![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tina on September 19, 2001, at 10:53:34
Can anyone explain this to me?
I get very happy and energetic for a few months, sometimes weeks, and then I go down, down, down and don't stop til the UP starts again.
I've seen 5 docs in my time and none have ever diagnosed me with any "disorder" so I'm asking anyone if they know if it's possible to have bipolar without mania?
Posted by paxvox on September 19, 2001, at 12:05:35
In reply to Bipolar Disorder without Mania, posted by tina on September 19, 2001, at 10:53:34
I'm no expert on bipolar disorder, but from what I have learned, there would be a more rapid cycling than every few months. You could have something as vanilla as SAD (seasonal Affected Disorder) that changes as the hours of light change seasonally. If you don't have a DX, ask your doc for one. How else can you be treated?
PAX
Posted by tina on September 19, 2001, at 13:26:07
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania » tina, posted by paxvox on September 19, 2001, at 12:05:35
> I'm no expert on bipolar disorder, but from what I have learned, there would be a more rapid cycling than every few months. You could have something as vanilla as SAD (seasonal Affected Disorder) that changes as the hours of light change seasonally. If you don't have a DX, ask your doc for one. How else can you be treated?
>pax
I've asked every doc I've had to dx me and they will only say i don't have anything specific. They believe I have an anxiety disorder and an "inability to deal with the normal changes that occur in daily life" but will commit to no dx in particular. None of them. 5 out of 5.
Very frustrating.
thanks for your input
Tina>
> PAX
Posted by Jane D on September 19, 2001, at 13:31:59
In reply to Bipolar Disorder without Mania, posted by tina on September 19, 2001, at 10:53:34
> Can anyone explain this to me?
> I get very happy and energetic for a few months, sometimes weeks, and then I go down, down, down and don't stop til the UP starts again.
> I've seen 5 docs in my time and none have ever diagnosed me with any "disorder" so I'm asking anyone if they know if it's possible to have bipolar without mania?Tina - The question is how happy do you get and how down do you get. People with Bipolar II get hypomanic (a little less than manic - a little more than normal). Some people think that cycling between depressed and normal (not even hypomanic) is related to bipolar. Look at the bipolar section of
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.html
(new stuff there) and at
http://www.psycheducation.org/
That should help you decide whether you think you are bipolar and, if you do, give you an idea of why you might not have been diagnosed.By the way, my recollection of the definition of rapid cycling is that it requires 4 or more switches in one year. -Jane
Posted by susan C on September 19, 2001, at 13:38:05
In reply to Bipolar Disorder without Mania, posted by tina on September 19, 2001, at 10:53:34
> Can anyone explain this to me?
> I get very happy and energetic for a few months, sometimes weeks, and then I go down, down, down and don't stop til the UP starts again.
> I've seen 5 docs in my time and none have ever diagnosed me with any "disorder" so I'm asking anyone if they know if it's possible to have bipolar without mania?My understanding is, yes. Depending on what your definition of Mania is. I get into Mixed states, agitation, anger, very active. Other times I am very active/creative. These times are usually followed by a deep decent into depression. Sometimes these, swings, can happen multiple times in one day. Rapid Cycling.
There are definitions of bipolar one, two and now, three. My understanding is the difference between one and two is the presence of hallucinations and psychosis in one, but not in two. Two can be considered not as severe as one, but still distruptive of your life to where you cannot function. I dont know enough about number three. As usual, search, there are lots of good sites referred to here, on Dr. dash Bob's site.
Keeping a journal with numeric range assigned to daily mood changes and descriptions of how you feel, what is going on in and around your life are very helpful...even if you arent consistant...I certainly am not...it still helps. Oh, and my biggie, having a person who is your medical advocate....some one who helps you keep track.
babbling mouse
susan c
Posted by Jane D on September 19, 2001, at 13:42:01
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania » paxvox, posted by tina on September 19, 2001, at 13:26:07
> I've asked every doc I've had to dx me and they will only say i don't have anything specific. They believe I have an anxiety disorder and an "inability to deal with the normal changes that occur in daily life" but will commit to no dx in particular. None of them. 5 out of 5.
The big question is are they treating you for anything and is that treatment correct? Since the diagnoses are fuzzy it's the symptoms that are important. In other words, if you have symptoms 1, 2 & 3 you may get diagnosed as having condition A which usually has symptoms 2,3 & 4. The usual treatment for that condition may address symptons 3 & 4 but you'd still be better off with something that addressed 1 & 2. Confused yet?
Posted by susan C on September 19, 2001, at 13:44:19
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania 2 » tina, posted by Jane D on September 19, 2001, at 13:42:01
Posted by tina on September 19, 2001, at 15:14:37
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania 2 » tina, posted by Jane D on September 19, 2001, at 13:42:01
> > I've asked every doc I've had to dx me and they will only say i don't have anything specific. They believe I have an anxiety disorder and an "inability to deal with the normal changes that occur in daily life" but will commit to no dx in particular. None of them. 5 out of 5.
>
> The big question is are they treating you for anything and is that treatment correct? Since the diagnoses are fuzzy it's the symptoms that are important. In other words, if you have symptoms 1, 2 & 3 you may get diagnosed as having condition A which usually has symptoms 2,3 & 4. The usual treatment for that condition may address symptons 3 & 4 but you'd still be better off with something that addressed 1 & 2. Confused yet?
>YUP. :)
Posted by tina on September 19, 2001, at 15:21:22
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder: We are having a test later (nm), posted by susan C on September 19, 2001, at 13:44:19
Some really good advice. Thanks ever so much to all of you. i will do a search and educate myself.
I definitely don't cycle rapidly. I am not manic, that's for sure but I do have unlimited energy and creativity. I also find it easy to do the things that I find terribly difficult when I am in the depressed state. I don't overspend which I've read is a manic behavior. I'm not sexually permiscuous. I do have a problem shutting up though. Right now I'm in the depressed state. Big time. I just look back on the months of May, June and July and think....."God, did I ever have energy. I was brave. I was unstoppable and confident." Then I wish I could be that again and wonder why it all of a sudden stopped.
You guys know what i'm talking about, why do I over-explain all the time.....jeezzz.
Anyway, thanks to all.
hugs
T
Posted by dreamer on September 19, 2001, at 18:54:52
In reply to Bipolar Disorder without Mania, posted by tina on September 19, 2001, at 10:53:34
> Can anyone explain this to me?
> I get very happy and energetic for a few months, sometimes weeks, and then I go down, down, down and don't stop til the UP starts again.
> I've seen 5 docs in my time and none have ever diagnosed me with any "disorder" so I'm asking anyone if they know if it's possible to have bipolar without mania?Hi Tina,
I'm confused docs aren't certain either -cannot pigeon hole me either. I rapid cycle all day long! very rare I feel norm get symptoms of mania but brief and I DO act on things that I regret later or next day/week/month , and the lows I cannot describe the horror.
Tried to self anaylise but I get more confused and give up.
They may treat you with mood stabilizer and ad even though u don't get full mania.
Think I'm getting anti-seizure med even though I'm not epileptic.
No specific disorder is useless when filling in important forms!
Just focus on finding right med with your doc maybe just take something for when you get low could be seasonal??????
I dunno . Many new uncharted mental illnesses must be around.dreamerry.
Posted by Greg on September 19, 2001, at 20:12:24
In reply to Bipolar Disorder without Mania, posted by tina on September 19, 2001, at 10:53:34
T,
I'm glad you asked about this, I think you got some good feedback. Got anybody to help you keep track? :)
Love ya,
G
Posted by tina on September 19, 2001, at 20:22:12
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania » tina, posted by Greg on September 19, 2001, at 20:12:24
> T,
>
> I'm glad you asked about this, I think you got some good feedback. Got anybody to help you keep track? :)Are you volunteering?
Posted by Greg on September 19, 2001, at 20:35:11
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania » Greg, posted by tina on September 19, 2001, at 20:22:12
> > T,
> >
> > I'm glad you asked about this, I think you got some good feedback. Got anybody to help you keep track? :)
>
> Are you volunteering?For you my dear, anytime. What are friends for?
Posted by tina on September 20, 2001, at 9:03:40
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania » tina, posted by Greg on September 19, 2001, at 20:35:11
> > > T,
> > >
> > > I'm glad you asked about this, I think you got some good feedback. Got anybody to help you keep track? :)
> >
> > Are you volunteering?
>
> For you my dear, anytime. What are friends for?You tell me.......
Posted by Roo on September 26, 2001, at 13:24:42
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania, posted by tina on September 20, 2001, at 9:03:40
Tina--I'm glad you wrote about this. I feel very
similar to you when it comes to my moods...I don't
feel manic...but go through periods of more energy
and creativity and then I'll go through depressive
cycles and not even be able to imagine how I ever had
energy or creativity. I've wondered, am I bipolar,
or is that just life--ebbs and flows, hills and valleys...and
perfectly normal...I don't know.
Do you take meds? If so, which ones? Have you ever
tried a mood stabilizer?
Posted by Wendy B. on September 27, 2001, at 10:42:50
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania--Tina, posted by Roo on September 26, 2001, at 13:24:42
tina,
you need a dx in order to be treated by anybody who is an MD. i.e., they HAVE to write something on your chart. ask them what they've put down. get copies. they may have just punked out and written generalized anxiety disorder, or depression, but it would be helpful to know what the dx codes were. they come in numerical form.
if you have time, can you write something about what each of the 5 dr's said? what their qualifications are? (MD, PhD, CSW, etc.) what each one prescribed, if anything. it would be interesting, i think. also think you need to see #6!
i'm sure you have a bipolar illness, from what you've described. the higher level of creativity and the energy to get things done is hypomania. it's also typical for the bipolar personality to long for those times when they seemed, as you say, unstoppable. there is also a less 'high' type of cycling, called cyclothymia. maybe we should read up on that... i'll look some stuff up.
here's hoping someone will take your symptoms seriously.
best,
wendy> Tina--I'm glad you wrote about this. I feel very
> similar to you when it comes to my moods...I don't
> feel manic...but go through periods of more energy
> and creativity and then I'll go through depressive
> cycles and not even be able to imagine how I ever had
> energy or creativity. I've wondered, am I bipolar,
> or is that just life--ebbs and flows, hills and valleys...and
> perfectly normal...I don't know.
> Do you take meds? If so, which ones? Have you ever
> tried a mood stabilizer?
Posted by Wendy B. on September 28, 2001, at 20:43:47
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania, posted by Wendy B. on September 27, 2001, at 10:42:50
a recent thread with some interesting discussion on the topic:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010327/msgs/57755.htmlhope this helps...
> tina,
>
> you need a dx in order to be treated by anybody who is an MD. i.e., they HAVE to write something on your chart. ask them what they've put down. get copies. they may have just punked out and written generalized anxiety disorder, or depression, but it would be helpful to know what the dx codes were. they come in numerical form.
>
> if you have time, can you write something about what each of the 5 dr's said? what their qualifications are? (MD, PhD, CSW, etc.) what each one prescribed, if anything. it would be interesting, i think. also think you need to see #6!
>
> i'm sure you have a bipolar illness, from what you've described. the higher level of creativity and the energy to get things done is hypomania. it's also typical for the bipolar personality to long for those times when they seemed, as you say, unstoppable. there is also a less 'high' type of cycling, called cyclothymia. maybe we should read up on that... i'll look some stuff up.
>
> here's hoping someone will take your symptoms seriously.
>
> best,
> wendy
>
>
>
> > Tina--I'm glad you wrote about this. I feel very
> > similar to you when it comes to my moods...I don't
> > feel manic...but go through periods of more energy
> > and creativity and then I'll go through depressive
> > cycles and not even be able to imagine how I ever had
> > energy or creativity. I've wondered, am I bipolar,
> > or is that just life--ebbs and flows, hills and valleys...and
> > perfectly normal...I don't know.
> > Do you take meds? If so, which ones? Have you ever
> > tried a mood stabilizer?
Posted by tina on October 7, 2001, at 0:01:57
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania, posted by Wendy B. on September 27, 2001, at 10:42:50
Thanks Wendy for the thread. I"m sorry I didn't get back to either of you sooner but I've been preparing for our Canadian thanksgiving this week and I haven't been back to babble in quite a while. But, here I am, unable to sleep so I thought I'd check in.
Wendy, 3 of the docs were psychiatrists, 1 a social worker and 1 a psychologist. The psychiatrists just prescribed meds and asked me how they made me feel every week. The psychologist was pretty good but she was too expensive for me to keep seeing. The social worker was the first person I ever saw about my panic and anxiety 12 years ago. She was a very hands-on "lets change your life" kind of person. She freaked me out. After a few sessions, she decided that I needed medication and more help than she could give and referred me to a psychiatrist friend of hers. That first psych was a real winner. She fed me meds and every week just sat there, staring at me or writing in her files. Sometimes I though she wasn't even writing about me but was catching up on her paperwork. She never gave me a dx. I didn't ask either because I was so new to mental disorders. I thought I was a total freak. I decided to terminate sessions with her as I believed it was counter-productive and I had a good 5 years of feeling ok. The anxiety was under control and I could hold down a full time job and felt completely normal for 5 whole years. It was amazing really. But, when the anxiety and anger and panic and agression and craziness crept back in, I went to my GP and asked her for yet another referral. She sent me to this asshole-scuse the language-who told me to go out and buy some new clothes and have my hair done and i would feel like a brand new woman. Well, needless to say, I didn't go back to HIM! Still, no dx. Then, I ended up in marriage counselling (I'd rather not go into the whys of that) and it was a husband/wife team. The wife decided that I needed one on one therapy and I enjoyed our sessions but she was just way to expensive and not on a "plan" of any kind. The idea of a dx just never came up. I was seeing her for too short a time.
The last one was a psychiatrist. She was alright in the beginning. She is the kind of person who likes to tell you to "get over it" though and I'm just not really capable of doing that. She was the one that fed me full of the most meds. She tried lots of them on me. None of which helped. I asked her outright what dx she would give me and she said that it would be impossible to pigeon-hole me into a specific disorder or condition and she would "prefer not to" because she believed that it would just make me "feel worse about myself" Don't know what that means but anyway........
So, you see, I am without good luck when it comes to therapy. It seems I go through years when I can feel fine, like myself, and then go through years where I am a basket case. There are, of course, the daily "freak outs' like punching holes in walls, throwing laundry baskets out the front door at birds that are making too much noise, tripping over a dog toy and deciding that setting it on fire on the front lawn is the only way to really get rid of it........that kind of thing. then, the ridiculous running, jumping, incessant yapping, no sleep, no eat, gotta do something before my skin flays off days. I'm in them right now. I workout for 2 hours a day. I clean and clean and clean my house. I cook, bake, draw, fidget non-stop, drive everyone around me completely insane and wonder why the hell I am so anxious, nervous just being at home. I pace the halls in the wee hours, I can't stop blinking and I have these ticks......annoying ticks that frustrate me to the point of intense rage episodes where I stare into the mirror holding scissors to the offending ticking area threatening it. Telling IT that I will cut it out if it doesn't stop "misbehaving"
Some days are intense Wendy, some days are flat.
Bet you're sorry you asked.
hugs
T
PS, over the years, I have been prescribed:
Celexa, Paxil, Lithium, Moclobemide, Trazodone, Serzone, Amytriptiline, four different benzos, and a few more things but my memory is swiss cheese from lack of sleep. I am currently only taking a benzo, as needed, and I am not in therapy at all.
> tina,
>
> you need a dx in order to be treated by anybody who is an MD. i.e., they HAVE to write something on your chart. ask them what they've put down. get copies. they may have just punked out and written generalized anxiety disorder, or depression, but it would be helpful to know what the dx codes were. they come in numerical form.
>
> if you have time, can you write something about what each of the 5 dr's said? what their qualifications are? (MD, PhD, CSW, etc.) what each one prescribed, if anything. it would be interesting, i think. also think you need to see #6!
>
> i'm sure you have a bipolar illness, from what you've described. the higher level of creativity and the energy to get things done is hypomania. it's also typical for the bipolar personality to long for those times when they seemed, as you say, unstoppable. there is also a less 'high' type of cycling, called cyclothymia. maybe we should read up on that... i'll look some stuff up.
>
> here's hoping someone will take your symptoms seriously.
>
> best,
> wendy
>
>
>
> > Tina--I'm glad you wrote about this. I feel very
> > similar to you when it comes to my moods...I don't
> > feel manic...but go through periods of more energy
> > and creativity and then I'll go through depressive
> > cycles and not even be able to imagine how I ever had
> > energy or creativity. I've wondered, am I bipolar,
> > or is that just life--ebbs and flows, hills and valleys...and
> > perfectly normal...I don't know.
> > Do you take meds? If so, which ones? Have you ever
> > tried a mood stabilizer?
Posted by Dinah on October 7, 2001, at 3:07:16
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania-Wendy and Roo, posted by tina on October 7, 2001, at 0:01:57
Tina:
Many psychiatrists appear reluctant to give a diagnosis. My current pdoc is very vague, and only mentions depression and anxiety. I have to back in to what he thinks by what he prescribes and looking up what code words he uses. I still have no idea.
I am no expert, but I think that mania or hypomania doesn't have to be of the good sort. It can be characterized by irritability, anger, and an agitated "jump out of your skin" feeling.
In any case, diagnosis probably doesn't matter as much as finding a good doctor to help you feel better. Do you have a university close by? The best pdocs I have ever found have been affiliated with a university. I've also had very good luck going to public-health type seminars and following up with a doctor who seems to have a good level of knowledge. That would probably take too long, though and is better for changing pdocs than finding one. Finally, don't be afraid to interview a few if you have to. I don't know what referral or health insurance concerns are in Canada, but I will tell you that I bit the bullet and paid out of pocket myself to find someone I liked.
I wish you the best of luck, and hope that a few (OK - several) bad experiences don't stop you from looking for a good one. It will be worth it.
Posted by Dinah on October 7, 2001, at 3:32:15
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania-Wendy and Roo » tina, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2001, at 3:07:16
The downside to a psychiatrist search is that, in my case at least, it took so long. The quickest I was ever seen was at a mental health clinic. They did an intake interview within a week. If you need to see someone quickly, a referral from your GP, a mental health clinic, or the local hospital might be your best bet. If you like who you get, great, if not you at least have some help while you look to find someone else more suited to your needs.
Also remember, your psychiatrist does not have to be your therapist. In fact, in my limited experience, the psychiatrists I have seen weren't the best therapists. Prescribing meds and talk therapy are two distinctly different skill sets.
Posted by Wendy B. on October 7, 2001, at 12:27:48
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania-Wendy and Roo, posted by tina on October 7, 2001, at 0:01:57
> Thanks Wendy for the thread. I"m sorry I didn't get back to either of you sooner but I've been preparing for our Canadian thanksgiving this week and I haven't been back to babble in quite a while. But, here I am, unable to sleep so I thought I'd check in.
> Wendy, 3 of the docs were psychiatrists, 1 a social worker and 1 a psychologist. The psychiatrists just prescribed meds and asked me how they made me feel every week. The psychologist was pretty good but she was too expensive for me to keep seeing. The social worker was the first person I ever saw about my panic and anxiety 12 years ago. She was a very hands-on "lets change your life" kind of person. She freaked me out. After a few sessions, she decided that I needed medication and more help than she could give and referred me to a psychiatrist friend of hers. That first psych was a real winner. She fed me meds and every week just sat there, staring at me or writing in her files. Sometimes I though she wasn't even writing about me but was catching up on her paperwork. She never gave me a dx. I didn't ask either because I was so new to mental disorders. I thought I was a total freak. I decided to terminate sessions with her as I believed it was counter-productive and I had a good 5 years of feeling ok. The anxiety was under control and I could hold down a full time job and felt completely normal for 5 whole years. It was amazing really. But, when the anxiety and anger and panic and agression and craziness crept back in, I went to my GP and asked her for yet another referral. She sent me to this asshole-scuse the language-who told me to go out and buy some new clothes and have my hair done and i would feel like a brand new woman. Well, needless to say, I didn't go back to HIM! Still, no dx. Then, I ended up in marriage counselling (I'd rather not go into the whys of that) and it was a husband/wife team. The wife decided that I needed one on one therapy and I enjoyed our sessions but she was just way to expensive and not on a "plan" of any kind. The idea of a dx just never came up. I was seeing her for too short a time.
> The last one was a psychiatrist. She was alright in the beginning. She is the kind of person who likes to tell you to "get over it" though and I'm just not really capable of doing that. She was the one that fed me full of the most meds. She tried lots of them on me. None of which helped. I asked her outright what dx she would give me and she said that it would be impossible to pigeon-hole me into a specific disorder or condition and she would "prefer not to" because she believed that it would just make me "feel worse about myself" Don't know what that means but anyway........
> So, you see, I am without good luck when it comes to therapy. It seems I go through years when I can feel fine, like myself, and then go through years where I am a basket case. There are, of course, the daily "freak outs' like punching holes in walls, throwing laundry baskets out the front door at birds that are making too much noise, tripping over a dog toy and deciding that setting it on fire on the front lawn is the only way to really get rid of it........that kind of thing. then, the ridiculous running, jumping, incessant yapping, no sleep, no eat, gotta do something before my skin flays off days. I'm in them right now. I workout for 2 hours a day. I clean and clean and clean my house. I cook, bake, draw, fidget non-stop, drive everyone around me completely insane and wonder why the hell I am so anxious, nervous just being at home. I pace the halls in the wee hours, I can't stop blinking and I have these ticks......annoying ticks that frustrate me to the point of intense rage episodes where I stare into the mirror holding scissors to the offending ticking area threatening it. Telling IT that I will cut it out if it doesn't stop "misbehaving"
> Some days are intense Wendy, some days are flat.
> Bet you're sorry you asked.
> hugs
> T
> PS, over the years, I have been prescribed:
> Celexa, Paxil, Lithium, Moclobemide, Trazodone, Serzone, Amytriptiline, four different benzos, and a few more things but my memory is swiss cheese from lack of sleep. I am currently only taking a benzo, as needed, and I am not in therapy at all.
>
hi tina,wow. your post knocked me out. i'm not sorry i asked at all. i really feel for your situation. the only thing i'm sorry about is that you feel so badly. it's obvious that it's unhealthy for you to be going through times like these, you're in a serious phase of hypomania... impulse control is gone. at some point, those scissors are going to go through flesh, and you're going to regret it, and maybe you would have been able to avoid it. please please don't ignore this, or think there's no point in trying *again* to get help. there is a point: it's your life we're talking about, and it's worth it, worth it to me, worth it to others here on PSB, worth it to those who love you.
who is with you? husband, boyfriend, children? is there anyone you can talk to at home? a close friend or relative? you need someone you can trust, who'll help you wade through the morass of symptoms, and who'll be your advocate. if there's no one, call a local hotline.
it's TERRIBLE that 5 different therapeutic situations have failed you. obviously, it's going to take a special person or clinic to help you. i'd say your best bet *right now* would be to call the last one you saw, the psychiatrist, and just tell her things have gotten worse.
i don't see depakote, neurontin, lamictal, topamax, etc. on your drug list. there are many many drugs for you to try. they need to be tried in such as way as there are as few in your system at one time as possible. it's hard to tell what's doing what if you're on too many (although i understand people's needs for 'cocktails.') right now, you probably need at least a mood stabilizer, even something as easy to take (few side-effects) as neurontin, 600 mg x 4 per day. i'm sure you'd feel much more able to cope. or else depakote. you've got to get smoothed out, cuz i'm afraid you're going to hurt yourself, from what you're writing. setting fire to the dog's toy because it's tripped you is not behavior that you yourself would call 'normal', as you know, because you say so. cutting your facial skin because the tic won't stop is not normal, and you'll feel worse, i'm sure, if you wind up doing it...
please be careful, and write back. i'm going to keep up with you, and check in on you, but you have to do something, too. and i know it's hard right now, but things will improve, i am absolutely sure.
BIG hug,
wendy
Posted by tina on October 8, 2001, at 21:00:14
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania » tina, posted by Wendy B. on October 7, 2001, at 12:27:48
Hi Wendy
I didn't mean to scare you. I am not serious about cutting out the ticks. I just get so frustrated that it seems like the only option sometimes. I have the "setting fire to the dog's toy" episodes alot though. Yesterday I was washing dishes and I dropped a plate and slopped water over the counter onto the floor and got so pissed at myself that I threw the plate against a wall and shattered it. To me these are small things. However, it scares the shit out of the dog. She is so afraid of me. I'm glad I don't have kids. I wouldn't want to put them through my temper outbursts. Funny, I never ever take my anger out on others. Only on myself. Even if the fault isn't mine, I find some way to make it mine and then punish myself. I've been a cutter for more than a decade. I used to break BIC pens apart in class and scratch my arms and hands underneath my desk. I never thought anything of it until I "read" that it wasn't normal. I have always enjoyed, yes i said enjoyed, hitting walls and punching hard surfaces until my hands bleed. I feel very 'satisfied" when I can see the blood running down my hands. I like it. I know it's got to be some kind of 'disorder' but none of my past therapists have ever seemed concerned by this behavior so I don't get concerned either. My husband doesn't like it much that's for sure but there isn't anything he can do about it. Until I find something else that gives me that same sense of satisfaction, i probably won't stop. It's only ever hands and arms. Never the jugular or anything like that. I just like the pain. About ten years ago, my husband and I got into a car accident, not serious, but my knee hurt for some reason. When I got out of the car and felt the pain in my knee, I thought "why does my knee hurt? This was a fender bender, no biggie you whimp, so why does my knee hurt?" Well, I was so angry, that I walked over to the half wall that ran down the side of the road and bashed my knee against it hard so that I had a "real" reason for my knee to hurt. I can remember telling myself "there you go, NOW you have a reason to be whimpy" this kink of thing happens all the time. I burn my hand on the stove, I get angry and run it under HOT water instead of cold. I stub my toe, I get angry and kick the wall until my foot really hurts. I get total satisfaction from it. But, therapists never say anything about it. I guess if I am not slashing my wrists or being hospitalized for my injuries, it's not seen as a problem. So, it continues.I also had sort of an epiphany yesterday while walking my dog. I don't know why I'm telling you this.....anyway, I was running down the symptoms of bipolar disorder's manic state in my head while walking. I guess I was "ruminating"
So, I thought of the "spend money irresponsibly" one and thought, No, I don't do that. Then I rethought that. Well, yes I do. I may not spend money I don't have, but I do spend money on things that are stupid, trivial, or just completely useless. this is a total waste of money. I also have periods where I spend constantly, everyday, on people I know. Like, I'll buy a coffee for the pet store lady. I'll buy an expensive present for the friend I never see. Weeks of this behavior. I always think i'm just in a "being nice" phase but it's ridiculous spending. Not beyond my budget, but stupid nonetheless. Plus, the sexual promiscuity symptom. I don't sleep around, period. Never have so I never thought this one applied to me either BUT, I do have months where I am extremely flirtatious to the point of causing problems in my marriage. I will even go out on dates with other guys thinking I'm just being friendly and having fun. I'm married, happily and I always wondered why I behaved this way. I never thought it was wrong. I never recognised it as a problem and instead wondered why my husband didn't want me to have any friends. Why he couldn't understand that I just wanted to have fun and make friends. I'm not extreme. Like, I don't go from being a prude to being a slut and I don't go from being a tight-wad to buying a new car on a whim. It's more subtle like I don't even know it's happening.
I;m calling a shrink this week. I'm trying to keep all this straight in my head so I can tell the doc when I get one. If I am bipolar, I'LL tell the doc and then they can prove me wrong instead of me waiting to see if the doc wants to label me.
I really appreciate you taking the time to "check" on me Wendy. Even though I have a great husband, I DO feel very much alone sometimes.
I'll keep you up to date. Don't worry, I promise not to actually use the scissors on myself. :)
take care Wendy
Hugs
Tina> hi tina,
>
> wow. your post knocked me out. i'm not sorry i asked at all. i really feel for your situation. the only thing i'm sorry about is that you feel so badly. it's obvious that it's unhealthy for you to be going through times like these, you're in a serious phase of hypomania... impulse control is gone. at some point, those scissors are going to go through flesh, and you're going to regret it, and maybe you would have been able to avoid it. please please don't ignore this, or think there's no point in trying *again* to get help. there is a point: it's your life we're talking about, and it's worth it, worth it to me, worth it to others here on PSB, worth it to those who love you.
>
> who is with you? husband, boyfriend, children? is there anyone you can talk to at home? a close friend or relative? you need someone you can trust, who'll help you wade through the morass of symptoms, and who'll be your advocate. if there's no one, call a local hotline.
>
> it's TERRIBLE that 5 different therapeutic situations have failed you. obviously, it's going to take a special person or clinic to help you. i'd say your best bet *right now* would be to call the last one you saw, the psychiatrist, and just tell her things have gotten worse.
>
> i don't see depakote, neurontin, lamictal, topamax, etc. on your drug list. there are many many drugs for you to try. they need to be tried in such as way as there are as few in your system at one time as possible. it's hard to tell what's doing what if you're on too many (although i understand people's needs for 'cocktails.') right now, you probably need at least a mood stabilizer, even something as easy to take (few side-effects) as neurontin, 600 mg x 4 per day. i'm sure you'd feel much more able to cope. or else depakote. you've got to get smoothed out, cuz i'm afraid you're going to hurt yourself, from what you're writing. setting fire to the dog's toy because it's tripped you is not behavior that you yourself would call 'normal', as you know, because you say so. cutting your facial skin because the tic won't stop is not normal, and you'll feel worse, i'm sure, if you wind up doing it...
>
> please be careful, and write back. i'm going to keep up with you, and check in on you, but you have to do something, too. and i know it's hard right now, but things will improve, i am absolutely sure.
>
> BIG hug,
>
> wendy
Posted by Dinah on October 8, 2001, at 23:38:18
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania » Wendy B., posted by tina on October 8, 2001, at 21:00:14
Hi tina,
I hope I'm not being presumptuous to suggest the web site www.selfharm.com to you. It has a lot of good links to useful information, such as tips on minimizing damage and a list of rights and affirmations for women who self harm that you might want to read before seeing your new doctor. There is also an awful lot of self help books out there for self injurers. Try a search at Amazon.com or Barnes & Noble. I particularly recommend the memoir "Skin Game" by Caroline Kettlewell, or the books by Steven Levenkron, but that's probably just because they resonate most with me. There are lots of other good books out there, too.
In my experience, many mental health professionals have a problem with appropriately dealing with this issue. Some completely overreact, and since I am not a dramatic person, that just really turns me off. Some seem to feel that responding in any way to information about self harm will reinforce the behavior, so they won't even mention it. That can be quite disconcerting. The best of them listen, try to understand, and help with options to reduce the level of harm and to come up with alternatives. I can assure you that however they act, they all see it as a problem, even if the level of self injury is very minor, as in my case.
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2001, at 1:37:29
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania-Tina, posted by Dinah on October 8, 2001, at 23:38:18
Oops,
I'm not at all sure that was the web site I meant to refer to. The one I was thinking about is called secret shame, but I don't remember the address. You can find it by doing a Google search on "secret shame" (I think)
Posted by judy1 on October 11, 2001, at 0:24:14
In reply to Re: Bipolar Disorder without Mania » Wendy B., posted by tina on October 8, 2001, at 21:00:14
Hi Tina,
The problem with bipolar disorder is that it is the most common disorder that has comorbid disorders along with it- usually substance abuse, anxiety, self-injury (part of PTSD or DID)- you get the picture. You've gotten a lot of great advice, the rage component of mania is huge and it seems a big part of your disorder. Having lived with this disorder my whole life (father bipolar too) I found the best way to find a knowledgeable shrink is to call the local University Psychiatry dept and ask for bipolar experts and get TREATED- mood stabilizers are the key. I wish you all the best- Judy
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