always feel a bit hurt when old timers decry the current state of the board. I know I know. You probably think I'm being oversensitive. And I suppose I am an eggshell person. It's not really that I take it personally to myself.
But I like the people here now. Just as I liked the people who have left. I think they're supportive and kind and funny. And it makes me feel bad when the board now is compared unfavorably to the past. Because the posters are the board, and I wouldn't wish to see my new friends insulted any more than I would wish to see my old friends insulted.
And if the board now is poorer for the absence of some previous posters, the old board was equally poorer for the lack of some of the current posters.
So if I read your post correctly, I appreciate the distinction that it's Dr. Bob you're complaining about. Not that I wish to see Dr. Bob insulted either, but I guess that's part of his duties.
Posted by ~Alii~ on April 5, 2003, at 1:18:21
In reply to Re: Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide? » ~Alii~, posted by Dinah on April 5, 2003, at 0:59:14
Posted by Dinah on April 5, 2003, at 1:38:30
In reply to You know my beef is w/mgmt not posters sweetie (nm) » Dinah, posted by ~Alii~ on April 5, 2003, at 1:18:21
And don't forget to keep us posted on your tests. (And your really terrific weekend.)
Posted by OddipusRex on April 5, 2003, at 11:01:52
In reply to Re: Anyone want to talk about one year post suicide? » paxvox, posted by ~Alii~ on April 4, 2003, at 23:07:39
Alli could you give me an approximate date when the board was in the state you would like it returned to?
It's been fascinating watching the changes on Babble.
>
> I wish this board could return to a freer state
>
Posted by paxvox on April 5, 2003, at 20:17:22
In reply to The Golden Age of Babble » ~Alii~, posted by OddipusRex on April 5, 2003, at 11:01:52
I can answer that one for you. I think I made my first post in early 2000. I think 2000-01 was a "pretty good year" for these boards. Soon thereafter, however, a few individual personalities began to adversely affect the flow by "baiting" others into mindless diatribe. This led to most of "us" (read: Expats) to get booted, because we weren't playing nice. Some of us would do our time, then come back. Others, after several bootings, took the hint that this was not a place of objectivity. There were some "great minds" that no longer post here, who had some great information that was useful to many of us. in essence, they (like eventually me) were chased off out of frustration. Will that "golden age" return? No. Can the current board change? probably not, as the dynamics have morphed. Can the Expats return? Well, some of us have until we get booted again. Let's just say things were more of a community then. I don't "know" any of these people here now, so how can I be of much use? So, I'll just chip in when I think I can make a point, but it will never be the same.
PAX
Posted by Dinah on April 5, 2003, at 20:38:55
In reply to Re: The Golden Age of Babble, posted by paxvox on April 5, 2003, at 20:17:22
Your choice of course....
But there are alternatives.
Posted by OddipusRex on April 5, 2003, at 21:49:49
In reply to Re: The Golden Age of Babble, posted by paxvox on April 5, 2003, at 20:17:22
I think there are posts pre-2000 yearning for the old days too. I guess it's natural for people to become attached to the particular group they first bonded with. And to resist change.
My guess is that for most people the good old days would be the ones in which they were most active or when they began posting.
I'd say the board can't NOT change. But I agree that it can't go back to what it once was.
Thanks for giving your viewpoint.
> I can answer that one for you. I think I made my first post in early 2000. I think 2000-01 was a "pretty good year" for these boards. Soon thereafter, however, a few individual personalities began to adversely affect the flow by "baiting" others into mindless diatribe. This led to most of "us" (read: Expats) to get booted, because we weren't playing nice. Some of us would do our time, then come back. Others, after several bootings, took the hint that this was not a place of objectivity. There were some "great minds" that no longer post here, who had some great information that was useful to many of us. in essence, they (like eventually me) were chased off out of frustration. Will that "golden age" return? No. Can the current board change? probably not, as the dynamics have morphed. Can the Expats return? Well, some of us have until we get booted again. Let's just say things were more of a community then. I don't "know" any of these people here now, so how can I be of much use? So, I'll just chip in when I think I can make a point, but it will never be the same.
>
>
> PAX
Posted by shar on April 5, 2003, at 22:41:01
In reply to Re: The Golden Age of Babble, posted by paxvox on April 5, 2003, at 20:17:22
Yes, I agree, it was quite different then. And, my favorite period. That was back before the admin and social boards were added (the period I'm thinking of). But, the addition of PSB seems to have worked out pretty well.
I guess the important thing is as you said, to jump in whenever one feels one can add something of value.
Shar
Posted by paxvox on April 6, 2003, at 18:05:47
In reply to Re: The Golden Age of Babble, posted by Dinah on April 5, 2003, at 20:38:55
OK, thanks, Dinah for the double entendre.
Posted by Dinah on April 6, 2003, at 18:31:35
In reply to Re: The Golden Age of Babble, posted by paxvox on April 6, 2003, at 18:05:47
I assure you that it was a single entendre.
Darn, did I miss an unintentional well crafted bit of humor? Please don't leave me hanging.
All I meant was that it was your choice to not participate more fully in the boards as they are now. And that there are alternatives.... Oh I get it. You thought I meant there are alternative boards??????? Boy, you don't know me very well. Wouldn't you like to get to know me better so that you wouldn't so mistake my meaning?
All I meant was that there were alternatives to feeling out of place. Namely jumping in with both feet and getting to know the really great group of posters we have now.
Really. If you got to know me better, you would realize that I usually mean very literally what I say.
Chuckle. If I meant to say there were other boards, I would have said so. And sent you a URL to boot.
Posted by Dinah on April 6, 2003, at 18:34:43
In reply to Re: The Golden Age of Babble » paxvox, posted by Dinah on April 6, 2003, at 18:31:35
I suppose I also meant to convey some sadness that that was your choice. I know many posters who hold you in high esteem, and was hoping you would make the choice to enjoy this board.
Posted by Dinah on April 6, 2003, at 18:35:24
In reply to Re: The Golden Age of Babble P.S. » Dinah, posted by Dinah on April 6, 2003, at 18:34:43
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