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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phil on March 3, 2002, at 18:18:43
Just finished a 3 month run of insanity. Got involved with a married woman. I hate to even admit it and not proud of it.
It was one of those all consuming(mind)mixed up, miscommunicated messes. She's back with her husband now. I'm happy about that.
When we were both trying to end it or 'sort it out', a part of me surfaced that was never there before. I know AA's and 12 step folks, and others will recognize this. There were a lot of dynamics involved, I could write a book.
Here's the part that I turn into a total jerk.
I didn't want to lose her but I chose a game where very few win. I sent her very vicious emails on approximately 3 different times. Not life threatening but absolutely cruel as shit.
The first few times, she forgave me. Last night and this morning I sent more. It was like I didn't know the consequences of this continuing and forgot the previous days problems and warnings. In other words, while being on meds for 20+ years, this is the first time I've really thought I've lost my mind.
Lots of stuff probably contributed to my anger but I have to take this one by the horns and change. I know this centers around sexual addiction(perfect example)but nothing mattered when I wrote.
I'm ashamed, humiliated, and a bit worried over my actions. I'm in group and am seeing my pdoc on the 4th and 11th. I will probably try some new groups very soon!!
Anyone relate on either side?
This was and is a good person that I hurt.
Input? I told you so's?Hurting badly,
Phil / thanks for reading this. Had to let it out. Please, no religious teachings or preaching.
Posted by trouble on March 3, 2002, at 18:56:18
In reply to Haven't been posting. Addictive relatonship, posted by Phil on March 3, 2002, at 18:18:43
Hi Phil, glad you're back.
A few tings you said caught my eye and I'll respond to them in brief.
> When we were both trying to end it or 'sort it out', a part of me surfaced that was never there before.
> Here's the part that I turn into a total jerk.
> I didn't want to lose her but I chose a game where very few win.
>after 20+ years on meds this is the first time I've really thought I've lost my mind.IMO your situatin has nothiing to do w/ medication, and I'm hoping you were'nt implying that you thought the "right meds" or whatever would have prevented all this.
Anyway, I'm interested in the part of you that surfaced you say you'd never seen before.
IMHO Phil, this is what caused your "insane" behavior. When we become aware of unfamiliar aspects of ourselves, it can be destabilizing, you can feel like you've lost your identity, are becoming someone else, someone you don't like... The resultant anxiety from discovering previously denied parts of ourselves can send us over the edge, as you so eloquently described in your own actions.
The part of you that surfaced and drove you around the bend seems to me like dependency needs. Men are so discouraged from experiencing dependency needs it's a wonder half the male population isn't in jails and psych wards.
It's not fair to put cultural imperatives on the sexes that go against human nature, and when we sense their presence it can make us panic. But I also believe that once we let the new aspect into our psychological repoirtoire we becoming more, not less of a fully realized man or woman.I hope this part of yourself you'd never seen before isn't banished to the cellar on your journey toward healing. There's nothing wrong with it. Now the behavior that came out of it... well I'll leave that for my fellow posters to comment on.
Take care,
trouble
Posted by ambrosialdelight on March 3, 2002, at 20:50:09
In reply to Haven't been posting. Addictive relatonship, posted by Phil on March 3, 2002, at 18:18:43
and here I thought men had no feelings.
I'll state the obvious: apologize to her and then forgive yourself.
Be glad you can express your emotions in some way, although you could have done a better job of it.
Next time if you're hurt, say "I am hurt" don't say "I am angry" instead, and so forth. Say exactly what you feel, don't think about achieving an effect or self preservation, after all you're already hurt, how much worse could it get? Many people including the recipient of the news will identify somewhat. And by doing this you usually end up causing less pain for others and maybe reducing your own pain.
Good luck with the next one!
Posted by Phil on March 3, 2002, at 21:04:32
In reply to Re: Haven't been posting. Addictive relatonship, posted by trouble on March 3, 2002, at 18:56:18
A few tings you said caught my eye and I'll respond to them in brief.
> When we were both trying to end it or 'sort it out', a part of me surfaced that was never there before.
> Here's the part that I turn into a total jerk.
> I didn't want to lose her but I chose a game where very few win.
>after 20+ years on meds this is the first time I've really thought I've lost my mind.IMO your situatin has nothiing to do w/ medication, and I'm hoping you were'nt implying that you thought the "right meds" or whatever would have prevented all this.
No, I think it was there of its own volition, waiting to strike. But with the anger I spewed,
I felt detached from the words and it was like this had never been an issue.
Anyway, I'm interested in the part of you that surfaced you say you'd never seen before.>>>>My intense anger and then detachment from it.
IMHO Phil, this is what caused your "insane" behavior. When we become aware of unfamiliar aspects of ourselves, it can be destabilizing, you can feel like you've lost your identity, are becoming someone else, someone you don't like... The resultant anxiety from discovering previously denied parts of ourselves can send us over the edge, as you so eloquently described in your own actions.
The part of you that surfaced and drove you around the bend seems to me like dependency needs.
>>>That played a part. And unfortunately, left unchecked, progresses.
Men are so discouraged from experiencing dependency needs it's a wonder half the male population isn't in jails and psych wards.
It's not fair to put cultural imperatives on the sexes that go against human nature, and when we sense their presence it can make us panic. But I also believe that once we let the new aspect into our psychological repoirtoire we becoming more, not less of a fully realized man or woman.I hope this part of yourself you'd never seen before isn't banished to the cellar on your journey toward healing. There's nothing wrong with it.
Now the behavior that came out of it... well I'll leave that for my fellow posters to comment on.
>>>I want to hear what people have to say but I recognize that the behavior was wrong and not in keeping with my nature. I think I knew years ago that the core of the recovery onion for me and, maybe most recovering folks, was relationships, intimacy, letting somebody care is the hardest.Take care,
Posted by Shar on March 3, 2002, at 21:34:06
In reply to Re: Haven't been posting. Addictive relatonship, posted by Phil on March 3, 2002, at 21:04:32
Phil,
I would think your "vicious" behavior was a mixture of fear and anger. Plus a surprisingly overt display of anger, for you. Any time one of us "easy going" mellow addicts lets anger come out, I think it just spews because we don't let it out in 'normal' amounts as it comes up.This was an extreme situation, and you acted out some of your anger this time. Here's where I go into denial (tho this is what I believe): I truly believe it's not anything as serious as you losing control, I don't believe that you would hurt someone, and I do believe that if you've stopped with the emails, you are ok til you see your pdoc and therapist.
I hope you talk about this in therapy. This is an excellent thing to talk about.
Posted by Phil on March 4, 2002, at 6:25:23
In reply to Re: Haven't been posting. Addictive relatonship, posted by Shar on March 3, 2002, at 21:34:06
trouble and Shar, Thanks for y'all's wisdom on this. Shar, you're right in that I always hold in or deny the anger but if something sets it off, we do all have our hot-buttons, I go nuts. But mostly on email! This is the first time in my life that I wish email was NEVER invented.
There was no innocent party in this relationship but I'll acknowledge my 50-65%! I just don't want people to hurt because of things I have said.
The strange part, Shar, is that when I wrote it was like I was...I can't explain it other than I was so detatched from it all. Like in a rush of some sort-not thinking, just writing. Like not even conscious of it in a way. But, like I told her...I hit the send button.
I would like to hear people talk about their experiences, if similar to mine.
I guess a lot of us have stayed long after we should.Thanks again
Posted by Phil on March 4, 2002, at 6:28:37
In reply to Re: Haven't been posting. Addictive relatonship, posted by Shar on March 3, 2002, at 21:34:06
You're right. I could never hurt anyone physically and never have. I see my doc today.
Maybe she will sew my fingers together.
Posted by Shar on March 4, 2002, at 13:10:40
In reply to Re: Haven't been posting. Shar..ps, posted by Phil on March 4, 2002, at 6:28:37
Phil,
Yes, I have had that kind of experience where I was hardly even forming words in my mind, they were just shooting out of my fingers.It was on an IM chat, and the other person would say something like 'sorry' and I'd say
WELL IT'S A LITTLE LATE FOR THAT NOW ISN'T IT YOU MF?? YOU BROKE YOUR WORD, IT IS WORTH NOTHING, YOU HAVE NO HONOR, YOU CAN NEVER BE TRUSTED AGAIN, ALL YOUR WORDS ARE LIES
and little tidbits like that. Looking back, I was very dissociated during the whole thing.
I did not expect to 'go off' like that, did not even feel a lot of anger when we first started talking--tho it was obviously there.
I think I started my diatribe with "Fuck you asshole" after he said something agressive like 'how have you been?' I gotta believe he was asking for it. 8-)
And, I've cleared a few desktops in my time--one swoop and it's all on the floor, you know, that kinda thing. I haven't had a good eruption in a while now, maybe one is coming.
P.S. I didn't know Trouble was from Austin and you can tell in my post below that I didn't know you knew. We probably need to have coffee.
Shar
Take care, Phil. I figured you were involved with someone when I didn't hear from you. See, you shouldn't abandon your friends; I might have saved you from some of that! (right......)
Posted by Greg A. on March 4, 2002, at 13:39:51
In reply to Haven't been posting. Addictive relatonship, posted by Phil on March 3, 2002, at 18:18:43
Phil,
I hesitate to admit to it, but I did the same thing as you – with a few personal variations thrown in. Specifics – married woman confides in me about her husband’s affair. I am married as well. Can’t get married woman off my mind. She tries to discourage me but halfheartedly, as she needs the attention while hubby is messing around. I’m hooked. Spend next 2 years fighting with myself and my feelings. We never have physical relationship but lots of ‘secret’ sessions of talking etc. End up sending letters and emails that probably sounded a lot like yours. Anger and frustration that she could not see things my way.
I work with this woman so I have had to come to terms with my obsession in order to survive. When I finally broke away and stopped seeing her, I was eventually able to realize that she was a nice person but with a lot of problems. The bad outweighed the good in the final tally, but for 2 years I was unable to see that. I am still married. She is not. She has forgiven me for the angry notes, but I think I still hold a grudge that she strung me along for so long. I know I wanted to be ‘strung along’ but it could have stopped so much sooner. I can finally, honestly say, I am glad I am not with her. I am not sure how she feels, but it no longer really concerns me. Do I sound bitter? More mad at myself for how I acted and how much time I wasted., I think.Hang in there Phil. We do these dumb things which we regret but you really haven’t qualified as a serial killer or anything. Once you are over her (are you?) you can work on forgiving yourself.
Greg
Posted by Phil on March 4, 2002, at 17:44:26
In reply to A fellow fool . . ., posted by Greg A. on March 4, 2002, at 13:39:51
thanks shar & greg a. I've attracted these relationships several times although they weren't married. I'm very lucky at love.
shar, we can have coffee if you pitch a fit before we get together. u wouldn't have saved me from this affair..i already knew this feeling but was too weak to stop.
This was short term, thank God, but you really hurt like hell when it's over.
I think i'll write a book about love...okay, title? "I shoulda popped a cap in yo ass, woman"
That's a little long..needs more work. So do I.
Posted by Zo on March 4, 2002, at 19:23:36
In reply to Haven't been posting. Addictive relatonship, posted by Phil on March 3, 2002, at 18:18:43
Well, I've popped off in relationships, particularly one man who loved me and whom I loved. . .so the rage that surfaced was intense, and I think the thing to do is *observe* it and learn what it is trying to tell you. I "decoded" so much more about my childhood, and it is this work that allows me to become a less hurtful person overall. . .Not "trying" to be less hurtful, but minding what's going on, and knowing that intimate relationships are going to trigger one's deepest, darkest shit--if shit there be.
AND, I gotta tell you, I popped off and was a hell of alot more cruel and detached from it when my mood disorder was unmedicated. My poisonous little zaps of email were really not apparent, to me. Depression or mood disorder--any of the illnesses we deal with--interfere terribly with the self-feedback loop.
Zo, who *has* said and done bad things!
Posted by wendy b. on March 4, 2002, at 20:51:11
In reply to Re: Haven't been posting. Addictive relatonship, posted by Zo on March 4, 2002, at 19:23:36
Well, Phil, I haven't been posting at all lately, but I came across your missive on a brief visit to PSB, and --- well, you know I've always had a crush on you (so how bad could you be?).
So I'm sorry for you. I have been 'the other woman' in a relationship, so I know what it's like to sneak around and shit like that. It sucks. He eventually left his wife for me, I didn't know it at the time, but when your lover shows up at your door with a suitcase and tells you he's left her (in your case, him), don't let them in. I could have saved four years of my young life. And the worst thing was, I was only 22 when it started, I knew it wasn't going to work out...
Sounds like you were almost dissociating when you wrote those nasty e-mails. Have you ever cut, or dissociated like that ever before? Sounds like a big WHOOSH release of some bile from waayyy long ago. And sometimes it comes out and you can't help it. And like someone else said, I'm happier for you that it came out than it stayed in. We work so hard at keeping it all down, you know? It's so tiring to do it, but we do it. And if we just had been able to let it out, at the right time and at the people who made us so angry in the first place, rather than this poor woman who you projected all this shit onto, we'd be better able to deal with the pressure valve...
And just for the record, your mistress participated in something she knew was going to be destructive. So when I say "poor woman" above, it was just to make the point. She must have known you were the perfect man to have an affair with... don't you think that happens sometimes? We see the Other, the Object (with a capital O) coming from miles off. And she wanted the fireworks, at least unconsciously. She will survive. And she has the spouse waiting in the wings, you just have to go home and deal with your shit alone (although you do have the cat and the llama, right?) So make your peace, talk to the therapists and the group, see what they have to offer. Let us know what they say...
I'm sorry you've had this awful shit surface, but trust me, there was a reason for it all to have happened, now it's time to learn from it and grow as a human being.
much love,
Wendy
Posted by Zo on March 5, 2002, at 2:04:52
In reply to Re: Haven't been posting. Addictive relatonship, posted by wendy b. on March 4, 2002, at 20:51:11
Posted by trouble on March 5, 2002, at 4:06:21
In reply to Phil has a llama? (nm) » wendy b., posted by Zo on March 5, 2002, at 2:04:52
Posted by Phil on March 5, 2002, at 6:05:42
In reply to Re: Haven't been posting. Addictive relatonship, posted by wendy b. on March 4, 2002, at 20:51:11
Thanks Wendy, sweet of you to come back and talk a bit. You definately know the demon and yes, it sucks big time when they go back to whom they never mentioned. I go back to my ramshackled crach-shack of an apartment, where we always met.
I look at the cat. I look at the llama.
I say I love them. But they lost the step-momma.
(very sorry about that).At one point in the rel., I pushed pretty hard for her to get counseling and told her that I would have to go, doctors orders, because of it. That's exactly what happened. I think I actually made her life better but, you know, I'm not a social worker. I would be proud if I was but she didn't have me on the payroll.
Posted by Phil on March 5, 2002, at 6:09:41
In reply to Re: Haven't been posting. Addictive relatonship, posted by wendy b. on March 4, 2002, at 20:51:11
Posted by Krazy Kat on March 5, 2002, at 8:13:35
In reply to what's a llama? (nm), posted by trouble on March 5, 2002, at 4:06:21
Did anyone answer this? It's like a camel with fur (sort of), and it will spit on you if it gets a chance.
- KK
Posted by trouble on March 5, 2002, at 15:22:45
In reply to Re: what's a llama?, posted by Krazy Kat on March 5, 2002, at 8:13:35
Why would any word start w/ two letter lls? Does anyone know, this is really bugging me!
ttrouble
Posted by Penny on March 5, 2002, at 15:37:40
In reply to llinguists? help please, posted by trouble on March 5, 2002, at 15:22:45
> Why would any word start w/ two letter lls? Does anyone know, this is really bugging me!
>
> ttrouble
It's a word of Spanish origin. In the Spanish alphabet, there's a double ll (pronounced el-ye), as in the phrase "Me llamo...," which means "My name is...." but in that case, the word "llamo" is prounounced "yamo'. Llama can be pronounced with an English pronunciation "Lama" or a Spanish "Yama".Penny
Posted by trouble on March 5, 2002, at 16:23:10
In reply to Re: llinguists? help please, posted by Penny on March 5, 2002, at 15:37:40
Posted by Phil on March 5, 2002, at 20:37:29
In reply to Great explanation, Thanks Penny (nm), posted by trouble on March 5, 2002, at 16:23:10
Posted by Shar on March 10, 2002, at 13:42:12
In reply to Like more input on original post, if any (nm), posted by Phil on March 5, 2002, at 20:37:29
You know, I had a therapy session last week in which we were talking about personal drama. And, Wendy's post reminded me of it when she mentioned fireworks.
It is very, very common IMO for addicts to love drama, and, in fact, act it out frequently in their own lives. I certainly did. Often it was drama that made me feel anything at all. I was so shut down in other ways, it took something pretty extreme to get my attention. Sort of like high-risk behavior in a personal way.
Drama...we all have our own personal dramas that we act out over and over (IMO), and in my case it is with intimate relationships with men. It is almost like the drama was the focus--because I did not know how to get to the intimacy (especially not in a healthy way) and I defined intimacy as the drama. Of course, I'm much better now.....
I was told once that by using my creative side, in whatever way I could, that was a way to release the energy of the drama, so I didn't have to act it out so much in my own life. I discovered (contrary to my beliefs) that real relationships don't have a blueprint that is followed until the expected outcome is achieved (oooh, high drama there!).
I also found out that I could learn to look at others and their dramas with a little detachment and not get pulled in. There is a guy where I work, and this guy just can't stand me. If I call him for help (he is a helper person on some of my shifts) he does this BIG sigh, and I can see him roll his eyes, and he hates to talk to me. At one time I could have gotten into that pretty well, reacted a whole bunch; now, it seems like that is his drama, and he is welcome to it, and I know I serve a purpose as a thorn in his side 8-).
Hope this made some sense. I guess my point was about drama in relationships, that it serves a purpose, being able to see it, and how some relationships are all about drama more than intimacy, in my own experience.
I just reread this. Oh, yeah...this made a LOT of sense...well, at least I tried. 8-)
Take care.
xoxo
Shar
Posted by trouble on March 10, 2002, at 20:40:44
In reply to Like more input...how 'bout some drama? » Phil, posted by Shar on March 10, 2002, at 13:42:12
Posted by Zo on March 10, 2002, at 21:50:58
In reply to Like more input...how 'bout some drama? » Phil, posted by Shar on March 10, 2002, at 13:42:12
Posted by Phil on March 11, 2002, at 6:26:43
In reply to Like more input...how 'bout some drama? » Phil, posted by Shar on March 10, 2002, at 13:42:12
I know what you mean. In a 12 step book I read I remember one person that said they always heard a faint voice saying,"Dramatize it, dramatize it."
I'm guilty. Wouldn't know love without a horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach.
Thanks for the wisdom, Shar.
This is the end of the thread.
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