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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DarkWind on April 15, 2001, at 1:40:27
this is a question about suicide. i'm not trying to encourage it, i'm not condoning it, i'm just wondering why it's viewed as being so wrong? perhaps being able to answer this might give some of you who are contemplating the idea an affirmation.
my reason for asking this is that i thought about a few things and i couldn't come up with answers. first off, we all die someday anyway. when we die, the people around us are going to be upset - it won't matter how we die, or when, they will still be upset. i've heard the whole idea of how suicide is offensive to various gods in various religions - but is fear a reason to live? depression sucks, it has made my life suck - i want off of this ride, i think it's broken and i don't know how to fix it.
i suppose that hope is a good reason to hang around - the hope that things will improve somehow, sometime. the nasty problem of it is that hope is one of the things i seem to have a short supply of these days. i think that honor might be the one thing that holds me here - suicide is, after all, a way of running away from problems, and i don't like running away. the problem with this is that i think my honor is severely tarnished already, just from the way i've been the past few years.
so if any of you care to offer an answer to my question, go for it - we might all learn something valuable from what you have to offer here.
Posted by Sulpicia on April 15, 2001, at 22:34:50
In reply to a question for anyone to answer, posted by DarkWind on April 15, 2001, at 1:40:27
> first off, we all die someday anyway. when we die, the people around us are going to be upset - it won't matter how we die, or when, they will still be upset.
Hi --
Why is suicide wrong? No simple questions on this board.
Your premise above is incorrect IMHO.
Yes we all die, and while the death of a loved one is rarely
a cause for celebration, all deaths are not equally upsetting.
My father-in-law died at age 97. He had no quality of life left
and no possibility of regaining it. I was sad that he died -- I
missed him, but I was not upset at his death.
So too my parents, both of whom died of cancer. I was heart-broken
that they were stricken but I was not upset when they died. Cancer had
destroyed them and death was a relief.That said, when my friend's father killed himself, I was extremely upset.
Not only for the horrible issues it created for his immediate family, but
also because I had personally experienced severe depression but had recovered
with treatment. Of course this is subjective sophism -- "I got better so you can
too" is hardly a rational argument.I cannot *prove* it but I do *know* that you cannot decide about suicide if you're
depressed. Ironic for sure but your judgment is off.
When my mom's docs decided to offer her the option of discontinuing treatment,
they made a big point of explaining that they were ordering several consult visits
with a pdoc to make sure she wasn't suffering from depression -- they were completely
unwilling to offer to discontinue treatment unless she was able to make a rational
decision. So now I've drawn the seemingly ridiculous conclusion that you can only make
a rational decision about suicide when you're not depressed -- and presumably uninterested
in it.
Right or wrong is a judgment you have to make for yourself; if you're depressed you're
incapable of making the judgment.
Now that logic and sophistry have gotten us to aporeia, what have you tried for your
depression??
Posted by DarkWind on April 16, 2001, at 10:25:32
In reply to Re: a question for anyone to answer, posted by Sulpicia on April 15, 2001, at 22:34:50
first, in response to your comment on my premise, i'm not sure that i said others around us would be "equally" upset regardless of how we go. i've been around enough death to understand that reactions to each one are different. the point i was trying to make was simply that if we go, it doesn't matter how we go, people around us will still be upset.
i can't say that i "understand" your reaction to your friend's father committing suicide - your reaction is your own, and to truly understand it i would have to be inside your head. i will say that in the past, i've not looked upon suicide with a great deal of respect - as i mentioned in my last message, i feel that it's running and i don't like running. that's one of the thoughts i had when someone i knew took his life: "you ran when you should have stood and fought." it was easy for me to say that then - i wasn't going through what i'm going through now - but that thought has kept me alive through this because i'm still fighting. it's just that, after you fight something for a while and see no end in sight, you start wondering what the point in fighting is - that's where i'm at right now. i'm fighting and i really don't even remember why, it just seems the thing to do.
to answer your question about what i'm doing to fight this, i really don't know that i'm doing much. i've been seeing a psychologist and internist for about nine months now. i just recently brought a psychiatrist on board. i've been on a few medications - i'm on 300mg effexor xr right now. i'm forcing myself to go to school and seem to be having some success in that regard; but i really don't feel anything from it. i understand what you said about not making decisions while depressed - i've heard this before and one of the first things that i lost through this was my confidence in my own judgment. in some ways, i feel like i'm on auto-pilot...the real "me" skipped off somewhere a few years ago, left a "to-do" list and so i'm trying to get a few things done on that list.
thank you for responding to my post. i'm sorry for the things you've gone through, and happy to know that you actually made it through the depression. sophism - was this the rise or downfall of humanity? after all, they say that wisdom is sorrow and ignorance is bliss....
Posted by Ted on April 16, 2001, at 12:03:39
In reply to a question for anyone to answer, posted by DarkWind on April 15, 2001, at 1:40:27
I feel the circumstances are important. If someone is in constant pain or is depressed over a terminal illness for which death is eminent, then I feel suicide is warranted if desired. (I support Jack Kevorkian 100%). However, if the person has typical depression which is often treatable, then I think the correct course of action is to treat their depression, not allow them to kill themselves.
Ted
PS: I used to think that is someone wanted to kill themself, then let them, maybe even encourage it, in order not to deplete society's resources. Since I was in that position and saved through hospitalization and meds, I now feel totally different.
> this is a question about suicide. i'm not trying to encourage it, i'm not condoning it, i'm just wondering why it's viewed as being so wrong? perhaps being able to answer this might give some of you who are contemplating the idea an affirmation.
Posted by stjames on April 16, 2001, at 13:55:21
In reply to a question for anyone to answer, posted by DarkWind on April 15, 2001, at 1:40:27
> this is a question about suicide. i'm not trying to encourage it, i'm not condoning it, i'm just wondering why it's viewed as being so wrong? perhaps being able to answer this might give some of you who are contemplating the idea an affirmation.
>James here....
There are sucessful treatments for mental illness
so there is no reason to kill oneself just because you have not found a treatment that works.
Depression means people do not reason with a clear mind and make correct choices.James
Posted by Marie1 on April 16, 2001, at 20:18:03
In reply to Re: a question for anyone to answer, posted by stjames on April 16, 2001, at 13:55:21
My brother, at the tender age of 32, killed himself in 1997. He left a journal in his computer that left no doubt as to his state of mind or his determination to end the pain he felt everyday of his life. ALL of his family and friends were clueless. I, in particular, felt guilty because having been suffering depression for years, I thought I should have recognized that part of him. (Anyone who questions the genetic components of depression need only glance at my family tree!)
Anyway, my point here is that while my brother was, presumably, not in his "right mind" when he did the deed, he was in his "right mind" to carry on going to work everyday (as an engineer for a Fortune 500 company) and fool everyone into thinking he was as mentally balanced as anyone else. Suicide was his choice; he left his affairs in order and planned it to the last detail. After a lot of soul searching, I think he did the right thing for himself - not for me, or his other family, or his friends, but for himself. Yes, I'm sorry we lost him, but judging from the amount of pain he must have in, most of all I'm glad his suffering is ended.
Posted by willow on April 16, 2001, at 20:44:59
In reply to Re: a question for anyone to answer, posted by Marie1 on April 16, 2001, at 20:18:03
Regarding the issue of it being an easy way, I don't know if this is correct or the whole issue. I believe that humans need meaning in their lives, dreams, something to aspire for, etc. Without these suicide seems like a viable option at the moment for some.
Historically some cultures have even seen it as honourable or expected. What about those people who participate in extremely dangerous sports? Perhaps they are suicidal or have found the thing that gives them the high they require to keep on living?
Whispering Willow
Posted by Cecilia on April 17, 2001, at 1:40:35
In reply to Re: a question for anyone to answer, posted by stjames on April 16, 2001, at 13:55:21
> > this is a question about suicide. i'm not trying to encourage it, i'm not condoning it, i'm just wondering why it's viewed as being so wrong? perhaps being able to answer this might give some of you who are contemplating the idea an affirmation.
> >
>
> James here....
>
> There are sucessful treatments for mental illness
> so there is no reason to kill oneself just because you have not found a treatment that works.
> Depression means people do not reason with a clear mind and make correct choices.
>
> JamesIf these treatments are so successful how come so many people are writing into this board who have tried virtually everything and are still depressed? Granted, there is always the possibility for everyone that something new that will work will be invented, but I think everyone has the right to decide for themselves how much more pain they can endure (physical or mental). With the exception, in my opinion, if they have dependent children-I think, once you bring a child into the world, you have a moral obligation not to kill yourself until that child is grown.
Posted by Gracie2 on April 17, 2001, at 17:23:49
In reply to Re: a question for anyone to answer, posted by Cecilia on April 17, 2001, at 1:40:35
I just finished reading a book called "Talking to Heaven" by James Van Praagh, and thought you might be interested in what he has to say about suicides. The author is a famous medium who can communicate with the spirits of the dead. Reportedly he has been tested in every possible way and is acknowledged to be an authentic medium. He says, "When a person kills himself, one of the first things he realizes is that he is not dead...the mortal personality dies, but not the immortal soul. The soul remains stuck between the physical world and the spiritual world - alive
but unable to communicate with loved ones or anyone else. The soul feels guilt, pain, and anguish for a life cut short...he also senses the grief and anger of those he left behind. The most unfortunate circumstance is that he finds himself in a limbo state. He is not able to go to the heaven worlds, nor is he able to return to the physical world. He is stuck in a "no-man's-land" with the constant memory of his horrific act. He sees his death over and over again...he is trapped...the suicide act becomes an endless loop, and it can be pretty gruesome."
Well, what a nightmare! Instead of escape or rest, the soul is doomed to repeatedly relive the death experience. Of course, you may not believe in mediums. I watch a show called "Crossing Over" (on the sci-fi channel) where a medium named John Edwards communicates with spirits associated with audience members, and it's pretty convincing. So what IF this James Van Praagh is correct? That's a good reason not to commit suicide right there, to try and stick it out.
-Gracie
Posted by Cam W. on April 17, 2001, at 18:58:01
In reply to Re: a question for anyone to answer, posted by Gracie2 on April 17, 2001, at 17:23:49
Gracie - If this James Van Praagh had "proved" he was an authentic medium he would have taken James Randi's million dollar prize for any evidence of true psychic phenomena.
Harry Houdini proved years ago how psychics worked (cold readings, accomplices, etc) and had outed the best of his day. Today James Randi, Penn & Teller, Martin Gardiner, Paul Kurtz, Joe Nichols, et al, have shown the tricks of every one of today's psychics.
Sorry, but psychic phenomena have never held up under strict scientific scrutiny. This is not to say that scientists have not been fooled in the past, but even these events have been shown to be nothing more than parlor tricks.
- Cam
Posted by Marie1 on April 17, 2001, at 19:05:19
In reply to Re: a question for anyone to answer, posted by Gracie2 on April 17, 2001, at 17:23:49
With all due respect, I simply can't believe this medium's theory re: suicide. People who choose death over life (IMO) due so because they can't stand the constant unremitting psychic pain they feel. What sort of "higher power" would deny these souls the opportunity of heaven (or hell, I guess) after first having f*cked them over in life by giving them this disease? I wonder if this theory extends to people who committ "passive" suicide i.e., dying from lung cancer due to a lifetime of inhaling cigarettes? Or cirrhosis brought about by heavy drinking? Or someone whose anorexia causes them to starve to death? Where do you think this medium would draw the line? Personally I think this theory is no more than another urban legend that exacerbates the stigma already placed on people with mental illness.
Posted by Gracie2 on April 17, 2001, at 20:24:43
In reply to Re: a question for anyone to answer - Gracie2, posted by Marie1 on April 17, 2001, at 19:05:19
Not to backpedal, but I'm not 100% convinced myself that an authentic medium exists, although I try to keep an open mind. Maybe that means I'm gullible. Having lost someone very close to me, I am anxious to believe in life after death and I do a lot of reading on the subject.
I can't insist that Mr. Van Praagh is correct...all I can say is, what if he IS right?
It was just, you know, food for thought. If you're contemplating suicide, you should consider all the angles.
-Gracie
Posted by mikes on April 18, 2001, at 16:34:58
In reply to a question for anyone to answer, posted by DarkWind on April 15, 2001, at 1:40:27
Darkwind- You are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with suicide. The time at which someone dies is irrelevant. It will happen eventually, and once it does it is final.
To find out why it is wrong you must look to evolutionary psychology. If someone is resistant to committing suicide they will be less likely to die before they are able to reproduce. It's that simple.
However, I urge you not to commit suicide. I will never, ever commit suicide. That is because of my two experiences with ecstasy. I decided while on ecstasy that I should never kill myself. That thought was hard-wired into my brain on one of those nights. I think it's because those four hours were worth every single grating, hellish hour that has been my life. Every last minute.
Try some more antidepressants before you do anything. They aren't working for me so far, but I've only tried two.
And if you still do decide to kill yourself, go on a drug binge first. Try ecstasy, GHB, crack cocaine, heroin, and anything else you might enjoy. It will be worth it, trust me. Especially GHB, sometimes it cures treatment resistant depression.
Posted by storm on April 18, 2001, at 18:08:16
In reply to Re: a question for anyone to answer darkwind, posted by mikes on April 18, 2001, at 16:34:58
I have one word for all of you-----GOD.
I've suffered with this illness every day, every minute for the last 14 years of my life (I'm 19). I only want to know what it feels like to lose all this pain. but through every second I've struggled also to know God. find your hope, please, I promise it's still there.
Posted by julesvox on April 21, 2001, at 12:01:19
In reply to Re: a question for anyone to answer darkwind, posted by storm on April 18, 2001, at 18:08:16
others have said it better than i can, but for me it's not god but having gradually come to a place where i believe we're here to sit with whatever unfolds and fight like hell when we need to. sometimes fighting like hell is just staying alive when you want to die because pain is intolerable. and trying not to hate the part of you (i do believe it is a part) who wants to die--she has every reason to want to. she's really angry.
i notice now how feeling suicidal is such a reflex. i recently got some very validating & exciting news about my writing--got nominated for a big fellowship--and one of my 1st reactions was 'well, i'd better kill myself' bcs the feelings were so overwhelming. how...understandable, really.
julesvox
Posted by storm on April 22, 2001, at 11:43:47
In reply to Re: a question for anyone to answer darkwind, posted by julesvox on April 21, 2001, at 12:01:19
I understand everything you're saying. & I didn't mean to sound too forward or anything. I guess it's just that I needed God to get to that certain point; I realize some people don't. I do know what it's like to fight, and to feel like you can't anymore. and I definitely know what it's like to be so extremely overwhelmed with stuff that it messes you up. I've kinda just gone through that too, dating someone who loves me. & I just can't understand why. you're all in my thoughts, love, Christy
> others have said it better than i can, but for me it's not god but having gradually come to a place where i believe we're here to sit with whatever unfolds and fight like hell when we need to. sometimes fighting like hell is just staying alive when you want to die because pain is intolerable. and trying not to hate the part of you (i do believe it is a part) who wants to die--she has every reason to want to. she's really angry.
>
> i notice now how feeling suicidal is such a reflex. i recently got some very validating & exciting news about my writing--got nominated for a big fellowship--and one of my 1st reactions was 'well, i'd better kill myself' bcs the feelings were so overwhelming. how...understandable, really.
>
> julesvox
Posted by julesvox on April 22, 2001, at 12:31:02
In reply to Re: a question for anyone to answer darkwind, posted by storm on April 22, 2001, at 11:43:47
> I understand everything you're saying. & I didn't mean to sound too forward or anything.
oh, i didn't have a problem with your bringing up god. i've been trying to find god myself and am glad you have that presence in your life. i was just saying what it's like for me...
best,
julesvox
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