![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 9, 2001, at 0:57:53
Hi everybody,
I have suffered from major, clinical depression
since I have been 9 years old. I have always wanted
to glean some of the rewards & joys in life that
some others seem to have,
(eg. productivity, a happy marriage, good sex,
earning good money, and being relatively anxiety-free). I cannot tell if my therapist is right or not,
but she seems to feel that I can "think my way" out of
depression with love and the right attitude. And she
feels that I am now ready to start coming off of the meds that I have been on for 23 years.
Also, there are times when I can actually get
the energy to wake up earlier in the morning. But
most of the time, I cannot... because it is very, very
hard for me to fall asleep at night, unless I take
addictive medicines like Xanax and Restoril. So,
she feels that when my sleeping patterns are "out of wack" it is because I have bad habits and that I am
undisciplined; she seems to think that if I can get up early every once in a while, then I should be able to do it all the time. She also seems
to think that self-love and God are the main factors
that will get me over my depression.
Now, I am not discounting anything that she is
saying to me; all I am saying is that "talk" like this
tends to make me feel much more frustrated and depressed, as if I am lazy or do not want to succeed, or that I just want to be resistent (She says that
because my IQ is high; I am a genius at staying depressed). I know that I do work very hard at
changing my thought patterns, but often my brain
feels like molasses. I do everything I can to try
to fall asleep earlier, etc...
Maybe she is right about
all of this; however, I would be grateful to anyone
who wants to respond.Glenn
Posted by kazoo on June 9, 2001, at 2:08:43
In reply to Can one think their way out of major depression?, posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 9, 2001, at 0:57:53
Do what I do, with great success: don't think about it.
But in your case, if you question whether it's possible you can think yourself out of a major depression indicates to me that, perhaps, you feel you thought your way into one to begin with.
So what you have to do is to back-track, or, as they say in the Geek-World, do a bit of "reverse engineering."
Enter Dr. Freud: this is where I feel the need for psychoanalysis. Exposing the crap in the unconscious does wonders for the conscious. IMHO, the old boy was right after all, what can I say.
(Which brings me to the off-topic subject of: does anyone believe that Sigmund might have had a hankering for Wilhelm Fliess? If so, did they exchange "Friendship" rings?)
On a more serious plane, Glenn, you're over-doing it with this self-arm-chair analysis. I have run into people who actually gain a certain self-satisfaction from their depression and woes, and this is what sustains them to continue.
As far as taking sleeping pills for extended periods of time: no big whoop. I've been doing it for 36 years and not once have I considered myself habituated. And I will continue to do so until the day I croak.
This business about "self-love" and "God" is pablum. If you haven't been able to lick your depression after all these years and all the medication you must have taken, then learn to accept it, and gain from it. I know this must sound radical and unsound, but this is how I cope. And this is the only way I am able to cope. As I have said many times in many of my posts, my life is not a walk in the park either and it never was.
If you enjoy talking to your current therapist, and gain from your sessions, then continue to do so, but bear in mind that what she's telling you (between the lines) is that she's at the end of her rope, too, so you may want to consider more dramatic approachs, as outlined above in various direct/indirect ways.
There is one other thing that you must come to grips with: only you are the master of your own thoughts and destiny. Only you can control the way things are. When handed a lemon, make lemonade (with a sugar substitute, please). Unless you experience a major "Road-to-Damascus" epiphany, then expect to be the way you are for the rest of your life. Like it or not, it's very much there ... work with it, learn from it and deal with it.
kazoo
Posted by robinibor on June 9, 2001, at 9:54:14
In reply to Can one think their way out of major depression?, posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 9, 2001, at 0:57:53
Hi Glenn
Your situation sounds very familiar to me; much of it is how DO'C is/was/dealt with his own depression. Have you ever read Undoing Depression? Or seen our website at http://www.undoingdepression.com?
And have you ever got a "second opinion" from another therapist?
I would be grateful to anyone
> who wants to respond.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
Posted by Phil on June 9, 2001, at 10:06:08
In reply to Can one think their way out of major depression?, posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 9, 2001, at 0:57:53
I know this analogy has been beat to death but, can a diabetic think their way out of diabetes?
If a person could will themselves out of depression, this board wouldn't exist. And this board is getting busier everyday.
Posted by mila on June 9, 2001, at 11:02:44
In reply to Re: Can one think their way out of major depression?, posted by Phil on June 9, 2001, at 10:06:08
I agree with Phil. When the depression is major, the only kind of thinking that will help is 'how to find the best psychiatrist in the world to get myself out of this pit'. When the depression starts to go away it is necessary IMO to support it with some kind of therapy, changing thinking and behavioral habits, etc.
mila
Posted by sar on June 9, 2001, at 11:12:13
In reply to Re: Can one think their way out of major depression?, posted by Phil on June 9, 2001, at 10:06:08
What do yall make of this? I've been turning it over in my head all week.
During our last appointment, my psychoanalyst told me that she thinks purely biological depression is relatively rare, and that personality disorder usually precedes depression, and that depression generally stems from maladaptive coping patterns (personality disorders are labels for groups of maladaptive coping patterns). Like Glenn, I've been depressed since I was a kid...which, in my psychoanalyst's opinion, would mean that I've almost always had maladaptive coping patterns.
I respect the diabetes analogy, but I just don't buy it completely. My thoughts at this moment are that depression is more like an inherited predisposition to obesity--you'll have to work like hell to keep the weight off, more so than the average person, & maybe you'll always be a bit chunky, but it *is* possible to beat it back...
(Caveat empor: I say all of this as a relatively young, severely depressed slim person.)
sar
Posted by Wendy B. on June 9, 2001, at 13:20:00
In reply to Re: Can one think their way out of major depression? » Glenn Fagelson, posted by kazoo on June 9, 2001, at 2:08:43
> Do what I do, with great success: don't think about it.
>
> But in your case, if you question whether it's possible you can think yourself out of a major depression indicates to me that, perhaps, you feel you thought your way into one to begin with.
>
> So what you have to do is to back-track, or, as they say in the Geek-World, do a bit of "reverse engineering."
>
> Enter Dr. Freud: this is where I feel the need for psychoanalysis. Exposing the crap in the unconscious does wonders for the conscious. IMHO, the old boy was right after all, what can I say.
>
> (Which brings me to the off-topic subject of: does anyone believe that Sigmund might have had a hankering for Wilhelm Fliess? If so, did they exchange "Friendship" rings?)
>
> On a more serious plane, Glenn, you're over-doing it with this self-arm-chair analysis. I have run into people who actually gain a certain self-satisfaction from their depression and woes, and this is what sustains them to continue.
>
> As far as taking sleeping pills for extended periods of time: no big whoop. I've been doing it for 36 years and not once have I considered myself habituated. And I will continue to do so until the day I croak.
>
> This business about "self-love" and "God" is pablum. If you haven't been able to lick your depression after all these years and all the medication you must have taken, then learn to accept it, and gain from it. I know this must sound radical and unsound, but this is how I cope. And this is the only way I am able to cope. As I have said many times in many of my posts, my life is not a walk in the park either and it never was.
>
> If you enjoy talking to your current therapist, and gain from your sessions, then continue to do so, but bear in mind that what she's telling you (between the lines) is that she's at the end of her rope, too, so you may want to consider more dramatic approachs, as outlined above in various direct/indirect ways.
>
> There is one other thing that you must come to grips with: only you are the master of your own thoughts and destiny. Only you can control the way things are. When handed a lemon, make lemonade (with a sugar substitute, please). Unless you experience a major "Road-to-Damascus" epiphany, then expect to be the way you are for the rest of your life. Like it or not, it's very much there ... work with it, learn from it and deal with it.
>
> kazooGuys & girls,
Whoah! How come we're not all telling Glenn to RUN, not walk, away from a therapist who talks God, and who believes he can WILL away depression? Wow.
There's a difference between accepting the depression that life has dealt us, like bad cards in a card game. But please, don't give us the old "pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps" mentality. It just doesn't work like that.
Yes, you need to go to therapy and take your meds, and cope with life as best you can. But Glenn, don't beleve this therapist for a moment. You are not guilty, and not responsible for being saddled with depression. You never asked for this hell you've experienced, just the same as you never asked for brown eyes and curly dark hair (my therapist's wonderful analogy...)
Please find another therapist, Glenn!Wendy
Posted by robinibor on June 9, 2001, at 18:54:57
In reply to Re: Can one think their way out of major depression? » kazoo, posted by Wendy B. on June 9, 2001, at 13:20:00
I agree Wendy. I just didn't have the guts to come out and say it, just beating around the bush. (Hey, I like that term. It reminds me of a very funny website I just got that was very political. Maybe I'll dig it up and send it.)
>
> Whoah! How come we're not all telling Glenn to RUN, not walk, away from a therapist who talks God, and who believes he can WILL away depression? Wow.
> There's a difference between accepting the depression that life has dealt us, like bad cards in a card game. But please, don't give us the old "pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps" mentality. It just doesn't work like that.
> Yes, you need to go to therapy and take your meds, and cope with life as best you can. But Glenn, don't beleve this therapist for a moment. You are not guilty, and not responsible for being saddled with depression. You never asked for this hell you've experienced, just the same as you never asked for brown eyes and curly dark hair (my therapist's wonderful analogy...)
> Please find another therapist, Glenn!
>
> Wendy
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 9, 2001, at 20:11:47
In reply to Re: Can one think their way out of major depression?, posted by robinibor on June 9, 2001, at 18:54:57
> I agree Wendy. I just didn't have the guts to come out and say it, just beating around the bush. (Hey, I like that term. It reminds me of a very funny website I just got that was very political. Maybe I'll dig it up and send it.)
> >
> > Whoah! How come we're not all telling Glenn to RUN, not walk, away from a therapist who talks God, and who believes he can WILL away depression? Wow.
> > There's a difference between accepting the depression that life has dealt us, like bad cards in a card game. But please, don't give us the old "pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps" mentality. It just doesn't work like that.
> > Yes, you need to go to therapy and take your meds, and cope with life as best you can. But Glenn, don't beleve this therapist for a moment. You are not guilty, and not responsible for being saddled with depression. You never asked for this hell you've experienced, just the same as you never asked for brown eyes and curly dark hair (my therapist's wonderful analogy...)
> > Please find another therapist, Glenn!
> >
> > WendyThank you all for your imput! I do not
know what to say at this point. My therapist
had clinical depression herself for 7 years
and she figures that if she could get out of
her depression so can I. She is a therapist
that tries to treat depression in
non-conventional ways. I went to her in the
first place because of the fact that she used
to be depressed and was on medications for it
herself. She really is a very loving person
and has helped many people. She is very much
into the Eastern ways of approaching
depression. I need to talk to her about
this business of "thinking" your way out of
depression. She thinks that I am doing so
good now that I am ready to slowly come off
of my medications. It is so hard for me to
be objective about myself and often I rely
on other people to tell me if I seem to be
doing better. I am kinda rambling on here
which shows you that I am a bit confused right
now.Thank you, Glenn
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 9, 2001, at 20:26:21
In reply to Re: Can one think their way out of major depression?, posted by robinibor on June 9, 2001, at 9:54:14
> Hi Glenn
> Your situation sounds very familiar to me; much of it is how DO'C is/was/dealt with his own depression. Have you ever read Undoing Depression? Or seen our website at http://www.undoingdepression.com?
> And have you ever got a "second opinion" from another therapist?
>
>
> I would be grateful to anyone
> > who wants to respond.
> >
> > GlennDear Robinor,
I cannot begin to tell you how many
psychotherapists I have been to. I have
had such a bad case of refractory depression
that psychotherapy has been good for
cathartic purposes and has helped me to
stay alive. I think the therapist that I
am seeing now wants me to be less hard on
myself; she thinks that I am such a wonderful
person with such a gentle soul. She wants
me to see what I wonderful person that I am
and that once I do, I will stop being
clinically depressed. Maybe she has a point
there; I do not know at this point. She
really is coming from a very loving place.Thank you for your response,
Glenn
> >
> >
> >
Posted by JennyR on June 9, 2001, at 21:43:29
In reply to Can one think their way out of major depression?, posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 9, 2001, at 0:57:53
I don't think you can "think your way out of depression" but maybe she meant what the cognitive therapy people, and others, say - to catch any negative thinking and try to turn it around. I know I often put a negative spin on things that others might put a positive spin on. The negative thoughts go along with the depressed mood which go along with the physical side (sleep, eating, energy). One approach is to deal with the negative thoughts.
But the God stuff seems pretty out there for a therapist. But self-love - not a bad thing to strive for. But medication is important too if it helps.
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 10, 2001, at 0:34:56
In reply to Re: Can one think their way out of major depression?, posted by JennyR on June 9, 2001, at 21:43:29
> I don't think you can "think your way out of depression" but maybe she meant what the cognitive therapy people, and others, say - to catch any negative thinking and try to turn it around. I know I often put a negative spin on things that others might put a positive spin on. The negative thoughts go along with the depressed mood which go along with the physical side (sleep, eating, energy). One approach is to deal with the negative thoughts.
> But the God stuff seems pretty out there for a therapist. But self-love - not a bad thing to strive for. But medication is important too if it helps.Thanks again, JennyR!
Maybe, I had better clarify myself. My
therapist thinks that my depression will
lift more & more, the better that I can
align myself with the peace and love of
God. She is my spiritual counselor in that
sense. She feels that the more I feel the
love of God, the more I will begin to be
able to love myself. I do not want to get
into religion here because I do not know
what your faith is; hence, I would not want
to offend you. I know how strong an issue
religion is to many people. There is one
book that I have just read; it is called
"Conversations with God". It is not a
religious book, but rather a spiritual book.
It might be a very good book for you to read
in light of your marriage and the struggles
you are having with it. This is just a
suggestion. "Conversations with God" is
3 volumes long and can be checked out of
any library. The author is Neale Donald
Walsh (or Walsch). I found the book to be
very enlightening; and, in some ways, it has
changed my outlook on life. If you do read
it, tell me what you think. Again, Jenny,
thank you for your feedback; therapy is not
an easy thing to go through, is it?Glenn
Posted by Phil on June 10, 2001, at 9:29:26
In reply to Re: Can one think their way out of major depression? » JennyR, posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 10, 2001, at 0:34:56
Glenn, I was seeing a therapist several years ago who was a recovering alcoholic. There was lots of talk about God but in the same way 12 step groups, or each individual member, define God. If you were to mention tradional religion in some meetings, it might not go over too well.
Each person is defining God as they see it.
The group consciousness could be God, nature or whatever.
I don't run away screaming at the mention of God unless it's coming from the religious right.
I made a lot of progress in my therapy with this person and never felt that I was being pushed one way or the other.
Your therapist seems to be coming from that line of thinking and if you are benefitting from your time with her, keep going.
But, before throwing out the meds, get a scientific opinion from your pdoc.Ramblin,
Phil
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 10, 2001, at 16:39:21
In reply to Re: Can one think their way out of major depression?, posted by Phil on June 10, 2001, at 9:29:26
> Glenn, I was seeing a therapist several years ago who was a recovering alcoholic. There was lots of talk about God but in the same way 12 step groups, or each individual member, define God. If you were to mention tradional religion in some meetings, it might not go over too well.
> Each person is defining God as they see it.
> The group consciousness could be God, nature or whatever.
> I don't run away screaming at the mention of God unless it's coming from the religious right.
> I made a lot of progress in my therapy with this person and never felt that I was being pushed one way or the other.
> Your therapist seems to be coming from that line of thinking and if you are benefitting from your time with her, keep going.
> But, before throwing out the meds, get a scientific opinion from your pdoc.
>
> Ramblin,
> PhilThank you, Phil!
Glenn
Posted by Mair on June 10, 2001, at 22:25:58
In reply to Re: Can one think their way out of major depression?, posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 10, 2001, at 16:39:21
> > Sorry Glenn but I just checked in after being away for a few days, and felt I had to weigh in here.
First of all, I don't think you should sweat the sleep drugs. I've been taking small amounts of klonopin on a daily basis for years and periodically I, too, have worried alot about my dependency on this drug or others like it. Fortunately it's no longer an issue that seems to haunt me like it used to. Both my prescribing pdoc and my internist have told me repeatedly that I'm not taking it in large enough doses to really develop a physical dependency, altho I do think I'm psychologically dependent. More importantly lack of sleep has been an obvious trigger for so many depression relapses, that at some point I made up my mind that taking sleep meds was a small price to pay to avoid sleep deprivation.
Secondly, I, and not my therapist and ex-therapist, got on this real kick for awhile (and still occasionally) that I should be able to will myself out of depression. I don't know where this came from except that when I feel okay, I can't imagine why I succumb so easily. A corollary to this is that I must not want to stop being depressed because if I really was resolved, I wouldn't fall into poor thought patterns and I would more seriously adopt a lifestyle more conducive to keeping depression at bay (eg, mostly I'd vigorously exercise on a consistent basis, and try to find any way to switch careers and/or my job). Fortunately, no therapist I've had has ever tried to encourage that line of thinking, since self-blame isn't very productive for the chronically depressed. She may be very loving and well-intentioned, and there are no doubt alot of things she sees which we can't, but I'd certainly not stop taking ADs without the blessing of a pdoc, and the fact that you are so confused about what she wants you to do, tells me that she's not communicating very well with you on this issue, or that she needs to help you feel alot more comfortable before you head out in a new direction. Good luck
Mair
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 11, 2001, at 0:06:17
In reply to all this sounds familiar, posted by Mair on June 10, 2001, at 22:25:58
> > > Sorry Glenn but I just checked in after being away for a few days, and felt I had to weigh in here.
>
> First of all, I don't think you should sweat the sleep drugs. I've been taking small amounts of klonopin on a daily basis for years and periodically I, too, have worried alot about my dependency on this drug or others like it. Fortunately it's no longer an issue that seems to haunt me like it used to. Both my prescribing pdoc and my internist have told me repeatedly that I'm not taking it in large enough doses to really develop a physical dependency, altho I do think I'm psychologically dependent. More importantly lack of sleep has been an obvious trigger for so many depression relapses, that at some point I made up my mind that taking sleep meds was a small price to pay to avoid sleep deprivation.
>
> Secondly, I, and not my therapist and ex-therapist, got on this real kick for awhile (and still occasionally) that I should be able to will myself out of depression. I don't know where this came from except that when I feel okay, I can't imagine why I succumb so easily. A corollary to this is that I must not want to stop being depressed because if I really was resolved, I wouldn't fall into poor thought patterns and I would more seriously adopt a lifestyle more conducive to keeping depression at bay (eg, mostly I'd vigorously exercise on a consistent basis, and try to find any way to switch careers and/or my job). Fortunately, no therapist I've had has ever tried to encourage that line of thinking, since self-blame isn't very productive for the chronically depressed. She may be very loving and well-intentioned, and there are no doubt alot of things she sees which we can't, but I'd certainly not stop taking ADs without the blessing of a pdoc, and the fact that you are so confused about what she wants you to do, tells me that she's not communicating very well with you on this issue, or that she needs to help you feel alot more comfortable before you head out in a new direction. Good luck
>
> Mair
Dear Mair,
You hit it right on the spot! I say the
same thing to myself, that when I am feeling
relatively okay and then get depressed
(within a day or two), I tend to tell
myself that I must not really want to get
better or else I would have put in some checks
& balances to prevent the depression from
coming back. (My Dad after all these years
still tells me to snap out of it.)When I can't
seem to get motivated, I will start to
tell myself that I am either lazy or that I
have a characterological problem or that I
a "success" phobia. The therapist that I have
been seeing thinks that I just have a fear
of success, and she also thinks that we
create our own illnesses. After living
with major, clinical depression for over
40 years, it still amazes me that I cannot
at times believe that I have a real
legitimate illness like diabetes or
epilepsy. There are still way too many
people out there in the world (therapists
& non-therapists) who believe that clinical
depression is strictly a psychological
phenomena. And I seem to buy into it! I would like to believe that
my depression is strictly psychological bec.
that would give me greater hope; however, the
pattern of my illness and its chronicity
tells another story of a condition that is
not really a neurotic problem, but rather a
real physical illness. I need weekly support
to talk things out, but I have just about had
it with pychotherapists.Thank you for responding and thank
you for listening to me.
Glenn
Posted by rosalinda on June 11, 2001, at 2:03:58
In reply to Re: all this sounds familiar, posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 11, 2001, at 0:06:17
when I am feeling
> relatively okay and then get depressed
> (within a day or two), I tend to tell
> myself that I must not really want to get
> better or else I would have put in some checks
> & balances to prevent the depression from
> coming back.Hi, Glenn--I know that feeling well; isn't it amazing that we can know so much about this disease and still succumb to the "it's-all-in-the-head" thinking? One thing that helps me keep from getting down on myself is reminding myself that being unable to engage in normal activities (like exercise, healthy eating, all that stuff we're supposed to do) is one of the symptoms of depression itself--it's not that we're uncommitted, it's just that the disease itself knocks out our ability to do these things.
You mentioned in another post that your therapist has suffered from depression herself. It's comforting to have a professional who knows from personal experience what you're going through, but don't forget that everyone's case is different. She found a way of coping that works for her--although it's also possible that her depression went into remission of its own accord; I'm never able to tell when a treatment is really working vs. when the disease has lifted by itself--but that doesn't mean it's the right way for you. I think it was Phil who said you should talk to your MD before dropping your meds, and I agree with him--if nothing else, you need to have a physician monitoring your health as you ease off of the drugs (withdrawal is no picnic!).
Best of luck!
Rosalind
Posted by Anna Laura on June 11, 2001, at 2:41:17
In reply to Can one think their way out of major depression?, posted by Glenn Fagelson on June 9, 2001, at 0:57:53
> Hi everybody,
>
> I have suffered from major, clinical depression
> since I have been 9 years old. I have always wanted
> to glean some of the rewards & joys in life that
> some others seem to have,
> (eg. productivity, a happy marriage, good sex,
> earning good money, and being relatively anxiety-free). I cannot tell if my therapist is right or not,
> but she seems to feel that I can "think my way" out of
> depression with love and the right attitude. And she
> feels that I am now ready to start coming off of the meds that I have been on for 23 years.
> Also, there are times when I can actually get
> the energy to wake up earlier in the morning. But
> most of the time, I cannot... because it is very, very
> hard for me to fall asleep at night, unless I take
> addictive medicines like Xanax and Restoril. So,
> she feels that when my sleeping patterns are "out of wack" it is because I have bad habits and that I am
> undisciplined; she seems to think that if I can get up early every once in a while, then I should be able to do it all the time. She also seems
> to think that self-love and God are the main factors
> that will get me over my depression.
> Now, I am not discounting anything that she is
> saying to me; all I am saying is that "talk" like this
> tends to make me feel much more frustrated and depressed, as if I am lazy or do not want to succeed, or that I just want to be resistent (She says that
> because my IQ is high; I am a genius at staying depressed). I know that I do work very hard at
> changing my thought patterns, but often my brain
> feels like molasses. I do everything I can to try
> to fall asleep earlier, etc...
>
>
>
> Maybe she is right about
> all of this; however, I would be grateful to anyone
> who wants to respond.
>
> GlennHi Glenn, Hi All,
This is my first post on Social Babble (i've been posting on Psycho Babble only).
First, my usual premise: english it's not my language, i'm posting from Europe, so pardon me if i make mistakes.Glenn,
I'm really sorry you've been suffering so much .I feel lucky compared to you: at least i tasted life until i was 21 years old (i'm 32 right now).
I think changing cognitive patterns plays a role, a big role for someone, a little one for others.
For some of depressed people it's really the key to overcome the disease.
I remember i read on The Becks' book on Cognitive Therapy about a woman who has been suffering from major depression for a looong time (throughout her adult life) who got cured with cognitive therapy (basically it's about thinking yourself out of depression, changing old thinking habits and so on).
But some of us are not responding to that. I think that the solutions/possibilities are unlimited and countless, every one of us has to find a personal solution that fits his/her state of mind i guess. As far as i am concerned, it works only when i'm mildly depressed.
Last Summer i succeeded in thinking myself out of depression and took a huge "cognitive jump".
How i managed to do that it's really too long to tell. Well, i was still depressed but it was like my "mental visual " grew wider and wider, do you know what i mean? It was like having been living inside a small cell/box and coming out in the huge wide world all of a sudden. It was shocking 'cause i wasn't prepared for the experience. I felt like all of my skin was peeled off, ultra-sensitive and scared as hell. Thought i was getting crazy: my basic, obsessive thought was: "if i can get myself out of depression i can go crazy as well".
Depression was like a kind a heavy but somehow comfortable blanket i've been wearing for so long that i felt like i was naked and vulnerable without it.
I felt like if i was to continue on that route, things would have changed, but i couldn't keep that state of mind for long: i've been fighting with my partner all the summer through (saw me changed, thought i was going to dump him). The result was that i faced major stress while i was vulnerable and defenceless so that i had second bout of depression the following Autumn. When i was major depressed, cognitive thinking didn't help me at all. The life-saver was Tofranil which dragged me out of that horrible state of mind.
I know i'm going to sound too proud, but since you mentioned intelligence as a counterproductive factor, i feel justified talking about that also.
I'm not trying to boast myself, sorry if it's going to sound like that : hope you're not going to hate me now....
I swear it's the bare truth: my intelligence kind of prevented me from healing/getting cured.
The bad thing about depression is that the more intelligent you are, the least you're susceptible of getting cured by talk-therapies; this is my personal opinion so far.
I think most of us on this board have the same problem.
I've scored a high IQ also and i often had problems with all kind of therapies: it was like i was seeing trough the underlying basic theories, so that everything got unfolded and i felt like i was being mocked (difficult to explain i hope you know what i mean).
Back in 1990 i took Rorschach psychological testing that confirmed my "resistence" to therapies due to my intelligence. Please, don't think i'm boasting myself a genius, i wish i wasn't intelligent because i'm sure i'd been cured by now.
There's a positive thing about being intelligent though: it's creative-self-therapy: it's about finding a personal way out of the labyrinth with your creative intelligence, a tailored solution for you only.
I've been experiencing that, but again, i got scared as hell. I guess it was because i wasn't prepared.
If you pardon me the weird analogy, it was like building the roof without laying the foundations.
The foundations are social life, work, hobbies, sex and so on. I realize it's very hard but my personal opinion it's the first thing to do as soon as one gest better enough to do things.It sounds obvious, but it works.
I'm aware it's such an effort, but i think it's the first line of the agenda, top of the list thing.
(Of course you can't do that if you're too much depressed, you should be thinking about finding the right med then).
Posted by JennyR on June 18, 2001, at 17:13:03
In reply to Re: Can one think their way out of major depressio, posted by Anna Laura on June 11, 2001, at 2:41:17
I responded to part of your answer to Glenn, but somehow, it disappeared or never really "took." So here it is again.
Anyway, the part about being intelligent making it hard for "talk therapy" to work because you can see through the theories- I don't agree with that and would like to tell you why.
I thought that at one time, but it has not been the case at all.
I, too, am not trying to brag, only make a point. As a kid they skipped me from 3rd to 5th grade because of an 11th grade reading level and a 9th grade math level. Most endeavors have come easily to me. I have a graduate degree, was always an A student, etc. So I think statistically, I'd be considered a rather intelligent person. And particularly with degrees in the field, I certainly know the theories. Here's my point - it's the relationship that matters in therapy. I have a wonderful warm therapist who I've been able to make a strong connection with, and that's what makes it work. When you feel heard like never before, understood like never before, empathized with out of real warmth, that's what makes for a really successful therapy experience. It's not about intelligence or lack of it, it's about emotional connection. I think intelligence has helped because it allows one to reach insights, by putting different fragments together, seeing connections between things, that someone not too swift would have a harder time doing. I don't see intelligence or knowledge of theories as a hindrance at all. I think you either really click with a particular therapist, or you don't. Maybe you haven't found the right one.
I think medications can be important, it is for me, and what you say about your own creativity and building the right foundation too, but I also think therapy is the best gift I ever gave myself.
>
>
> Hi Glenn, Hi All,
>
> This is my first post on Social Babble (i've been posting on Psycho Babble only).
> First, my usual premise: english it's not my language, i'm posting from Europe, so pardon me if i make mistakes.
>
> Glenn,
>
>
> I'm really sorry you've been suffering so much .I feel lucky compared to you: at least i tasted life until i was 21 years old (i'm 32 right now).
> I think changing cognitive patterns plays a role, a big role for someone, a little one for others.
> For some of depressed people it's really the key to overcome the disease.
> I remember i read on The Becks' book on Cognitive Therapy about a woman who has been suffering from major depression for a looong time (throughout her adult life) who got cured with cognitive therapy (basically it's about thinking yourself out of depression, changing old thinking habits and so on).
> But some of us are not responding to that. I think that the solutions/possibilities are unlimited and countless, every one of us has to find a personal solution that fits his/her state of mind i guess. As far as i am concerned, it works only when i'm mildly depressed.
> Last Summer i succeeded in thinking myself out of depression and took a huge "cognitive jump".
> How i managed to do that it's really too long to tell. Well, i was still depressed but it was like my "mental visual " grew wider and wider, do you know what i mean? It was like having been living inside a small cell/box and coming out in the huge wide world all of a sudden. It was shocking 'cause i wasn't prepared for the experience. I felt like all of my skin was peeled off, ultra-sensitive and scared as hell. Thought i was getting crazy: my basic, obsessive thought was: "if i can get myself out of depression i can go crazy as well".
> Depression was like a kind a heavy but somehow comfortable blanket i've been wearing for so long that i felt like i was naked and vulnerable without it.
> I felt like if i was to continue on that route, things would have changed, but i couldn't keep that state of mind for long: i've been fighting with my partner all the summer through (saw me changed, thought i was going to dump him). The result was that i faced major stress while i was vulnerable and defenceless so that i had second bout of depression the following Autumn. When i was major depressed, cognitive thinking didn't help me at all. The life-saver was Tofranil which dragged me out of that horrible state of mind.
> I know i'm going to sound too proud, but since you mentioned intelligence as a counterproductive factor, i feel justified talking about that also.
> I'm not trying to boast myself, sorry if it's going to sound like that : hope you're not going to hate me now....
> I swear it's the bare truth: my intelligence kind of prevented me from healing/getting cured.
> The bad thing about depression is that the more intelligent you are, the least you're susceptible of getting cured by talk-therapies; this is my personal opinion so far.
> I think most of us on this board have the same problem.
> I've scored a high IQ also and i often had problems with all kind of therapies: it was like i was seeing trough the underlying basic theories, so that everything got unfolded and i felt like i was being mocked (difficult to explain i hope you know what i mean).
> Back in 1990 i took Rorschach psychological testing that confirmed my "resistence" to therapies due to my intelligence. Please, don't think i'm boasting myself a genius, i wish i wasn't intelligent because i'm sure i'd been cured by now.
> There's a positive thing about being intelligent though: it's creative-self-therapy: it's about finding a personal way out of the labyrinth with your creative intelligence, a tailored solution for you only.
> I've been experiencing that, but again, i got scared as hell. I guess it was because i wasn't prepared.
> If you pardon me the weird analogy, it was like building the roof without laying the foundations.
> The foundations are social life, work, hobbies, sex and so on. I realize it's very hard but my personal opinion it's the first thing to do as soon as one gest better enough to do things.It sounds obvious, but it works.
> I'm aware it's such an effort, but i think it's the first line of the agenda, top of the list thing.
> (Of course you can't do that if you're too much depressed, you should be thinking about finding the right med then).
>
>
Posted by robinibor on June 19, 2001, at 9:15:25
In reply to Anna Laura -Intelligence and therapy resistant, posted by JennyR on June 18, 2001, at 17:13:03
True, true. The relationship you have with your therapist is the best predictor of outcome. In a study of effectiveness of different talk therapies, combination, medication alone, or placebo, what made the difference was the relationship with the therapist by the 4th session--even if the therapist only prescribed medication.
That says to me that shopping around for a good therapist fit is as important as finding the right medication.
> I responded to part of your answer to Glenn, but somehow, it disappeared or never really "took." So here it is again.
> Anyway, the part about being intelligent making it hard for "talk therapy" to work because you can see through the theories- I don't agree with that and would like to tell you why.
> I thought that at one time, but it has not been the case at all.Here's my point - it's the relationship that matters in therapy. I have a wonderful warm therapist who I've been able to make a strong connection with, and that's what makes it work. When you feel heard like never before, understood like never before, empathized with out of real warmth, that's what makes for a really successful therapy experience. It's not about intelligence or lack of it, it's about emotional connection. I think intelligence has helped because it allows one to reach insights, by putting different fragments together, seeing connections between things, that someone not too swift would have a harder time doing. I don't see intelligence or knowledge of theories as a hindrance at all. I think you either really click with a particular therapist, or you don't. Maybe you haven't found the right one.
> I think medications can be important, it is for me, and what you say about your own creativity and building the right foundation too, but I also think therapy is the best gift I ever gave myself.
Posted by Anna Laura on June 22, 2001, at 3:29:31
In reply to Anna Laura -Intelligence and therapy resistant, posted by JennyR on June 18, 2001, at 17:13:03
> I responded to part of your answer to Glenn, but somehow, it disappeared or never really "took." So here it is again.
> Anyway, the part about being intelligent making it hard for "talk therapy" to work because you can see through the theories- I don't agree with that and would like to tell you why.
> I thought that at one time, but it has not been the case at all.
> I, too, am not trying to brag, only make a point. As a kid they skipped me from 3rd to 5th grade because of an 11th grade reading level and a 9th grade math level. Most endeavors have come easily to me. I have a graduate degree, was always an A student, etc. So I think statistically, I'd be considered a rather intelligent person. And particularly with degrees in the field, I certainly know the theories. Here's my point - it's the relationship that matters in therapy. I have a wonderful warm therapist who I've been able to make a strong connection with, and that's what makes it work. When you feel heard like never before, understood like never before, empathized with out of real warmth, that's what makes for a really successful therapy experience. It's not about intelligence or lack of it, it's about emotional connection. I think intelligence has helped because it allows one to reach insights, by putting different fragments together, seeing connections between things, that someone not too swift would have a harder time doing. I don't see intelligence or knowledge of theories as a hindrance at all. I think you either really click with a particular therapist, or you don't. Maybe you haven't found the right one.
> I think medications can be important, it is for me, and what you say about your own creativity and building the right foundation too, but I also think therapy is the best gift I ever gave myself.
> >
> >
> > Hi Glenn, Hi All,
> >
> > This is my first post on Social Babble (i've been posting on Psycho Babble only).
> > First, my usual premise: english it's not my language, i'm posting from Europe, so pardon me if i make mistakes.
> >
> > Glenn,
> >
> >
> > I'm really sorry you've been suffering so much .I feel lucky compared to you: at least i tasted life until i was 21 years old (i'm 32 right now).
> > I think changing cognitive patterns plays a role, a big role for someone, a little one for others.
> > For some of depressed people it's really the key to overcome the disease.
> > I remember i read on The Becks' book on Cognitive Therapy about a woman who has been suffering from major depression for a looong time (throughout her adult life) who got cured with cognitive therapy (basically it's about thinking yourself out of depression, changing old thinking habits and so on).
> > But some of us are not responding to that. I think that the solutions/possibilities are unlimited and countless, every one of us has to find a personal solution that fits his/her state of mind i guess. As far as i am concerned, it works only when i'm mildly depressed.
> > Last Summer i succeeded in thinking myself out of depression and took a huge "cognitive jump".
> > How i managed to do that it's really too long to tell. Well, i was still depressed but it was like my "mental visual " grew wider and wider, do you know what i mean? It was like having been living inside a small cell/box and coming out in the huge wide world all of a sudden. It was shocking 'cause i wasn't prepared for the experience. I felt like all of my skin was peeled off, ultra-sensitive and scared as hell. Thought i was getting crazy: my basic, obsessive thought was: "if i can get myself out of depression i can go crazy as well".
> > Depression was like a kind a heavy but somehow comfortable blanket i've been wearing for so long that i felt like i was naked and vulnerable without it.
> > I felt like if i was to continue on that route, things would have changed, but i couldn't keep that state of mind for long: i've been fighting with my partner all the summer through (saw me changed, thought i was going to dump him). The result was that i faced major stress while i was vulnerable and defenceless so that i had second bout of depression the following Autumn. When i was major depressed, cognitive thinking didn't help me at all. The life-saver was Tofranil which dragged me out of that horrible state of mind.
> > I know i'm going to sound too proud, but since you mentioned intelligence as a counterproductive factor, i feel justified talking about that also.
> > I'm not trying to boast myself, sorry if it's going to sound like that : hope you're not going to hate me now....
> > I swear it's the bare truth: my intelligence kind of prevented me from healing/getting cured.
> > The bad thing about depression is that the more intelligent you are, the least you're susceptible of getting cured by talk-therapies; this is my personal opinion so far.
> > I think most of us on this board have the same problem.
> > I've scored a high IQ also and i often had problems with all kind of therapies: it was like i was seeing trough the underlying basic theories, so that everything got unfolded and i felt like i was being mocked (difficult to explain i hope you know what i mean).
> > Back in 1990 i took Rorschach psychological testing that confirmed my "resistence" to therapies due to my intelligence. Please, don't think i'm boasting myself a genius, i wish i wasn't intelligent because i'm sure i'd been cured by now.
> > There's a positive thing about being intelligent though: it's creative-self-therapy: it's about finding a personal way out of the labyrinth with your creative intelligence, a tailored solution for you only.
> > I've been experiencing that, but again, i got scared as hell. I guess it was because i wasn't prepared.
> > If you pardon me the weird analogy, it was like building the roof without laying the foundations.
> > The foundations are social life, work, hobbies, sex and so on. I realize it's very hard but my personal opinion it's the first thing to do as soon as one gest better enough to do things.It sounds obvious, but it works.
> > I'm aware it's such an effort, but i think it's the first line of the agenda, top of the list thing.
> > (Of course you can't do that if you're too much depressed, you should be thinking about finding the right med then).
> >
> >Hi Jerry
A warm and caring pdoc saved my life years back (1993) while i was psychotic and driving totally insane. I believe that the emotional factor within a therapeutic relationship is essential.
In my previous mail i just wanted to pin-point the counterproductive factors of being intelligent, since Glenn brought up the issue of being intelligent and depression resistant. I'm aware there are positive sides of the issue also.
I know it's going to sound weird but another reason for me answering that way (being somehow "excessive") is that i somehow need to underline certain aspects of an issue in order to assimilate it. I.E. : when i was a child learning a new word i always reported it in my talks over and over again in order assimilate it.
I'm currently doing the same thing; that's why some of my mails sound so different in perspective : it's like i need to jump from a view-point to another in order to "absorb" them. It might bean extravagant way of "learning", (going from one extreme to another) but this how my character got molded i guess. I believe it might be a symptom of an unstable character, but i'm content with it.
Anna Laura
This is the end of the thread.
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