![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 90 to 114 of 116. Go back in thread:
Posted by Zo on September 13, 2001, at 18:06:18
In reply to -- First Poem for the Dead --, posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 11:28:59
Posted by shelliR on September 13, 2001, at 23:03:11
In reply to Re: psycho babble open... » Krazy Kat , posted by sweetmarie on September 13, 2001, at 12:32:20
> > > I'll try to stop by this afternoon - so NY time, maybe @3:00?
> >
> > I feel like talking to, which is odd. :)
>
> Hi
>
> I`ll try and be there. Thanks,
>
> Anna.
Anna, could you create a temp e-mail address (like at Yahoo, or hotmail, or whatever they have in the UK) and post it. Not your regular e-mail address. Then I can send you distractions now and then, like pictures that I don't have the capasity to share on the board? If this feels intrusive, I understand; I thought it might be fun. Let me know.Shelli
Posted by sweetmarie on September 14, 2001, at 4:53:24
In reply to Re: psycho babble open..., posted by shelliR on September 13, 2001, at 23:03:11
> > > > I'll try to stop by this afternoon - so NY time, maybe @3:00?
> > >
> > > I feel like talking to, which is odd. :)
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I`ll try and be there. Thanks,
> >
> > Anna.
>
>
> Anna, could you create a temp e-mail address (like at Yahoo, or hotmail, or whatever they have in the UK) and post it. Not your regular e-mail address. Then I can send you distractions now and then, like pictures that I don't have the capasity to share on the board? If this feels intrusive, I understand; I thought it might be fun. Let me know.
>
> Shelli
ShelliI tried to get onto psycho babble open, but couldn`t. Actually, I had taken a sleeping tablet, so I can`t exactly remember why I couldn`t get in (a bit embarrassing ... ). I have a feeling that it had to do with setting up some kind of account ? Anyway, I`ll try again.
Re. another email address. I`ve been meaning to set up another one for awhile now, and your suggestion has prompted me to do so. It`s really kind of you to think of me - I totally appreciate it. I`ll get onto that today and let you know what it is. Maybe I can send you stuff too ... It`s not `intrusive` at all - it`s a really nice thought. I`ll let you know.
How are you feeling now?
I`ve woken up feeling really grotty and frightened that I`ve relapsed. Not that I`d got very far, anyway ... Keep trying to tell myself that there are reasons for feeling this bad (and there are many), but logic doesn`t come easy really (as I`m sure you know).
I keep thinking that my meds should be taking up more of the slack than they are. But, they were only just begining to `work`, when all this happened (coming out of hospital and back to living alone and no `after-care`, my best friend`s o/dose and subsequent rejection of me, my parents going away for 2 weeks, having to `manage` two households - my flat and my parents` house - , and now this latest horror). I guess that even the best meds can`t battle against all those odds. Or, this is what I keep telling myself.
Anyway, I`m sure you have heard enough of my moaning. Thanks for your offer - I`ll let you know when I`ve sorted it.
Love,
Anna.
Posted by sweetmarie on September 14, 2001, at 11:24:08
In reply to Re: psycho babble open... » shelliR, posted by sweetmarie on September 14, 2001, at 4:53:24
I now have a new email address -I`ve been wondering how you are ... let me know.
I seem to be on the slippery slope downwards, but I`m TRYING not to be too alarmed.
Love,
Anna.
Posted by Noa on September 14, 2001, at 17:15:21
In reply to Empathy and Depression, posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 11:14:55
I am reading this site for the first time in a long while. I am sorry, Krazy Kat, for your losses. It is overwhelming. I hope there are people nearby to connect to during this horrible time.
Posted by Noa on September 14, 2001, at 17:16:55
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened., posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 11:33:39
E-
Have you heard anything yet?
Posted by tina on September 14, 2001, at 19:49:02
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened. » Elizabeth, posted by Noa on September 14, 2001, at 17:16:55
We miss you at ASH.....
T
Posted by shelliR on September 14, 2001, at 20:39:21
In reply to Re: psycho babble open... - ShelliR, posted by sweetmarie on September 14, 2001, at 11:24:08
>
> I now have a new email address -
>
> photojennyuk@yahoo.com
>
> I`ve been wondering how you are ... let me know.
>
> I seem to be on the slippery slope downwards, but I`m TRYING not to be too alarmed.
>
> Love,
>
> Anna.Hi Anna
I am actually still having a really hard time. Instead of going into the hospital, I am trying for this weekend not to make myself work, and not to feel guilty. I have not found going into the hospital much comfort the last two times I went in, so if I can get through this at home, it will be better.
Just came back Sunday from a beautiful vacation, mostly all positive, then Tuesday afternoon I crashed so it must be related to our national crisis, although it is not linked in my mind. I don't know why I have felt so suicidal this week. I can understand being upset, but suicidal seems strange., and absolutely nonconstructive. I'm hoping this feeling will pass. Meanwhile, I have started my old MAOI (nardil) with wellbutrin. I've done wellbutrin for a few weeks now, with no antidepressant effects, but it has energized me. Hopefully restarting nardil after being off it for so long will help. You are on remeron, right? Have you experienced weight gain? I possibly might try that if the nardil doesn't work for me; my pdoc thinks wellbutrin with remeron might be a good combo and that wellbutrin would balance out a weight gain. I think I'd like to change from opiates from oxycontin to buprenorphine because the oxy is losing effect for me. So there are still a lot of things to try; I'm just scared about letting people down workwise and messing up my business.
This weekend I'll try to spend some time in my garden; It is cool enough to move plants around a bit and I'll try to catch some sales at plant shops if I'm not too late. Tonight I went to a candle-lighting vigil in my neighborhood and although I am strangely patriotic for an ex-hippy child of the 70s, it seems very strange/inappropriate to me to be singing nationalistic songs now. Actually, I was more afraid my neighbors would be singing hymns and I am not at all religious, so I would have found that more offensive. Of the three families that sponsored it, I am friendly with two, so I felt some obligation to go (although not an overwhelming one). And they had cake :-) which I don't allow myself in my house.
Take care,
Shelli
Posted by sweetmarie on September 15, 2001, at 4:12:39
In reply to Re: psycho babble open... - ShelliR » sweetmarie, posted by shelliR on September 14, 2001, at 20:39:21
> Hi Anna
>
> I am actually still having a really hard time. Instead of going into the hospital, I am trying for this weekend not to make myself work, and not to feel guilty. I have not found going into the hospital much comfort the last two times I went in, so if I can get through this at home, it will be better.
>
> Just came back Sunday from a beautiful vacation, mostly all positive, then Tuesday afternoon I crashed so it must be related to our national crisis, although it is not linked in my mind. I don't know why I have felt so suicidal this week. I can understand being upset, but suicidal seems strange., and absolutely nonconstructive. I'm hoping this feeling will pass. Meanwhile, I have started my old MAOI (nardil) with wellbutrin. I've done wellbutrin for a few weeks now, with no antidepressant effects, but it has energized me. Hopefully restarting nardil after being off it for so long will help. You are on remeron, right? Have you experienced weight gain? I possibly might try that if the nardil doesn't work for me; my pdoc thinks wellbutrin with remeron might be a good combo and that wellbutrin would balance out a weight gain. I think I'd like to change from opiates from oxycontin to buprenorphine because the oxy is losing effect for me. So there are still a lot of things to try; I'm just scared about letting people down workwise and messing up my business.
>
> This weekend I'll try to spend some time in my garden; It is cool enough to move plants around a bit and I'll try to catch some sales at plant shops if I'm not too late. Tonight I went to a candle-lighting vigil in my neighborhood and although I am strangely patriotic for an ex-hippy child of the 70s, it seems very strange/inappropriate to me to be singing nationalistic songs now. Actually, I was more afraid my neighbors would be singing hymns and I am not at all religious, so I would have found that more offensive. Of the three families that sponsored it, I am friendly with two, so I felt some obligation to go (although not an overwhelming one). And they had cake :-) which I don't allow myself in my house.
>
> Take care,
>
> Shelli
Hi againGood to hear from you, but sorry to hear you are having a hard time.
I think that this whole thing (the attacks) raises so many issues, that it`s not hard to see why people will be deeply affected, even if they are not conciously thinking about it.
Obviously (and mainly) there`s the horror of the enormity of the destruction, and the sorrow for those directly involved (those killed/injured, their friends, family etc. Also, those still waiting to hear, those who were in the cities at the time etc.). This alone is really hard to deal with, as it brings up all kinds of feelings - guilt, helplessness, pain at having witnessed death (which we did when we saw the planes hit the Trade buildings, and then when we saw the buildings collapse). I don`t think that any of us has ever witnessed death on such a scale, and even if you were not actually thinking `God, all these people are dying`, you `knew` somewhere in your subconcious. So, that alone is `enough`.
But then there`s the other stuff. We have been confronted by the fact that human beings are actually capable of such terrible things. When bad things happen on a smaller scale (murders, violence, rapes etc. - or if you live over here, the terrorist attacks carried out by the Provisional IRA), we are shaken and shocked, and wonder at the mindsets of those perpetrating the acts. But this ??? It`s just too big to comprehend. What does it say about people? What does it say to us about hatred? It`s very alarming just how far some people (the minority)will go, and what little regard these people have for human life. That in itself is very distressing.
Then there`s the question of `what next?`. What kind of precedent has been set by this? Will there be more attacks? More lives lost? There is a lot of fear and uncertainty going on as a result of this, and fear and uncertainty is a recipe for depression even in the `healthiest` of people.
There will be a response to this in terms of retaliation of some kind. Whilst this is totally necessary, it will mean further violence and more lives lost. `Revenge` is needed, but it is not a prospect that I am looking forward to. And where will it lead? Mr Bush is talking about war (quite rightly), but who wants war? It`s a scary and unpleasant prospect, whether necessary or not. I grew up during the 70s and 80s, when nuclear war was the big `bogie`. People of my age group still talk about their fear during this time (the Cold War, arms stockpiling, cruise missiles, Pershing etc.). I used to have nightmares about it on a regular basis, and we all knew that another `world war` would involve nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons are serious shit, and I think that most of us thought we`d `laid the spectre`. This is now a real possibility again. Another horrible thought.
Then there`s the other backlash - hatred and hostility towards those of the Islam religion, people from the Middle East etc. These events have brought out really violent hatred of these people. Racism has reared it`s ugly head; I think that SOME people see the people of this religion/people from the Middle East as figures of hate. It`s already happening in this country. The attacks were carried out by a fanatical fundamentalist terrorist organisation - NOT `people from the Middle East/Muslims in general`. But these people - by association - will suffer. I was talking to my sister last night - she`s in West Virginia - and she told me that a couple of Muslims had been shot in the next town to her since the attacks. It`s awful.
And, as you said, there will inevitably be a lot of patriotism and nationalistic feeling going on. I am NOT saying that this is a bad thing, but it is if it`s taken to the extreme. Like you, I feel distinctly uneasy at flag-waving, and anthem singing. Again, I am NOT saying that this is bad - what I am saying is that it does make some of us feel very uneasy. Over here we still have an amount of `Brittania rules the waves`, which surfaces at times when we are threatened (e.g. the Falklands War). I dunno ... maybe I should be more patriotic than I am, but to me it`s always tinged with racial pride, which I can`t deal with very well. I suppose that it brings certain racist factions to the surface, which is not very savoury at all.
I seem to have written an essay ... I just wanted to outline what I thought the implications of this might be. Anyone reading this who thinks that I am dismissing the severity of the situation, or dismissing US patriotism - I am not. At all. I`m just worried about some sections of any community who take this kind of thing too far.
I hope that I haven`t offended anyone - I haven`t meant to. This is a horrible time, and punishment MUST be carried out. All I`m saying is that there is plenty for us to be distressed about, and we need to know that it`s allright to feel awful. A non-depressed person`s depression and shock over these events, is a depressed person`s despair and panic. This isn`t to undermine anyone`s feelings - just being realistic about how it could effect those of us already battling depression. Those of us badly effected could so easily feel that we have `relapsed`, but we haven`t. We are reacting to the situation, as everyone is.
I`m really scared that I have offended loads of people. I`m not a horrible person, and my thoughts are constantly with the people of America. I can`t imagine how it must feel, and can only guess at the kind of despair you all are feeling. It`s hit me very hard (for the reasons I have outlined above), so goodness knows how it feels to be living in a country that has been targeted in such a way.
Once again, my thoughts are with you all. Wish I could do more.
Shelli - don`t be panicked. It`ll take us all awhile to get over this. You aren`t going mad, or spiralling into another hideous episode - just feeling shitty about what`s happened. You may not even be thinking about stuff, but it`s `there` like a big black cloud, filled with pain and fear. I have to keep reminding myself that it`s not a relapse, and mostly I don`t believe it, but is`s not. Time will ease this pain. And even the most effective meds can`t shield you from tragic events. Meds bring us up to the `level`, and therefore knocks of this kind will depress us, scare us (that we are so depressed again), and worsen the depression. Does this make sense? My meds were *beginning* to have some effect, but now ... however, this doesn`t mean that they weren`t working at all, and it doesn`t mean that they will not continue to work. Recovery is a `fluid` thing - it doesn`t happen all at once (sadly), and there will be many pitfalls. Don`t give up though - you are still climbing, and these events will strengthen you in the end (although it sure doesn`t feel like that right now).
Join me in `hanging in`,
Anna.p.s. Remeron can be an appetite stimulant. It hasn`t made me any hungrier, though, and I`ve even managed to lose a stone and a half whilst I`ve been on it - I put on 4 stone when I was on Nardil. So, I`ve still got 2 and a half stone to go. Side-effects don`t happen to everyone, and the good thing about meds that don`t actually put weight on just by taking them, i.e. appetite stimulants, is that you can control weight gain by will-power (easier said than done, but you know what I mean).
Posted by Elizabeth on September 15, 2001, at 13:39:41
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened. » Elizabeth, posted by Noa on September 14, 2001, at 17:16:55
> E-
> Have you heard anything yet?Hi Noa.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20010909/msgs/11129.html
(Big thread, isn't it?)
-e
Posted by shelliR on September 15, 2001, at 22:13:02
In reply to Re: Some Implications (long) » shelliR, posted by sweetmarie on September 15, 2001, at 4:12:39
> in general`. But these people - by association - will suffer. I was talking to my sister last night - she`s in West Virginia - and she told me that a couple of Muslims had been shot in the next town to her since the attacks. It`s awful.
>
> And, as you said, there will inevitably be a lot of patriotism and nationalistic feeling going on. I am NOT saying that this is a bad thing, but it is if it`s taken to the extreme. Like you, I feel distinctly uneasy at flag-waving, and anthem singing. Again, I am NOT saying that this is bad - what I am saying is that it does make some of us feel very uneasy. Over here we still have an amount of `Brittania rules the waves`, which surfaces at times when we are threatened (e.g. the Falklands War). I dunno ... maybe I should be more patriotic than I am, but to me it`s always tinged with racial pride, which I can`t deal with very well. I suppose that it brings certain racist factions to the surface, which is not very savoury at all.
>
> I seem to have written an essay ..Yes, and a very very good one. I don't think people will be offended and besides it was in response to my feelings about the flags. BTW, I always have a few little American flags in my garden--I grew up putting them out on holidays, before they became a symbol of the conservative right. I think America's short history is flawed (slavery, civil rights, Vietnam, etc. ) but the intent of starting a new democracy based on freedom of religion was a noble one. And even when we do lose sight of those goals, we seem always to return in that positive direction, although a bit slowly for me and my more liberal family and friends.
.
> I`m really scared that I have offended loads of people. I`m not a horrible person, and my thoughts are constantly with the people of America. I can`t imagine how it must feel, and can only guess at the kind of despair you all are feeling. It`s hit me very hard (for the reasons I have outlined above), so goodness knows how it feels to be living in a country that has been targeted in such a way.
You're a very sensitive, warm person.
> Once again, my thoughts are with you all. Wish I could do more.
> Shelli - don`t be panicked. It`ll take us all awhile to get over this. You aren`t going mad, or spiralling into another hideous episode - just feeling shitty about what`s happened. You may not even be thinking about stuff, but it`s `there` like a big black cloud, filled with pain and fear. I have to keep reminding myself that it`s not a relapse, and mostly I don`t believe it, but is`s not. Time will ease this pain. And even the most effective meds can`t shield you from tragic events. Meds bring us up to the `level`, and therefore knocks of this kind will depress us, scare us (that we are so depressed again), and worsen the depression. Does this make sense? My meds were *beginning* to have some effect, but now ... however, this doesn`t mean that they weren`t working at all, and it doesn`t mean that they will not continue to work. Recovery is a `fluid` thing - it doesn`t happen all at once (sadly), and there will be many pitfalls. Don`t give up though - you are still climbing, and these events will strengthen you in the end (although it sure doesn`t feel like that right now).
> Join me in `hanging in`,Thanks, today was a bit of a better day for me..
> p.s. Remeron can be an appetite stimulant. It hasn`t made me any hungrier, though, and I`ve even managed to lose a stone and a half whilst I`ve been on it - I put on 4 stone when I was on Nardil. So, I`ve still got 2 and a half stone to go. Side-effects don`t happen to everyone, and the good thing about meds that don`t actually put weight on just by taking them, i.e. appetite stimulants, is that you can control weight gain by will-power (easier said than done, but you know what I mean).
uh, I can't recall how many pounds to a stone! I'll have to look that one up. Search: pound, stone. I love the internet!
By the way, what is your sister doing in West Virginia? It is not very far from me, a couple of hours. It's a very beautiful, but very poor state. I haven't seen much of it, but there's a place "Harper's Ferry" where Maryland (where I live), Virginia, and West Virginia come together, and there's good hiking, rafting and kyaking there.Take care,
Shelli
Posted by sweetmarie on September 16, 2001, at 4:59:42
In reply to Re: Some Implications (long) » sweetmarie, posted by shelliR on September 15, 2001, at 22:13:02
> Yes, and a very very good one.
Thanks.
I don't think people will be offended and besides it was in response to my feelings about the flags. BTW, I always have a few little American flags in my garden--I grew up putting them out on holidays, before they became a symbol of the conservative right. I think America's short history is flawed (slavery, civil rights, Vietnam, etc. ) but the intent of starting a new democracy based on freedom of religion was a noble one. And even when we do lose sight of those goals, we seem always to return in that positive direction, although a bit slowly for me and my more liberal family and friends.
Well, if you think that America`s history is flawed - check out this country. I wouldn`t know where to begin listing the terrible things we have been involved with. At least your country started off with a sound philosophy - we were feudal up until comparatively recently. Then there`s the various atrocities of the different monarchs, colonisation (the empire), social deprivation etc, etc. Frankly, I am NOT proud of my country - quite the reverse.
> > I`m really scared that I have offended loads of people. I`m not a horrible person, and my thoughts are constantly with the people of America. I can`t imagine how it must feel, and can only guess at the kind of despair you all are feeling. It`s hit me very hard (for the reasons I have outlined above), so goodness knows how it feels to be living in a country that has been targeted in such a way.
>
> You're a very sensitive, warm person.Thanks - and I`m glad that my remarks were not offensive. As I said, they weren`t intended that way.
>
even the most effective meds can`t shield you from tragic events. Meds bring us up to the `level`, and therefore knocks of this kind will depress us, scare us (that we are so depressed again), and worsen the depression. Does this make sense? My meds were *beginning* to have some effect, but now ... however, this doesn`t mean that they weren`t working at all, and it doesn`t mean that they will not continue to work. Recovery is a `fluid` thing - it doesn`t happen all at once (sadly), and there will be many pitfalls. Don`t give up though - you are still climbing, and these events will strengthen you in the end (although it sure doesn`t feel like that right now).- Do you think that I`m right? About the meds I mean. Everyone I`ve spoken to (admittedly only my sister and parents) think that I am, but what do you think? I`d really like to know.
> Thanks, today was a bit of a better day for me..
Good - I`m pleased to hear it.
For me, this past week has been getting progressively worse ... I won`t go into boring detail, but I`m still on my own (though my parents return later today). These events have been difficult to deal with alone - I`ve spoken to Rowan daily, but it`s not the same with her being on a different continent. There`s been no one actually *here*. I did go to my day centre on Thursday, which was disappointing. I was feeling really bad, but dragged myself there (it took me ages as my car kept stalling at traffic lights/`give way`s etc.). I got there, and all the members who were there were really quite ill - in the sort of `not really with reality` type way. I mean, these are people (like me) with mental illnesses, but the ones who were there seemed to be of the psychotic types. This isn`t a problem at all, but I couldn`t have a conversation with any of them, and thought `f***, I`m like this too`. I`m probably not explaining this very well, but it was really horrible, and I stayed 1/2 an hour, left, and cried all the way home (not a good idea when you`re driving). The fact that I`ve been alone, has partly been my own fault - I cold have sorted more stuff out to do, but ... well, I didn`t.
> uh, I can't recall how many pounds to a stone! I'll have to look that one up. Search: pound, stone. I love the internet!
There are 14 pounds to a stone (and 16 ounces to a pound, if you`re interested). I still haven`t got my head around the metric system.
> By the way, what is your sister doing in West Virginia? It is not very far from me, a couple of hours. It's a very beautiful, but very poor state. I haven't seen much of it, but there's a place "Harper's Ferry" where Maryland (where I live), Virginia, and West Virginia come together, and there's good hiking, rafting and kyaking there.
She is doing a term (I think you call them semesters) at a uni there - somewhere called Huntington. She is a psychiatric nurse, but has been doing a part-time philosophy degree in Cambridge (where she lives) for the past 2 years - not at THE Cambridge University, I hasten to add. She was offered an exchange with a student from this West Virginia University, and took it. She`s been there a month now, and is just getting used to it - she hated it at first. She says that the town is pretty `dead`, but the surrounding country is lovely. Trouble is, she doesn`t drive, so she`s been kind of stuck. She does say that it`s quite poor, but pretty. What is really pissing her off is that she can`t seem to walk down a road/street whatever without getting shouted at by blokes from cars. She asked me whether or not she should be giving them the `finger`, but I told her under NO circumstances. Can you suggest anything?
Anyway, let me know what you think - on this and the meds issue.
Lots of love,
Anna.
Posted by shelliR on September 16, 2001, at 19:17:06
In reply to Re: Some Implications (long) » shelliR, posted by sweetmarie on September 16, 2001, at 4:59:42
Hi Anna,
> - Do you think that I`m right? About the meds I mean. Everyone I`ve spoken to (admittedly only my sister and parents) think that I am, but what do you think? I`d really like to know.Yes, I definitely think you are right, that medication cannot completely shield you from real life pain. And in addition, you have had some major changes: getting out of the hospital, parents leaving, and now going to a program that doesn’t feel right for you. Changes definitely bring out vulnerabilities, and since ours is depression, that is what is going to be affected.
I think you will probably return to the baseline at which you left the hospital, but I don’t know if that is good enough. This is where I am not sure how direct to be, but you wanted an honest opinion., right? You’ve been on this combination a fairly long time now; there's a point, after about six weeks to eight weeks, when the benefit pretty much stays the same (at least doesn’t go up) and that is the time to evaluate whether these meds are right, or whether you should be adding or changing something . It is hard for me to understand how after all that time, they would discharge you with only a marginal benefit (at least that’s the impression I would get from you during your weekend posts). I hope that I have misunderstood and that you *were* feeling quite a bit better during your time in the hospital, in which case, yes, you *can* expect to get back up there. In any case you will see a doctor in October (right?) and medication changes can also be made outpatient , of course.
re: your program
I am used to advocating for myself my whole life and in the US if you advocate for yourself, you *do* get further (although if your health insurance is "managed care" here, there is often not much you can do.) So maybe this is not the right place for you and they should be looking around and finding something better suited. And maybe you need to fight for this. You should not be in a program with all psychotic patients—that would not be of much, if any benefit to you. Please try not to identify--you are not psychotic; you are depressed. (Maybe there are people like you, depressed, and you missed them among the more dramatic illnesses?) In any case, can you go back and talk to the directors, or to the person you are assigned to?re your sister
What is really pissing her off is that she can’t seem to walk down a road/street whatever without getting shouted at by blokes from cars.. She asked me whether or not she should be giving them the `finger`, but I told her under NO circumstancesYou are right about that.; she wouldn’t want it to escalate. I don't know what the guys are saying, obnoxious guy things? If so ,there is really no choice but to ignore. That’s strange especially if they are near a university. She might want to discuss it at the university to see how other girls handle it.
When I am feeling really depressed (like now) it is best to distract myself from the depression. I have a hard time even discussing it. That’s why I send you a card via e-mail. Let me know if you got it; you don’t have to write back until you're in the mood, but just click reply so I know it went to the right place.See now I am a little nervous that I said too much, and said things that may not be helpful to you. That’s why I want to send you fun things.
Take care,
Shelli
Posted by sweetmarie on September 19, 2001, at 6:35:33
In reply to Re: Some Implications (long) » sweetmarie, posted by shelliR on September 16, 2001, at 19:17:06
Hi again Shelli
> Yes, I definitely think you are right, that medication cannot completely shield you from real life pain. And in addition, you have had some major changes: getting out of the hospital, parents leaving, and now going to a program that doesn’t feel right for you. Changes definitely bring out vulnerabilities, and since ours is depression, that is what is going to be affected.
>
> I think you will probably return to the baseline at which you left the hospital, but I don’t know if that is good enough. This is where I am not sure how direct to be, but you wanted an honest opinion., right? You’ve been on this combination a fairly long time now; there's a point, after about six weeks to eight weeks, when the benefit pretty much stays the same (at least doesn’t go up) and that is the time to evaluate whether these meds are right, or whether you should be adding or changing something . It is hard for me to understand how after all that time, they would discharge you with only a marginal benefit (at least that’s the impression I would get from you during your weekend posts). I hope that I have misunderstood and that you *were* feeling quite a bit better during your time in the hospital, in which case, yes, you *can* expect to get back up there. In any case you will see a doctor in October (right?) and medication changes can also be made outpatient , of course.Thanks for the feedback re. meds (above). I HAD got a bit better (i.e. `3 out of 10` as opposed to `0 out of 10` (average)). I think that you are right about `change` - it`s certainly one of my triggers. Also uncertainty - and there`s lots of that in my life - not least the International situation, which still seems very volatile to say the least. I`m really frightened about it.
The thing that I`ve maybe never mentioned is that I suffer from `double depression`, which is Dysthymia (a kind of genetic/`built-in` low mood, which I`ve had since being a child. As this is part of my `make-up`, and I`ve been like it for nearly 35 years now, it`s harder to eradicate. It`s always been a `back-drop` to my life.) plus a severe major episode. The severe episode has been going on since 1995, and has been particularly bad for the past 3 years. I was forced to stop work 3 years ago, and have had very little contact with my friends (some I haven`t seen for over 6 years, despite them living well within travelling distance. I haven`t spoken to my `best friend` for about 2 and a half years). A very large part of the past 3 years has involved being in a state of something nearing catatonia - just lying on my bed, unable to move/speak/eat etc. During this prolonged period, I mostly alternated between desperately wishing myself dead (whilst not being brave enough to do anything about it), and praying to be better.
So, I have an awful lot to `wade through`, if you see what I mean. My thought patterns have always been of the `glass half empty` variety, and I have become even more negative as the years - and illness - have progressed. Continued lack of recovery, together with my self-imposed isolation, plus all the attendant thoughts of my life as a total failure, have meant that my depression is very well established. I.e. I define myself by my depression, as it`s really all that I`ve known. So, meds alone are battling very high odds, if you see what I mean.
I have had positive results three times in the past with medication. The very first I was on worked 100% from day one. I discontinued it after a year (on my GP`s advice), became very ill again, and went back on it. Second time, it took about 7 or 8 months to have any effect. The third time I had a positive effect was `94, when I started on Seroxat (Paroxetine). By the following summer, I was having more good days than bad. But, it took all that time to happen. I was actually on holiday in the States (stayed with a friend who was living in Boston for 2 weeks - best holiday of my life) when I decided to stop taking them. This was July, and by September I was so ill I had to have 5 months off work - and eventually was asked to leave altogether.
I think that in chronic cases like mine - especially when depression is a long-term underlying problem (Dysthymia), then meds will take longer to work. My professor told me that this was the case, and I suppose that I didn`t believe him. However, it does make sense when I think about it logically.
> re: your program
> I am used to advocating for myself my whole life and in the US if you advocate for yourself, you *do* get further (although if your health insurance is "managed care" here, there is often not much you can do.) So maybe this is not the right place for you and they should be looking around and finding something better suited. And maybe you need to fight for this. You should not be in a program with all psychotic patients—that would not be of much, if any benefit to you. Please try not to identify--you are not psychotic; you are depressed. (Maybe there are people like you, depressed, and you missed them among the more dramatic illnesses?) In any case, can you go back and talk to the directors, or to the person you are assigned to?I think that there probably are depressed people at this day centre - you`re right. And I`m NOT psychotic ... I think I will take your advice and talk to the staff about it. An added complication that I didn`t mention is that there is a bloke that goes there, who I had a kind of `thing` with the first time I was in hospital. This `blast from the past` was (and is) quite unsettling. >
> re your sister
> What is really pissing her off is that she can’t seem to walk down a road/street whatever without getting shouted at by blokes from cars.. She asked me whether or not she should be giving them the `finger`, but I told her under NO circumstances
>
> You are right about that.; she wouldn’t want it to escalate. I don't know what the guys are saying, obnoxious guy things? If so ,there is really no choice but to ignore. That’s strange especially if they are near a university. She might want to discuss it at the university to see how other girls handle it.Yes - `obnoxious guy things` pretty much covers it. And I think you`re right, however horrible it is (and it`s an awful thing to have to put up with), `retaliating` would be a grave mistake. I don`t know whether she has discussed it with the other girls at college. I`ll ask her. >
>
> When I am feeling really depressed (like now) it is best to distract myself from the depression. I have a hard time even discussing it. That’s why I send you a card via e-mail. Let me know if you got it; you don’t have to write back until you're in the mood, but just click reply so I know it went to the right place.I haven`t looked in my Yahoo account yet. Actually, the truth is that I`ve tried to get into it, and couldn`t work out how to (how stupid am I?). I`ll give it another go later today - I`m braving the day centre again in about 5 mins. But, thak you ever so much for sending me stuff - it`s really nice of you to think of me. >
> See now I am a little nervous that I said too much, and said things that may not be helpful to you.
Not at all - don`t worry about that. You have been really helpful, and I appreciate it very much. It`s good of you to take the time.
That’s why I want to send you fun things.
Hopefully I`ll discover how to get to them soon. I`ll have another try when I get back from the centre, and let you know.
>
>
I hope you are O.K. - let me know.Take care yourself,
love, Anna xx
Posted by sweetmarie on September 19, 2001, at 6:40:44
In reply to Re: Some Implications (long), posted by sweetmarie on September 19, 2001, at 6:35:33
I forgot to add your name, so I thought I`d better add an explanatory post.
Anna.
Posted by shelliR on September 19, 2001, at 23:53:08
In reply to Re: Some Implications (long), posted by sweetmarie on September 19, 2001, at 6:35:33
> I haven`t looked in my Yahoo account yet. Actually, the truth is that I`ve tried to get into it, and couldn`t work out how to (how stupid am I?). I`ll give it another go later today - I`m braving the day centre again in about 5 mins. But, thak you ever so much for sending me stuff - it`s really nice of you to think of me. >to retrive yahoo e-mail.
Sign onto Yahoo (www.yahoo.com)
You'll get a page with three rows of word strings in alphabetical order at the top. In the second row, hit mail
You'll come to a page that will ask you for your password. If you don't remember they tell you want to do.
If you put in your password then you'll get to another page. On the left side, it will say get messages. Push that and you're there. I sent you my regular e-mail address because I always forget to check Yahoo, so it's better if I just have to check one place. Good luck; no need to hurry.Shelli
Posted by Adam on November 20, 2001, at 23:54:23
In reply to I'm terribly saddened., posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 9:25:25
Well, since some 'Babblers live in NYC, and what happened there has been all over the news, most of what I have to say about my trip there will not reveal much that is not already known. But I did visit, as planned, and, in some spare time, went down to "Ground Zero" to see what I could see...
I went downtown last Saturday, which would be the 17th of this month. I had spent all of my time earlier in midtown or uptown Manhattan, and, just two months after the attack, things seem remarkably normal in those parts. On Fri. night the SO and I went to a show ("Proof"...it was OK). Times Square and vincinity is still a busy mob. But not as busy. After the show, we grabbed a ride on this rickshaw instead of a cab, since the weather was so beautiful, and asked the poor guy pedaling us to Columbus Circle how the business was. He said things were about 2/3 where they were at the same time the year before, and that felt about right. Maybe a bit optimistic.
I got up pretty early the next day, and while my girlfriend was busy with work, I set out to gawk at the destruction with all the other tourists. I first got on the C train to High Street, Brooklyn, to go to the Heights and the Promenade, to take pictures where I had almost a year before, kind of a "before and after" experience. It was my first real glimpse of that part of the Manhattan. It was even more creepy than I thought it would be. The highrises of the Financial District and Lower East Side are big; they could stand as peers of the highest buildings in Boston, and there are many of them. But the Twin Towers loomed half-again as high at them, at least, and in my mind's eye, the uninterupted blue where they once stood really was astonishing.
The Promenade had scattered about it, either on the rail above the road below or on the fences behind, withered bouquets of flowers that people had tied there. There were also signs with various slogans or prayers here and there. In heaps at corners of the fencing were the broken or burned-out remains of candles, still there after all this time. I guess this was all the remains of one or many vigils, and it is a perfect spot for such a thing. It seemed strange to think, though, of all the people that must have been up there, mourning a hole in the sky. On one part of the rail was hung a nicely-framed, black-and-white photo of the Manhattan Skyline, taken from Brooklyn. All I could do when I looked at the photo was shake my head.
Getting to the immediate vicinity of Ground Zero was easy: Just hop back on the C and get off at the World Trade Center stop, near Fulton St. I walked right by Trinity Church and Wall St. before I turned toward where the towers used to be. While passing Trinity, I could see the grass in the graveyard behind it was till covered in places with grey dust.
You can only get so close to the destruction. You catch glimpses of what's left of the towers and the other wrecked buildings that were near them between other buildings, past fences and road-blocks beyond which one cannot go. Having said this, I was suprised how close I could get, in places. You can clearly see the remains of the Twin Towers in a couple of spots, most strikingly the few remaining floors of what I guess is Tower One, and the jagged sort of piece of exoskeliton of the other tower that juts up many stories above the wreckage. Yes, the wreckage is still burning, and you can smell it. It is an acrid smell, the smell of all kinds of artificial things when they burn. It was never all that overpowering, but it was certainly disturbing. Also, there is still a membrane-thin layer of the grey dust on everything. You can see it on the sides of buildings, and clinging to everything tenaciously, even though most of it has been washed away. I remember especially, as I made a circut of the what is left of the World Trade Center, how struck I was standing in front of that great glass atrium, just beyond where the bridge over West Street (and West Street, for that matter) used to be. The glass is dusty, but still reasonably transparent. The side facing the water is intact. The side facing the towers is in ruins. Through it, you see some of the destruction beyond. Gazing up above the glass gate, I could see the boarded-up windows of the AMEX and Merryl Lynch buildings. A chunk of the corner of the AMEX building had apparently been broken off. All around where the towers stood are very big buildings, now empty and derelict. The only people down there now are the workers removing the rubble, and the voyeurs like me. That spot, while I was there, was very quiet, with few people around. Without the crowds, it was easier for the sense of desolation and destructiont to sink in, and I remember distinctly that is was a very, very sad feeling. I remember quite vividly wishing I had taken the opportunity on a past trip to go up the Twin Towers, which I had never done and just figured I would get around to. I really wished, in that moment, somebody would just build them again, the same buildings, in the same place, like none of it ever happened. It really did feel terribly sad. In the quiet, in the sunlight of a gorgeous, brisk day, I found myself, as it really finally was comprehensible to me, before grave of 5,000 people who died in unspeakable horror.
But, now that I look back, I hope no one does rebuild anything there. I think someone should leave that big, jagged bit of framework standing, if it is not too dangerous, and make a tomb of the rest, once the rubble is cleared. The destruction really is awesome in its dimensions, and, like it has been said on the news, you have to see it to really get a grip on it. I think anyone who goes there in the future should have some glimpse of something there that is a fitting memorial and testament to the fates of the innocent people who died there, and the grand structures that were brought to ruin. It should remain, as it is now, one of the saddest places on earth.
> I know we have been lucky in the U.S., but this is terrible. Terrorists attacks, wherever they occur, always sadden me. But to fly airplanes into buildings holding 40,000 people -- and causing one to collapse (I'm sure a goal of the terrorist) -- I'm sure the terrorists of the world will salute this act. I've always felt another's pain pretty deeply. I need to make sure this does not trigger me -- my t is going out of town, I'm having surgery, but this is awful -- I'll never understand why anyone thinks death brings answers. I'm terrible saddened, terribly saddened.
>
> akc
Posted by mair on November 21, 2001, at 7:47:19
In reply to New York, New York, posted by Adam on November 20, 2001, at 23:54:23
> Adam - thank you for your impressions. So much of the news has shifted from NYC. You've done a wonderful job of painting a picture for me of what it must be like.
Mair
Posted by Marie1 on November 21, 2001, at 9:06:46
In reply to Re: New York, New York, posted by mair on November 21, 2001, at 7:47:19
This shouldn't be much of a surprise to any fellow babblers who know I've recently quit drinking, but one of my all time favorite bars :-) was in the financial district, close to the WTC. It fronted with French windows, almost always open, onto the street. Baskets of peanuts sitting on the bar in front of the window, and peanut shells ankle deep on the floor. We used to stop in there for lunch when we lived in NY and had occasion to go downtown. I think it was a micro-brewery? Does anyone know the name? I dug out and framed some pictures we took one time while we were there. I'm sure it no longer exists. Can anyone relate to mourning for a *bar* ???
Marie
Posted by Kristi on November 21, 2001, at 11:33:21
In reply to New York, New York, posted by Adam on November 20, 2001, at 23:54:23
Wow Adam..... I just have chills beyond belief right now. I haven't heard it described in such detail... and I picture it often. I grew up in Upstate NY but lived with my mom in Manhattan in the summers...
I have every day mourned that city's landscape, and obviously the people who died..... wanting to go see it, but in too fragile of a state to handle it. I agree with you..... I also hope they don't build anything over it. It is part of history now... but also the thought of them possibly building on top of people,.. it's unsettling.
Anyway, I wanted to thank you. You put me there without having to go there! Kristi> Well, since some 'Babblers live in NYC, and what happened there has been all over the news, most of what I have to say about my trip there will not reveal much that is not already known. But I did visit, as planned, and, in some spare time, went down to "Ground Zero" to see what I could see...
>
> I went downtown last Saturday, which would be the 17th of this month. I had spent all of my time earlier in midtown or uptown Manhattan, and, just two months after the attack, things seem remarkably normal in those parts. On Fri. night the SO and I went to a show ("Proof"...it was OK). Times Square and vincinity is still a busy mob. But not as busy. After the show, we grabbed a ride on this rickshaw instead of a cab, since the weather was so beautiful, and asked the poor guy pedaling us to Columbus Circle how the business was. He said things were about 2/3 where they were at the same time the year before, and that felt about right. Maybe a bit optimistic.
>
> I got up pretty early the next day, and while my girlfriend was busy with work, I set out to gawk at the destruction with all the other tourists. I first got on the C train to High Street, Brooklyn, to go to the Heights and the Promenade, to take pictures where I had almost a year before, kind of a "before and after" experience. It was my first real glimpse of that part of the Manhattan. It was even more creepy than I thought it would be. The highrises of the Financial District and Lower East Side are big; they could stand as peers of the highest buildings in Boston, and there are many of them. But the Twin Towers loomed half-again as high at them, at least, and in my mind's eye, the uninterupted blue where they once stood really was astonishing.
>
> The Promenade had scattered about it, either on the rail above the road below or on the fences behind, withered bouquets of flowers that people had tied there. There were also signs with various slogans or prayers here and there. In heaps at corners of the fencing were the broken or burned-out remains of candles, still there after all this time. I guess this was all the remains of one or many vigils, and it is a perfect spot for such a thing. It seemed strange to think, though, of all the people that must have been up there, mourning a hole in the sky. On one part of the rail was hung a nicely-framed, black-and-white photo of the Manhattan Skyline, taken from Brooklyn. All I could do when I looked at the photo was shake my head.
>
> Getting to the immediate vicinity of Ground Zero was easy: Just hop back on the C and get off at the World Trade Center stop, near Fulton St. I walked right by Trinity Church and Wall St. before I turned toward where the towers used to be. While passing Trinity, I could see the grass in the graveyard behind it was till covered in places with grey dust.
>
> You can only get so close to the destruction. You catch glimpses of what's left of the towers and the other wrecked buildings that were near them between other buildings, past fences and road-blocks beyond which one cannot go. Having said this, I was suprised how close I could get, in places. You can clearly see the remains of the Twin Towers in a couple of spots, most strikingly the few remaining floors of what I guess is Tower One, and the jagged sort of piece of exoskeliton of the other tower that juts up many stories above the wreckage. Yes, the wreckage is still burning, and you can smell it. It is an acrid smell, the smell of all kinds of artificial things when they burn. It was never all that overpowering, but it was certainly disturbing. Also, there is still a membrane-thin layer of the grey dust on everything. You can see it on the sides of buildings, and clinging to everything tenaciously, even though most of it has been washed away. I remember especially, as I made a circut of the what is left of the World Trade Center, how struck I was standing in front of that great glass atrium, just beyond where the bridge over West Street (and West Street, for that matter) used to be. The glass is dusty, but still reasonably transparent. The side facing the water is intact. The side facing the towers is in ruins. Through it, you see some of the destruction beyond. Gazing up above the glass gate, I could see the boarded-up windows of the AMEX and Merryl Lynch buildings. A chunk of the corner of the AMEX building had apparently been broken off. All around where the towers stood are very big buildings, now empty and derelict. The only people down there now are the workers removing the rubble, and the voyeurs like me. That spot, while I was there, was very quiet, with few people around. Without the crowds, it was easier for the sense of desolation and destructiont to sink in, and I remember distinctly that is was a very, very sad feeling. I remember quite vividly wishing I had taken the opportunity on a past trip to go up the Twin Towers, which I had never done and just figured I would get around to. I really wished, in that moment, somebody would just build them again, the same buildings, in the same place, like none of it ever happened. It really did feel terribly sad. In the quiet, in the sunlight of a gorgeous, brisk day, I found myself, as it really finally was comprehensible to me, before grave of 5,000 people who died in unspeakable horror.
>
> But, now that I look back, I hope no one does rebuild anything there. I think someone should leave that big, jagged bit of framework standing, if it is not too dangerous, and make a tomb of the rest, once the rubble is cleared. The destruction really is awesome in its dimensions, and, like it has been said on the news, you have to see it to really get a grip on it. I think anyone who goes there in the future should have some glimpse of something there that is a fitting memorial and testament to the fates of the innocent people who died there, and the grand structures that were brought to ruin. It should remain, as it is now, one of the saddest places on earth.
>
> > I know we have been lucky in the U.S., but this is terrible. Terrorists attacks, wherever they occur, always sadden me. But to fly airplanes into buildings holding 40,000 people -- and causing one to collapse (I'm sure a goal of the terrorist) -- I'm sure the terrorists of the world will salute this act. I've always felt another's pain pretty deeply. I need to make sure this does not trigger me -- my t is going out of town, I'm having surgery, but this is awful -- I'll never understand why anyone thinks death brings answers. I'm terrible saddened, terribly saddened.
> >
> > akc
Posted by fi on November 22, 2001, at 7:54:56
In reply to New York, New York, posted by Adam on November 20, 2001, at 23:54:23
I live in UK, and wanted to emphasise what I hope those of you in US know; there was a vast amount of shock and concern outside the US for you, and the people of many nations who worked in the Towers. It is the most appalling catastrophe, and you have been in our thoughts. I even found a message of sympathy on a Dutch based art history website on 11th, alongside their biographies of Rembrandt and Vermeer.
I am familiar with terrorism, although of course on a smaller scale. I have heard a couple of bombs go off (the first killed people in Harrods many years ago, the second fortunately none), and it is horrible to recognise the sound. I also travelled through Bishopgate (part of the City of London) after a bomb, when fortunately there were few injuries. But I remember the feeling of shock I felt when I swa at the damaged church and acres and acres of broken windows in the surrounding tower blocks.
I am not in any way comparing the *scale* of this to what happened in New York and Washington, just trying to explain that there is huge empathy/sympathy for you. And I know everyone I have talked to was particularly concerned when the plane crash in New York happened recently- how dreadful for that ravaged community to suffer again.
Fi
> Well, since some 'Babblers live in NYC, and what happened there has been all over the news, most of what I have to say about my trip there will not reveal much that is not already known. But I did visit, as planned, and, in some spare time, went down to "Ground Zero" to see what I could see...
Posted by mist on November 22, 2001, at 12:27:34
In reply to Re: New York, New York, posted by fi on November 22, 2001, at 7:54:56
fi, I want to express my appreciation for your caring and concern about what's happened in this country. I haven't read all the other messages on this thread but this last one caught my eye today. It was a nice one to read, thank you for posting it.-mist
> I live in UK, and wanted to emphasise what I hope those of you in US know; there was a vast amount of shock and concern outside the US for you, and the people of many nations who worked in the Towers. It is the most appalling catastrophe, and you have been in our thoughts. I even found a message of sympathy on a Dutch based art history website on 11th, alongside their biographies of Rembrandt and Vermeer.
>
> I am familiar with terrorism, although of course on a smaller scale. I have heard a couple of bombs go off (the first killed people in Harrods many years ago, the second fortunately none), and it is horrible to recognise the sound. I also travelled through Bishopgate (part of the City of London) after a bomb, when fortunately there were few injuries. But I remember the feeling of shock I felt when I swa at the damaged church and acres and acres of broken windows in the surrounding tower blocks.
>
> I am not in any way comparing the *scale* of this to what happened in New York and Washington, just trying to explain that there is huge empathy/sympathy for you. And I know everyone I have talked to was particularly concerned when the plane crash in New York happened recently- how dreadful for that ravaged community to suffer again.
>
> Fi
>
> > Well, since some 'Babblers live in NYC, and what happened there has been all over the news, most of what I have to say about my trip there will not reveal much that is not already known. But I did visit, as planned, and, in some spare time, went down to "Ground Zero" to see what I could see...
Posted by Fi on November 22, 2001, at 16:58:53
In reply to Re: New York, New York » fi, posted by mist on November 22, 2001, at 12:27:34
Mist; its what everyone I know would want to say too. None of us can *do* anything, but thinking of you. I suppose its a benefit of this service that it gives me a way of passing this on.
Thanks for the thanks.fi
Posted by sar on November 22, 2001, at 19:00:45
In reply to Re: New York, New York, posted by Fi on November 22, 2001, at 16:58:53
around the time the terrosrist attacks happened, i contributed to a controversial thread in which i stated that i probably wouldn't feel the effect until i wasn't able to shop at the mall anymore.
Adam, your description of "New York, New York" was incredible. Since the attacks, i've stared at photos in magazines and (quickly published) books finally...felt something. there was a cover on one magazine of a business man covered entirely in grey soot, head down, carrying a briefcase...it was heartbreaking.
last night i looked through a photography book recording the events and could hardly believe that 1) this happened and 2) i can't feel it enough. all around my city people now drive around with patriotic symbols on their cars, or stickered on their homes, and i become frightened for the innocent Afghanis and Pakistanis who live here...
Adam, you mentioned the burning smell. this may have touched me the most, as my home burned down the day after christmas last year. the smell still remains not only heavily in the house but in my mind. i am glad to be alive--and that my 11 roomates and 3 cats survived as well--but i am also grateful to be that close to danger and loss.
the smell will never go away.i can't comprehend all of the deaths, but photographers have captured stunning pictures of people mourning. my daily newspaper has been printing short tidbits on the confirmed-dead...what they did in life, believed in, etc...
anyway, i just wanted to apologize for any insensitive comments i made in september. it's all slowly sinking in...
thank you
Posted by Noa on November 27, 2001, at 17:10:04
In reply to Re: New York, New York--Adam, posted by sar on November 22, 2001, at 19:00:45
> Adam, you mentioned the burning smell. this may have touched me the most, as my home burned down the day after christmas last year
This helps us to understand your feeling removed. You are still recovering from your own trauma, maybe?
Besides, our "knowing" about the terrorist attacks is, for most of us, rather abstract, isn't it? It is hard for it to sink in.
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