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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by KB on March 11, 2002, at 10:01:36
Yes, I meant that for PSB. I know exactly what you mean - I've had friends like that, too - even though they always seem happy to hear from me when I call and we have good conversations, always being the one to call makes me feel like they could do without me, which sucks.
I gave in last night and called, since Sunday is usually our time (however brief) together - it was about 10:30pm and I was wondering whether to go to bed or wait up. The dialogue went like this
(abbreviated version):M: How's the new cat?
K: Heliotrope hasn't had the kittens yet.
M: Heliotrope? I didn't know you'd named her that.
K: That's because we haven't spoken since I got her on wednesday.
M: I"ve been upstate with my college buddies all weekend. I thought I told you that.
K: No, you didn't.
M: (to someone in the background: checkmate) I'm playing chess with my friend Jim in Astoria.
K: (Absorbing the fact that Jim's apartment is at the opposite end of the City and so M. had no intention of seeing me or calling me) Well, I guess I won't distract you from the game.
Few minutes of random chat as I try not to cry, followed by heavy sobbing once I was off the phone.
So now it seems I have 3 options:
1) have no further contact
2) write a letter
3) call and discuss it either on the phone or in person
Posted by Shar on March 11, 2002, at 12:18:27
In reply to Re: Am I overreacting too?, posted by KB on March 11, 2002, at 10:01:36
Well, damn. Damn, damn, damn. I have had that identical experience (except for the dialogue).
I hate that you have to experience it.
I FINALLY got to a place where I asked myself about the level of self-sacrifice I would be willing to give for the few crumbs of attention that got thrown my way. And, then a while after that, I decided that I deserved better than to be treated so rudely, uncaringly, dismissively.
All this was accompanied by a great deal of crying over the loss, over the 'what might have been,' over how my heart ached and feelings hurt.
I figure you can lay it on the table, ask for honesty, follow your intuition, or keep doing what you're doing. One caveat: actions truly DO speak louder than words.
One other thing I try to remember: don't cast your pearls before swine.
Take care.
Sometimes I still cry, but I'm happier over all.
Shar> Yes, I meant that for PSB. I know exactly what you mean - I've had friends like that, too - even though they always seem happy to hear from me when I call and we have good conversations, always being the one to call makes me feel like they could do without me, which sucks.
>
> I gave in last night and called, since Sunday is usually our time (however brief) together - it was about 10:30pm and I was wondering whether to go to bed or wait up. The dialogue went like this
> (abbreviated version):
>
> M: How's the new cat?
>
> K: Heliotrope hasn't had the kittens yet.
>
> M: Heliotrope? I didn't know you'd named her that.
>
> K: That's because we haven't spoken since I got her on wednesday.
>
> M: I"ve been upstate with my college buddies all weekend. I thought I told you that.
>
> K: No, you didn't.
>
> M: (to someone in the background: checkmate) I'm playing chess with my friend Jim in Astoria.
>
> K: (Absorbing the fact that Jim's apartment is at the opposite end of the City and so M. had no intention of seeing me or calling me) Well, I guess I won't distract you from the game.
>
> Few minutes of random chat as I try not to cry, followed by heavy sobbing once I was off the phone.
>
> So now it seems I have 3 options:
>
> 1) have no further contact
> 2) write a letter
> 3) call and discuss it either on the phone or in person
Posted by beardedlady on March 11, 2002, at 12:34:46
In reply to Re: Am I overreacting too? » KB, posted by Shar on March 11, 2002, at 12:18:27
KB:
Are you in love with this person? Are you upset because this guy has terrific qualities? Having him around is a constant reminder to you that you're not worth the effort. Why do that to your self-esteem? If I were you, I would not make any further contact with him--unless it's to say you're breaking up with him, and I would let him call you for the news. It may be sad for now, but find some folks to hang out with, go bowling, commiserate. You deserve someone who will give you the kind of attention and care that you want.
I guess the first step for you (rather than just saying it) is believing you're worth better.
Let us know what happens!
beardy : )>
Posted by KB on March 11, 2002, at 12:58:17
In reply to give him up!, posted by beardedlady on March 11, 2002, at 12:34:46
For background, he was my first boyfriend in 9th grade, so I've known him for 13 years and we have talked about getting married, so that makes it even harder to think about just walking away.
He's also the first guy I've been involved with for a long time (I've had several girlfriends).I emailed him a letter explaining how I felt and then took myself to the hardware store so I wouldn't be staring at the screen waiting for a response. I actually felt better just for sending it because usually I just take all kinds of shit and don't stand up for myself.
Here's the response - now what!!!?:
"I understand how you feel, and I appologize for not always treating you as the priority to me you really are . You deserve more than "scraps",
and I hope you don't really feel that that's all you get from me. You mean so much to me, and I treasure having you in my life. Let's discuss this in person or over the phone. You know, I often have a bad habit of taking for granted the people closest to me. (My parents, and other special people in my life can, unfortunately, attest to this.) I know this is wrong, and I
feel bad for having at times acted this way toward you. I respect your analogy, but don't know whether it's as simple as me coming in or going out with you shutting the door behind me. I believe and hope we can find a happy mediun we can both live comfortably and be satisfied with."
Posted by beardedlady on March 11, 2002, at 13:56:23
In reply to update, posted by KB on March 11, 2002, at 12:58:17
Well, I guess it makes a difference that your relationship has lasted so long. (I thought you'd only been seeing each other since June! Isn't that what you said?)
But as an outsider looking in, I stick by what I said. He admits he has a habit of taking his loved ones for granted. (He doesn't do this with his college buds, obviously.) I don't think I'd want to spend my life being taken for granted.
Sometimes that "comfort" with one person keeps us from looking for happiness with another.
I wish you luck in whatever you decide.
beardy : )>
Posted by KB on March 11, 2002, at 15:46:43
In reply to Re: update, posted by beardedlady on March 11, 2002, at 13:56:23
We have only been seeing each other since June (this time around).
Posted by Shar on March 12, 2002, at 14:11:02
In reply to update, posted by KB on March 11, 2002, at 12:58:17
KB,
That is a very nice response. Something one could write to a good friend. It does not strike me as an indication that he wants an intimate future with you. He's not saying he wants to be with you more, to have plans together for future times, etc. He is saying, I wasn't a good friend to you and you deserve better, he feels close to you, and wants to talk to see if there is a 'happy medium.'Is that what you had hoped for? I think it's true that at some point in a relationship one can be identified as "in" or "out" or "on the fence" and I'd think at best he is on the fence, at least as far as an intimate relationship is concerned.
Are y'all sexually active this time around?
I would watch what this guy DOES. Will he contact you so y'all can talk about it? Will he arrange to visit? Does he send another email expanding on his comments? Or does he go back to relative silence?
Is any of this what you want in an intimate relationship?
This sounds so familiar to me. What state does this guy live in?
8-)
Good luck. I hope he comes through. If he doesn't DO something fairly soon, I wouldn't hold out tons of hope for anything but friendship.
Shar
Posted by Gracie2 on March 12, 2002, at 20:17:05
In reply to His response to you » KB, posted by Shar on March 12, 2002, at 14:11:02
I'm not Dear Abby, but I've been around and I have a good-looking son. Here's my advice, for what it's worth:
-Don't push it. Don't call too much, don't demand answers, don't back him into a corner.
-Try to be light-hearted. If you're always somber and weepy, he will avoid you.
-I was raised by a feminist and don't believe in pretending to like sports or cars or whatever just to get his attention. Try to think of something you'll both enjoy, like a concert or all-you-can-eat crablegs at a local restaurant, and invite him out. Make it fun.
-I was going to suggest making him dinner, but my son said no. It's too early to be that intimate. Go out with a group of friends.
-If he calls, don't come scrambling like a puppy. Be a little unavailable.
Good luck to you-
Gracie
Posted by ST on March 13, 2002, at 6:27:06
In reply to Re: Am I overreacting too?, posted by KB on March 11, 2002, at 10:01:36
I don't know...I'm for the blunt an honest approach. Call when you want. Tell him when you need to clarify things. Be specific and clear about what you want in a relationship with him. Can he give you this? I got tired of "waiting three days before calling back" and other advice I got from women. So with my current boyfriend (with each other over four years!)I promised myself no games. I figured I'd let it all hang out. If he couldn't take it, then he's not the guy for me. After all, I'm a loud mouthed, oftentimes obsessive, manic-depressive actress who needs constant reassurances of acceptance and love. It was clear we liked each other. So the second or third conversation I told him: "Look, I like you. But you need to know that I'm manic depressive. Does that scare you?"
So anyway, I'm rambling, but my point is this: you've known this guy for awhile. Can you totally be yourself with him? Does he make you feel good when you're with him? Does having him in your life make you a better person? If the answers are yes then continue to be totally honest with him about wanting this relationship and what you need. Sending him that e mail was a good start. Start an honest dialogue with him and tell him your fears. If he can handle you with all your flaws and wounds for him to see, then he's worth keeping.
Sarah
Posted by trouble on March 13, 2002, at 10:43:43
In reply to Re: Am I overreacting too?, posted by ST on March 13, 2002, at 6:27:06
Hi Ladies,
I love reading intelligent dating advice like yours in the hope I'll get to put it to use someday, ha.
What strikes me is that both of your posts are brilliant but they seem to contradict each other, Gracie's seems to be more strategic, but Sarah's is too, her approach is just more up-front, but no less deliberate.
For me, if I had the ego-strength for it I'd go into a relationship following Sarah's tips, then if the dude started taking me for granted I would utilize Gracie's methods, not just to influence him, but to give myself the needed distance their use would engender.
The problem for me is I can't do either approach, I'm still sadly using relationships w/men as an arena in which to act out my unresolved childhood issues. It's almost like another personality comes up, and only in this situation (I don't have multiple personalities or any of that business).
This personality is based on film stars and my mom, which is redundant, as her own personality was based on film stars, where the man in question tends to get lost in a bunch of contrived characters and eventually retreats in awe to observe the plot unfold.I've read a dozen or so how-to books on relationships, but I can't put one strategy into effect, everything is forgotten and this totally inauthentic and undulating va-va-va-voom pricktease walks through the door, walks like she's f*cking, in long blonde wig and acrylic nail tips. But how can that be inauthentic if "I'm" the one doing it?
It's like my sole objective is to send a man home scratching his head.
Then I scrape off the face-paint, put Sinatra on the stereo, pour a glass of Chardonnay, soak in a hot tub, and scratch my own head, pondering my protocol, that is to say, I write a review, as in, next time try a little less spider woman and a little more Doris Day, or what-have-you, the point being *not*
did we have fun, does he make me laugh, did we connect, can we talk, but
was I sufficiently enigmatic, did I turn heads, was I intriguing and out of reach, did I UPSET him?
Believing I upset a man gives me a sort of grim satisfaction, but it's so empty and so easy.Maybe I just need more fine-tuning of what is merely an exaggeration of the feminine mystique, or maybe I should just chuck it all like Dr. Phil says, and GET REAL, walk around stark naked w/my hemmoroids hanging out of my ass like the seventh wonder of the world, give them something they can relate to. But the stubborn part of me persists in sticking up for the self-defeating, evil seductress side, don't know why but wish I did.
Goodness Gracious, this true confession seems no more unflattering than the usual, but I'm having a helluva time hitting the submit post button, don't want all you dames out there stealing my love secrets, ha.
trouble
Posted by beardedlady on March 13, 2002, at 12:14:27
In reply to Gracie ST re: mantrap, posted by trouble on March 13, 2002, at 10:43:43
I still think a dumping is in order. I would never let anyone take me for granted. I have an enormous ego and just wouldn't tolerate it. If I were so oh-my-god in love with the guy, I might let him do it once, but then I'd give him the ol' tomato. If he didn't come through, he'd be yesterday's toast.
As with my best girlfriend of two decades, I told her the way it was, and she didn't come through. So buh-bye. Is it painful? Yes, but it's a transient pain. And that's gone now too. I feel much better about myself when I hang around with people who feel good about me!
Of course, it's a lot easier to feel this way when you don't have to worry about dating! I've been married for almost nine years after living with the guy for eleven. I've been out of the dating biz for nearly two decades.
Maybe having the "I am great" attitude will keep the men from treating you as if you are anything less than great!
beardy : )>
Posted by Gracie2 on March 14, 2002, at 10:42:07
In reply to todedump, todedump, todedump dump dump, posted by beardedlady on March 13, 2002, at 12:14:27
When I was a kid I remember swiping my Mom's book, "The Joy Of Sex" by "J". Old "J" recommended anything and everything to attract a man, including:
-Padded Bra
-Wig
-False Eyelashes
-Girdle
-Tons of makeup
I was astounded. Even at the age of twelve, I wondered what what happen when the woman got the guy home and started stripping off all this stuff.
I could imagine his eyes getting bigger and bigger
as the "real woman" appeared. I could imagine him backing towards the door.
On the other hand, if I remember correctly, "J" recommended that wives go along with any kinky thing their husbands wanted to do, like wife-swapping and Crisco parties. Of course, this was before anyone had heard of AIDS or herpes, but still...yuk. Yuk! How degrading.
To thine own self be true.
-Gracie
Posted by IsoM on March 14, 2002, at 13:09:45
In reply to Mantrap, posted by Gracie2 on March 14, 2002, at 10:42:07
Just jumping in here, Gracie. Reading your post over made me smile. I grew up in the 60s, the early part of the decade with back-combed 'bee-hives' & the latter with psychedelia.
First part of the decade included everything you wrote about. I remember at a dance once, a boy put his hand on my waist for a waltz & was surprised when he didn't feel a girdle. My hair was very long & I couldn't backcomb it - it was too soft & would fall apart. Guess who doesn't look ridiculous & dated in her school pix because of this?
I was never good at flirting (hated it, I was still a tomboy), make-up took too long to put much on, & I made my own clothes so I could make them how I liked them. I was pretty but the funny thing, I was never a guy magnet. I'm glad too.
But what about all the tricks some men will do to get a woman's attention? Have deep & meaningfully conversations. Pretend to like the things they like. Pretend to like their friends. Pretend to like their cats. After the guy snags the girl, she's supposed to ditch all that & cook what he likes, watch what he likes, go where he likes.
Boy, I sound cynical, but so many relationships seem based on that. I sure hear enough of that at work from others.
Posted by trouble on March 15, 2002, at 0:03:59
In reply to Mantrap, posted by Gracie2 on March 14, 2002, at 10:42:07
Posted by KB on March 15, 2002, at 11:22:50
In reply to Mantraps and Womantraps » Gracie2, posted by IsoM on March 14, 2002, at 13:09:45
Monday night he invited me to his house and cooked me dinner - this was a big deal since it's the first time he's cooked anything in his apartment (had to borrow pots from his mom). Tuesday night he called me, so things seem to be going OK, though I am definitely going to keep my eyes open and object promptly to anything I don't like.
As far as the debate about approaches goes, I am pretty much myself in all situations - i don't wear make-up, or "fashionable" clothes, I certainly don't pretend to have any enthusiasm for handball-playing, and he's known me long enough to be pretty clear about who I am. He's seen me at my most "presentable" - dressed up for a benefit - and my least (spending a week in the hospital with an infection, swollen and discolored and vomiting).
Anyway, we'll see what happens. Thanks for all the input.
Posted by IsoM on March 15, 2002, at 12:51:31
In reply to update, posted by KB on March 15, 2002, at 11:22:50
Okay, reading everything through more carefully, here's my thoughts on it. Use what may be useful, or chuck it all, I don't mind. Only hope something may prove useful.
Excuse my interjection of something from the Bible. I'm not asking you to believe the Bible, just notice how accurate its assessment of the differences between men & women. In it, it counsels about marriage & it tells husbands 'CONTINUE loving your wives' & 'a husband ought to love his wife as he does himself'. For women, it tells them 'to respect their husbands'.
It's interesting that this is mentioned because one of the most common complaints from women, even in a good relationship, is that he takes her for granted. A man will truly love his mate but ends up feeling so comfortable with her, like a paired of favourite old, worn out slippers, that he really doesn't notice her. In a sense, it's a compliment - he feels that much at ease with you. But in another way, it's not good - she needs reassurance & feedback from him. And with some men, when something new & exciting (another woman, a new sport or hobby, a career) comes along, she's left behind. Men have a challenge to keep loving their mate & to keep letting her know it. It's a continuous, on-gpoing thing. He shouldn't just tell you once that you're loved but should show it regularly, even daily, in a relationship.
Women, on the other hand, tend to see how comfortable a man gets around them - hanging out on the weekends unshaven, in old sweats, burping & farting around them without apologising, a man with all his faults showing, along with being taken for granted - and start losing respect for him. We want a man we can feel comfortable & safe with, but who still has some of the prince charming in him.
My suggestion is if you both really do love one another & wish to stay together (you'll often encounter many of the same problems you have now in a different relationship too), why not ask him if he'd like to go to therapy or counselling with you to work on keeping your relationship fresh & vital. It can be done. I mean, the counsel in the Bible is never 'blue-eyed people try your best to be brown-eyed' - instead it only counsels things that can be achieved. Husbands CAN continue loving their wives as themselves & wives CAN continue repecting their husbands. Men, by nature, if they love a woman, respect her too, while women tend to have no problems with showing love to the man.
This is the end of the thread.
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