![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dasypodidae on October 29, 2000, at 11:14:09
In reply to Tribal matters, posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 1:00:15
> (borrowed from: http://www.worldofpoetry.org/usop/faces13.htm)
>
> INVOCATION
>
> We are from the Halluca Nation
> We are the tribe that they can not see
> We live on an industrial reservation
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> We have been called the Indian
> We have been called Native American
>
> We have been called Hostile
> We have been called Pagan
> We have been called Militant
> We have been called everything but who we are
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> The human beings
> They can not see us, but we can see them
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> Our D.N.A. is of earth and sky
> Our D.N.A. is of the past and the future
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> We are the evolution
> The continuation
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
>
>
> John Trudell
>
> http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html
>
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 12:35:54
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? » shar, posted by Dasypodidae on October 29, 2000, at 10:19:39
Wow, that is way more analysis of "tribe" than I am interested in. PB/PSB feels like a tribe, my tribe.
I can say that my growing up made me a survivor: extremely adaptable, and able to make acquaintances pretty quickly, and get along with others, but...I don't easily open my heart anymore. It was bruised too many times before I even understood what was happening.
I get very attached to my family (whether it be friends or blood relatives), my sister lives across the street, my mom across town. I finally have roots.
I'm glad you feel better today.
Shar
>
> Thanks for replying. I wonder if having a transient childhood makes most people form bonds more quickly. It seems like it might sometimes have the opposite effect. The idea that you see PB as a tribe is probably a big comfort to you. I don't mean that to be as condescending as it sounds. But isn't the tribe just your personal tribe and not all of PB? A tribe you can choose is less a tribe than a circle of "friends" which might overlap with other peoples' circles but is just your creation. A tribe would exist outside of the individual and not depend on the individual's choice. Or do you consider everyone that posts (or reads) PB one of the tribe whether you choose them or not?
>
> Does every tribe have its trickster? Or are there whole tribes of tricksters too? And who defines the roles? It seems like everything on the board (at least the majority ) is submitted by people who are not who they say. Besides the pseudonyms they post under, doesn't just writing move it into the realm of artifice if not fiction. I know the same thing happens in f2f communications but not to this extent I would think. And isn't fiction often closer to the truth than a selective recitation of the facts? And isn't labeling something fiction sometimes just a way to achieve maximum deniability while telling a truth?
>
> The world is a strange place for naive and trusting people.
>
> Thanks for the sympathy. I feel better this morning.
>
> Dasypodidae
>
> > I grew up as an Air Force brat. One time in my counseling group I said my life felt nomadic; which would be ok, if your tribe was ok (because you always moved with your tribe). My tribe was abusive.
> >
> > This (PB/PSB) is like a tribe to me.
> >
> > I hadn't really verbalized the notion of tribe here until Pullmarine talked about liking to trick us, and I thought every tribe has its trickster. And it does.
> >
> > How soon did it seem that way? .....I felt close to some people after being here 2-3 months.
> >
> > Do the feelings change with your personal ups and downs and with the changes in poster population? .....Not really to the first question, yes to the second if I don't know the poster(s).
> >
> > Do you think you would like the same people in person as you do on the board? .....I really don't know.
> >
> > I'm sick (bid for sympathy).
> > Sympathy: I'm very sorry to hear you are sick. I hope you feel better soon, because it's just awful to be sick.
> >
> > Shar
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Shar, Why do you call it a tribe? I've often wondered how the people who post here think of it in their minds. Some people have referred to it as a family. I think sometimes it seems like a group of people trapped in an elevator in a medical building or talking in a waiting room. Sometimes it seems like a group session and sometimes it seems like a school cafeteria with the new people waiting for someone to sit by them and with cliques forming and re-forming. Sometimes it seems like everyone is sitting in a cold basement in Chicago in the dark and waiting for the lights to come back on. And sometimes it just seems like writing on the wall and waiting. Does it really seem like a tribe to you or like a family? How soon did it seem that way? Do the feelings change with your personal ups and downs and with the changes in poster population? Do you think you would like the same people in person as you do on the board? I'm sick (bid for sympathy).
> > >
> > > Dasypodidae
> > >
> > > > Pull,
> > > >
> > > > I suppose every tribe has its trickster.
> > > >
> > > > Shar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I really enjoy misleading you guys into (at the very least) opening my posted prose and poetry. But I'll try to make an effort. Maybe.
> > > > > or maybe not.
> > > > >
> > > > > JOHN
> > > > >
> > > > > > If anybody is willing, I would really appreciate it if folks posting poetry/prose could indicate same in the subject of the e-mail. Like Poem: The Raven. or something. Or, putting the subject in quotes like "Breathing Underwater" or something.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since I can't order anyone around, and don't want to, this is only a request from one of the members of the tribe here. But I would be really appreciative.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Shar
Posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 12:41:47
In reply to Tribal matters, posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 1:08:00
In electronic text communication, correspondents more likely speak of tribes in terms of symbols learned from other text formats. The shamans and tricksters described in many electronic forums are more likely those that inhabit anthropology texts and Casteneda’s fiction.
In Invocation, Trudell speaks of tribes in terms of deoxyribonucleic acid. He chooses text that reflects his personal experience with the mutli-generational familial bonds, and bonds with places and with the elements of nature.
One writer said Trudell’s Invocation speaks of all people as now living on an industrial reservation. In “Tribal Voice” and in his other works, Trudell paints a picture of people isolated from their family. Trudell suggests a family that not only includes the direct DNA family, but also as the DNA fabric of a living eco-systems that cooperates with the people in a symbiotic relationship.
The term “tribe” is but a textual construct. Some card-carrying “tribal members” say the term is a symbolic marker of ideological reservation boundaries. From the outside looking in, “tribe” can mark a reservation inhabited by chiefs, shamans and tricksters. From inside the reservation, looking out, “tribe” marks the line beyond which people confuse the bonds of family and nature with fantasies of shamans and tricksters.
As the biographical sketch of Trudell (http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html) suggests, poetry for him was a form of therapy that salved the wounds of a costly civil war. The war was one in which he was regarded as incivil, yet he alleges that he and his family were treated in a most incivil manner because of his civic involvement. As a salve, written and spoken language can serve as a medium that sooths the pain of abiding within reservation boundaries. It might also serve to facilitate interaction beyond the reservation boundary.
The difference in “tribe” in the familial sense, and “tribe” in the sense of a band of refugees held together by a common need, might have implications for biological psychology. The familial tribe enjoys a more intact cognitive map. Disruptions of physical and social cognitive maps might cause the same patterns of hyperalertness, over-sensitivity, profound despair and attention deficits often associated with child abuse and neglect.
Perhaps this all suggests why some people question casual use of the word “tribe” to describe a loose-knit conversation among practical strangers, and at the same time why “tribe” seems such a fitting description. Perhaps we are all displaced tribal members living on an industrial reservation. Being a neighbor on the reservation does not, however, in the legal since, comprise tribal membership.
> INVOCATION
>
> We are from the Halluca Nation
> We are the tribe that they can not see
> We live on an industrial reservation
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> We have been called the Indian
> We have been called Native American
>
> We have been called Hostile
> We have been called Pagan
> We have been called Militant
> We have been called everything but who we are
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> The human beings
> They can not see us, but we can see them
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> Our D.N.A. is of earth and sky
> Our D.N.A. is of the past and the future
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
> We are the evolution
> The continuation
>
> We are the Halluca Nation
>
>
> John Trudell
>
> http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html
>
> poetry stolen from: http://www.worldofpoetry.org/usop/faces13.htm
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 12:57:27
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? and Shaman Bob?, posted by Dasypodidae on October 29, 2000, at 11:00:21
> I'm confused. Are you calling Dr Bob, Shaman Bob?
> Why?.................Because tribes have shamans, it was really sort of a joke. Dr. Bob is more of a ghost figure to me, usually. When I'm posting I don't think "What will Bob think about this" I am engrossed in the issue at hand.
>
> I'm not talking about surveillance, I'm talking about Newspeak and the Thought Police. I'm talking about the Therapeutic Culture in general. And I do think there are parallels here! I was thinking of redefining all pain and social injustice in terms of mental illness within the individual. Of a kind of spiritual revisionism where despair and longing are only chemistry. Where the outrage at social injustice is labeled mental illness, etc. etc.
............On first reading, I see things differently than you. Whatever you replace the current "Newspeak" etc. with, will become the new "Newspeak" etc. Maybe you are thinking at a macro level and I'm thinking at a micro level.>
> I really really don't think Dr Bob is peeping at me through his little picture square!
>
> What has AA got to do with anything? I don't even LIKE Bill W. It takes what it takes but that's just not what it takes for me ;o).............Pullmarine and you both made reference to 1984 (big brother), and I was commenting on how I regarded that. Big brother would relate to heavy monitoring of activity, what was said (content), how it can be used against one, etc. (at least as far as the book 1984 was concerned) and I was making the point that anybody can monitor what we say here, and we should not really have an expectation of confidentially, so it did not make sense to compare PB/PSB to Big Brother IMHO, or to compare Dr. Bob to Big Brother. I made the additional point that we shouldn't expect AA etc. to be confidential (the parallel would be talking about personal things).
>
> Dr Bob is not MY shaman. How can he be yours if you never even think about him? That's something to think about.
.........I hope my shaman explanation above answers this question.>
> I didn't mean to offend you............Not offended.
>
> Sorry if I upset you..........Not upset.
I didn't mean to. I haven't read 1984 in years. Maybe we remember it differently. Best wishes
..........Ditto to you on the best wishes.
>
> Dasypodidae
>
>
>
> Gee, see how jaded yet naive one can be. I never think of Dr. Bob when I'm posting. I never even thought he read all the posts. But he must read some because he does pop in now and then.
> >
> > It doesn't feel 1984 to me, because the only thing I have to do to post here is be civil, and I'm a big fan of civility. The disclaimer up top says that what you say could conceivably be used against you, and that is also true of all the A groups (AA, NA, etc.). The A groups are not protected communication, and posting on this board is public, and so not protected. In fact, anyone on this board has access to all the posts.
> >
> > Again, I may be naive, but why would Shaman Bob even care who is taking what? who has what condition, etc. And, worst case scenario, what would he hold against us that every reader here couldn't do the same?
> >
> > S
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 13:45:39
In reply to Tribe or band of refugees?, posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 12:41:47
> Perhaps this all suggests why some people question casual use of the word “tribe” to describe a loose-knit conversation among practical strangers, and at the same time why “tribe” seems such a fitting description.
Ken,
Just to be clear, my use of the word tribe is based on the idea of a group of people characterized by a common "ancestry" or customs. Ancestry in the PB/PSB sense, meaning not geneology, but some shared experiences that many of us have in common. (Funk and Wagnall helped me with defining this.)About as far away from a legalistic definition as one could get. Although, if my mom has done her geneology correctly, I am a card-carrying Native American tribe member. My use of trickster and shaman comes from what I've read, heard, seen, about Native American culture, the pow-wows I've attended, and from the course I took on "minority literature" in which the authors were Black, Chicano, Native American.
And, I didn't have in mind only native american tribes; but thoughts of tribal customs in African, and other tribes outside the US.
My usage is "if the word fits, use it." Not in the least juridical.
Shar
> In electronic text communication, correspondents more likely speak of tribes in terms of symbols learned from other text formats. The shamans and tricksters described in many electronic forums are more likely those that inhabit anthropology texts and Casteneda’s fiction.
>
> In Invocation, Trudell speaks of tribes in terms of deoxyribonucleic acid. He chooses text that reflects his personal experience with the mutli-generational familial bonds, and bonds with places and with the elements of nature.
>
> One writer said Trudell’s Invocation speaks of all people as now living on an industrial reservation. In “Tribal Voice” and in his other works, Trudell paints a picture of people isolated from their family. Trudell suggests a family that not only includes the direct DNA family, but also as the DNA fabric of a living eco-systems that cooperates with the people in a symbiotic relationship.
>
> The term “tribe” is but a textual construct. Some card-carrying “tribal members” say the term is a symbolic marker of ideological reservation boundaries. From the outside looking in, “tribe” can mark a reservation inhabited by chiefs, shamans and tricksters. From inside the reservation, looking out, “tribe” marks the line beyond which people confuse the bonds of family and nature with fantasies of shamans and tricksters.
>
> As the biographical sketch of Trudell (http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html) suggests, poetry for him was a form of therapy that salved the wounds of a costly civil war. The war was one in which he was regarded as incivil, yet he alleges that he and his family were treated in a most incivil manner because of his civic involvement. As a salve, written and spoken language can serve as a medium that sooths the pain of abiding within reservation boundaries. It might also serve to facilitate interaction beyond the reservation boundary.
>
> The difference in “tribe” in the familial sense, and “tribe” in the sense of a band of refugees held together by a common need, might have implications for biological psychology. The familial tribe enjoys a more intact cognitive map. Disruptions of physical and social cognitive maps might cause the same patterns of hyperalertness, over-sensitivity, profound despair and attention deficits often associated with child abuse and neglect.
>
> Perhaps this all suggests why some people question casual use of the word “tribe” to describe a loose-knit conversation among practical strangers, and at the same time why “tribe” seems such a fitting description. Perhaps we are all displaced tribal members living on an industrial reservation. Being a neighbor on the reservation does not, however, in the legal since, comprise tribal membership.
>
>
> > INVOCATION
> >
> > We are from the Halluca Nation
> > We are the tribe that they can not see
> > We live on an industrial reservation
> >
> > We are the Halluca Nation
> > We have been called the Indian
> > We have been called Native American
> >
> > We have been called Hostile
> > We have been called Pagan
> > We have been called Militant
> > We have been called everything but who we are
> >
> > We are the Halluca Nation
> > The human beings
> > They can not see us, but we can see them
> >
> > We are the Halluca Nation
> > Our D.N.A. is of earth and sky
> > Our D.N.A. is of the past and the future
> >
> > We are the Halluca Nation
> > We are the evolution
> > The continuation
> >
> > We are the Halluca Nation
> >
> >
> > John Trudell
> >
> > http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html
> >
> > poetry stolen from: http://www.worldofpoetry.org/usop/faces13.htm
Posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 14:20:01
In reply to Re: Tribe or band of refugees? » KenB, posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 13:45:39
>
> Ken,
> Just to be clear, my use of the word tribe is based on the idea of a group of people characterized by a common "ancestry" or customs. Ancestry in the PB/PSB sense, meaning not geneology, but some shared experiences that many of us have in common. (Funk and Wagnall helped me with defining this.)
----The point is well made, but there remains a much closer form of sharing than this forum will ever approach. The suggestion that electronic text communication is synonymous to DNA relationships might diminish, in some people's minds, the value of deeper “tribal” relationships. Some writers and speakers have referred to casual dismissal of deeper relationships as being culturally genocidal. Among some people, “tribe” suggests meanings that go far beyond Funk and Wagnall’s definition. Funk and Wagnall is a collection of English usages, and not so much of usages common among English speaking "ethnic" groups.
>
> About as far away from a legalistic definition as one could get. Although, if my mom has done her geneology correctly, I am a card-carrying Native American tribe member.----Card carrying Native American tribal members carry (or at least own) tribal ID cards. It is strictly a legal definition. Tribal membership criteria vary depending on the Indian Reorganization Act constitution adopted by a specific reservation government. If you are qualified, perhaps it would be enriching for you identify your tribal family and apply for membership. Of course, card-carrying membership does not define family ties. Familiarity with family members best defines family bonds.
>My use of trickster and shaman comes from what I've read, heard, seen, about Native American culture, the pow-wows I've attended, and from the course I took on "minority literature" in which the authors were Black, Chicano, Native American.
----Exactly. The oustider's view looking in, whether looking as a reader or as a guest at social events, is often different than the members’ view as seen living on the inside.
> And, I didn't have in mind only native american tribes; but thoughts of tribal customs in African, and other tribes outside the US.
>
> My usage is "if the word fits, use it." Not in the least juridical.
>----Indeed, "fit" is a personal and subjective standard, informed by an individual's experience and background. My experience with "shamans" and "tricksters" began in my southern white christian "tribe."
Sometimes the behaviors most offensive to some cultures might be considered benign and even be encouraged by others. The PsychoBabble archives offer ample evidence of such differences.
Kendall
>
>
> > In electronic text communication, correspondents more likely speak of tribes in terms of symbols learned from other text formats. The shamans and tricksters described in many electronic forums are more likely those that inhabit anthropology texts and Casteneda’s fiction.
> >
> > In Invocation, Trudell speaks of tribes in terms of deoxyribonucleic acid. He chooses text that reflects his personal experience with the mutli-generational familial bonds, and bonds with places and with the elements of nature.
> >
> > One writer said Trudell’s Invocation speaks of all people as now living on an industrial reservation. In “Tribal Voice” and in his other works, Trudell paints a picture of people isolated from their family. Trudell suggests a family that not only includes the direct DNA family, but also as the DNA fabric of a living eco-systems that cooperates with the people in a symbiotic relationship.
> >
> > The term “tribe” is but a textual construct. Some card-carrying “tribal members” say the term is a symbolic marker of ideological reservation boundaries. From the outside looking in, “tribe” can mark a reservation inhabited by chiefs, shamans and tricksters. From inside the reservation, looking out, “tribe” marks the line beyond which people confuse the bonds of family and nature with fantasies of shamans and tricksters.
> >
> > As the biographical sketch of Trudell (http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html) suggests, poetry for him was a form of therapy that salved the wounds of a costly civil war. The war was one in which he was regarded as incivil, yet he alleges that he and his family were treated in a most incivil manner because of his civic involvement. As a salve, written and spoken language can serve as a medium that sooths the pain of abiding within reservation boundaries. It might also serve to facilitate interaction beyond the reservation boundary.
> >
> > The difference in “tribe” in the familial sense, and “tribe” in the sense of a band of refugees held together by a common need, might have implications for biological psychology. The familial tribe enjoys a more intact cognitive map. Disruptions of physical and social cognitive maps might cause the same patterns of hyperalertness, over-sensitivity, profound despair and attention deficits often associated with child abuse and neglect.
> >
> > Perhaps this all suggests why some people question casual use of the word “tribe” to describe a loose-knit conversation among practical strangers, and at the same time why “tribe” seems such a fitting description. Perhaps we are all displaced tribal members living on an industrial reservation. Being a neighbor on the reservation does not, however, in the legal since, comprise tribal membership.
> >
> >
> > > INVOCATION
> > >
> > > We are from the Halluca Nation
> > > We are the tribe that they can not see
> > > We live on an industrial reservation
> > >
> > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > We have been called the Indian
> > > We have been called Native American
> > >
> > > We have been called Hostile
> > > We have been called Pagan
> > > We have been called Militant
> > > We have been called everything but who we are
> > >
> > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > The human beings
> > > They can not see us, but we can see them
> > >
> > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > Our D.N.A. is of earth and sky
> > > Our D.N.A. is of the past and the future
> > >
> > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > We are the evolution
> > > The continuation
> > >
> > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > >
> > >
> > > John Trudell
> > >
> > > http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html
> > >
> > > poetry stolen from: http://www.worldofpoetry.org/usop/faces13.htm
Posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 14:55:39
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? and Shaman Bob?, posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 10:04:24
> Again, I may be naive, but why would Shaman Bob even care who is taking what? who has what condition, etc.Because PB has great potential for research.
so we're all guiney pigs.JOHN
Posted by coral on October 29, 2000, at 15:02:45
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? and Shaman Bob?, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 14:55:39
No doubt this group would have loads of fun with a Freudian slip! :)
Posted by Greg on October 29, 2000, at 15:22:44
In reply to Re: Tribe or band of refugees? » shar, posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 14:20:01
Shar,
You and I should both by this time in our lives that no matter what we say or how we try to say it someone will disagree with it. I have been on both sides of this coin lately.
If it helps you to know this, I am honored to be a part of your "tribe".
Greg
Posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 15:47:23
In reply to Re: Tribe or band of refugees - Shar, posted by Greg on October 29, 2000, at 15:22:44
All,
Could we agree that it can be useful to consider the other side? Perhaps other perspectives are not mentioned solely to disagree with an opinion. New information might be offered to build on a statement so as assert a unique and genuine concern. Additional information might be offered to expand, rather than limit horizons.
While,
> > >"Disruptions of physical and social cognitive maps might cause the same patterns of hyperalertness, over-sensitivity, profound despair and attention deficits often associated with child abuse and neglect."...the flip side is that a symbolic means of "tribal" inclusion, such as electronic text communication, can sometimes serve to restore a sense of place that is important for stable cognitive functions.
If so, symbolic means of inclusion that serve some well might be inadequate for others. Discussion of the variable values can be constructive.
Kendall
>Shar,
>You and I should both by this time in our lives >that no matter what we say or how we try to say >it someone will disagree with it. I have been on >both sides of this coin lately.>If it helps you to know this, I am honored to be >a part of your "tribe".
>Greg
Posted by Dasypodidae on October 29, 2000, at 16:00:16
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? and Shaman Bob?, posted by coral on October 29, 2000, at 15:02:45
> No doubt this group would have loads of fun with a Freudian slip! :)
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 21:47:18
In reply to Re: Tribe or band of refugees? » shar, posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 14:20:01
Ken, let me stress and reiterate that the word tribe has more than one definition. One being yours, one being mine, and then all those dictionaries and reference manuals.
I am not, do not intend to, would not try to, and don't want to try to make a parallel between what is a tribe in my life and the precise, specific, legalistic definitions/customs/laws that come together to define a Native American tribe.
Enough said? I simply have my own opinion, cannot see how it impacts at all on the different definitions of tribe used by others, since I don't refer to those. God forbid that we are only allowed to use a word in it's strictest most legalistic form. In that case, I am sure the word refugee, as you use it, could have exactly your points made about it.
I am ready to drop this.
Shar>
> >
> > Ken,
> > Just to be clear, my use of the word tribe is based on the idea of a group of people characterized by a common "ancestry" or customs. Ancestry in the PB/PSB sense, meaning not geneology, but some shared experiences that many of us have in common. (Funk and Wagnall helped me with defining this.)
>
>
> ----The point is well made, but there remains a much closer form of sharing than this forum will ever approach. The suggestion that electronic text communication is synonymous to DNA relationships might diminish, in some people's minds, the value of deeper “tribal” relationships. Some writers and speakers have referred to casual dismissal of deeper relationships as being culturally genocidal. Among some people, “tribe” suggests meanings that go far beyond Funk and Wagnall’s definition. Funk and Wagnall is a collection of English usages, and not so much of usages common among English speaking "ethnic" groups.
>
>
> >
> > About as far away from a legalistic definition as one could get. Although, if my mom has done her geneology correctly, I am a card-carrying Native American tribe member.
>
> ----Card carrying Native American tribal members carry (or at least own) tribal ID cards. It is strictly a legal definition. Tribal membership criteria vary depending on the Indian Reorganization Act constitution adopted by a specific reservation government. If you are qualified, perhaps it would be enriching for you identify your tribal family and apply for membership. Of course, card-carrying membership does not define family ties. Familiarity with family members best defines family bonds.
>
> >My use of trickster and shaman comes from what I've read, heard, seen, about Native American culture, the pow-wows I've attended, and from the course I took on "minority literature" in which the authors were Black, Chicano, Native American.
>
> ----Exactly. The oustider's view looking in, whether looking as a reader or as a guest at social events, is often different than the members’ view as seen living on the inside.
>
>
> > And, I didn't have in mind only native american tribes; but thoughts of tribal customs in African, and other tribes outside the US.
> >
> > My usage is "if the word fits, use it." Not in the least juridical.
> >
>
> ----Indeed, "fit" is a personal and subjective standard, informed by an individual's experience and background. My experience with "shamans" and "tricksters" began in my southern white christian "tribe."
>
> Sometimes the behaviors most offensive to some cultures might be considered benign and even be encouraged by others. The PsychoBabble archives offer ample evidence of such differences.
>
> Kendall
> >
> >
> > > In electronic text communication, correspondents more likely speak of tribes in terms of symbols learned from other text formats. The shamans and tricksters described in many electronic forums are more likely those that inhabit anthropology texts and Casteneda’s fiction.
> > >
> > > In Invocation, Trudell speaks of tribes in terms of deoxyribonucleic acid. He chooses text that reflects his personal experience with the mutli-generational familial bonds, and bonds with places and with the elements of nature.
> > >
> > > One writer said Trudell’s Invocation speaks of all people as now living on an industrial reservation. In “Tribal Voice” and in his other works, Trudell paints a picture of people isolated from their family. Trudell suggests a family that not only includes the direct DNA family, but also as the DNA fabric of a living eco-systems that cooperates with the people in a symbiotic relationship.
> > >
> > > The term “tribe” is but a textual construct. Some card-carrying “tribal members” say the term is a symbolic marker of ideological reservation boundaries. From the outside looking in, “tribe” can mark a reservation inhabited by chiefs, shamans and tricksters. From inside the reservation, looking out, “tribe” marks the line beyond which people confuse the bonds of family and nature with fantasies of shamans and tricksters.
> > >
> > > As the biographical sketch of Trudell (http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html) suggests, poetry for him was a form of therapy that salved the wounds of a costly civil war. The war was one in which he was regarded as incivil, yet he alleges that he and his family were treated in a most incivil manner because of his civic involvement. As a salve, written and spoken language can serve as a medium that sooths the pain of abiding within reservation boundaries. It might also serve to facilitate interaction beyond the reservation boundary.
> > >
> > > The difference in “tribe” in the familial sense, and “tribe” in the sense of a band of refugees held together by a common need, might have implications for biological psychology. The familial tribe enjoys a more intact cognitive map. Disruptions of physical and social cognitive maps might cause the same patterns of hyperalertness, over-sensitivity, profound despair and attention deficits often associated with child abuse and neglect.
> > >
> > > Perhaps this all suggests why some people question casual use of the word “tribe” to describe a loose-knit conversation among practical strangers, and at the same time why “tribe” seems such a fitting description. Perhaps we are all displaced tribal members living on an industrial reservation. Being a neighbor on the reservation does not, however, in the legal since, comprise tribal membership.
> > >
> > >
> > > > INVOCATION
> > > >
> > > > We are from the Halluca Nation
> > > > We are the tribe that they can not see
> > > > We live on an industrial reservation
> > > >
> > > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > > We have been called the Indian
> > > > We have been called Native American
> > > >
> > > > We have been called Hostile
> > > > We have been called Pagan
> > > > We have been called Militant
> > > > We have been called everything but who we are
> > > >
> > > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > > The human beings
> > > > They can not see us, but we can see them
> > > >
> > > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > > Our D.N.A. is of earth and sky
> > > > Our D.N.A. is of the past and the future
> > > >
> > > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > > We are the evolution
> > > > The continuation
> > > >
> > > > We are the Halluca Nation
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John Trudell
> > > >
> > > > http://www.johntrudell.com/jt_bio.html
> > > >
> > > > poetry stolen from: http://www.worldofpoetry.org/usop/faces13.htm
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 21:51:32
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? and Shaman Bob?, posted by pullmarine on October 29, 2000, at 14:55:39
Pull,
it says right up top that he is allowed to make use of these posts. I figured research would be the most likely way.
Shar>
> > Again, I may be naive, but why would Shaman Bob even care who is taking what? who has what condition, etc.
>
> Because PB has great potential for research.
> so we're all guiney pigs.
>
> JOHN
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 22:28:53
In reply to Re: Tribe or band of refugees - Shar, posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 15:47:23
>Could we agree that it can be useful etc.
In theory, Ken, yes. However, reading your posts did not leave me with any sense that you were aiming at expansion vs. limitation, or building on a statement so to create a unique point of view.
You have a facility for writing with subtlety tinged with innocence, which can be effective, and positive or negative, I suppose, depending on how you want to put it to use and who your audience is.
Good luck.
Shar> All,
>
> to consider the other side? Perhaps other perspectives are not mentioned solely to disagree with an opinion. New information might be offered to build on a statement so as assert a unique and genuine concern. Additional information might be offered to expand, rather than limit horizons.
>
> While,
> > > >"Disruptions of physical and social cognitive maps might cause the same patterns of hyperalertness, over-sensitivity, profound despair and attention deficits often associated with child abuse and neglect."
>
> ...the flip side is that a symbolic means of "tribal" inclusion, such as electronic text communication, can sometimes serve to restore a sense of place that is important for stable cognitive functions.
>
> If so, symbolic means of inclusion that serve some well might be inadequate for others. Discussion of the variable values can be constructive.
>
> Kendall
>
>
> >Shar,
> >You and I should both by this time in our lives >that no matter what we say or how we try to say >it someone will disagree with it. I have been on >both sides of this coin lately.
>
> >If it helps you to know this, I am honored to be >a part of your "tribe".
>
> >Greg
Posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 22:41:40
In reply to Re: Tribe or band of refugees - Shar, posted by Greg on October 29, 2000, at 15:22:44
Yes, Greggor you are right.
But my personal perceptions of groups in my life...? I didn't think that was even worthy grist for the mill.
Thank you for your kind words.
How are you?
Shar
> Shar,
>
> You and I should both by this time in our lives that no matter what we say or how we try to say it someone will disagree with it. I have been on both sides of this coin lately.
>
> If it helps you to know this, I am honored to be a part of your "tribe".
>
> Greg
Posted by Rzip on October 29, 2000, at 23:43:54
In reply to Re: Is this a tribe?? and Shaman Bob?, posted by shar on October 29, 2000, at 10:04:24
> Gee, see how jaded yet naive one can be. I never think of Dr. Bob when I'm posting. I never even thought he read all the posts. But he must read some because he does pop in now and then.
I think of Dr. Bob ALL THE TIME! Ah! It is driving me crazy. You see, if one was to identify a concrete, distinctive psychotic problem with me...it would be my tendency to take real people into my internal world. In my mind, I kind of see Dr. Bob as my big brother, my friend, my commrade. I think of him a great deal (EVERY DAY).The reality is that I never met the guy. I just try to analyze him based on his website. But that is exactly how I form my intense relationships in my mind. It is safe, very safe to interact with Dr. Bob in my mind. I talk to him a great deal, every day--even through I never even heard him speak (What does his voice sound like?) In my mind, Dr. Bob is very witty and humorous. Just a delight to be with. Plus he is young and a psychiatrist! I love M.D.'s :-)
The bad thing is that when reality hits, I feel very worrisome and upset. I do not really know Dr. Bob :-( But it precisely because I do not know him that I am letting him becoming one of the personality/voices in my mind. It is just so confusing!!! Part of me, like when I am studying wants Dr.Bob and all the other personalities/voices to go away. But, then I would be left with nothing but an empty mind and feeling. I know, I know that I should make some real friends with real people. But bad things happen when I try to connect with students. I get too anxious and then I lash out at students. Then, they get terrified with me and run away.
But the real people that I have taken into my mind, I have control over them. Have them act as I please. I only take in good people, so my internal world is always very pleasant and nice to fantasize about. In my mind, Dr. Bob is very caring, like a Big brother toward me.
But for the sake of my mental health, I am willing to let the internal Dr. Bob go now. Actually, that is not true. I still want to hold on to him. But this is his website, so at least the interaction(s) is starting to occur in the real world. That's good, that's healthy (I hope). I do not know anymore. I just have to keep reminding myself that Dr. Bob is a real person, a real human being with ONE personality. Oh, I am so jealous of people with one coherent personality. Congruent is the world (Carl Rogers).
By the way, I love Carl Rogers and his Client-Centered therapy approach. I never experienced that kind of therapy, but I like the concept.
Am I getting better, or am I getting worse? I need opinions/feedbacks from you guys. I am welcome to all responses, however don't be intentionally mean, o.k. Be gentle. I can't help but think I am a sicko. But that is so negative. What I wrote is true, and that is the scary reality.
Talk to you later,
Rzip
Posted by KenB on October 30, 2000, at 3:55:28
In reply to Tribal matters, posted by KenB on October 29, 2000, at 1:08:00
In some recent thread on this board, a person explained that, after a few posts, replies as often respond to a collective idea as to the individual who started the message. Maybe that is a risk of tribal life.
> >You have a facility for writing with subtlety tinged with innocence, which can be effective, and positive or negative, I suppose, depending on how you want to put it to use and who your audience is.
My friends have cited countless nuances in my character and in my prose, but I don’t recall anyone suggesting a "tinge of innocence." The idea in my mind is that the audience included the person who asked if this were a tribe. Perhaps I erred in using the “add name of previous poster” feature offered at this site.
> I simply have my own opinion, cannot see how it impacts at all on the different definitions of tribe used by others, since I don't refer to those.
In this context, it seems to impact others because the discussion is posted in a forum available for public consumption. The question of whether this, or any internet discussion group is a "tribe" impacted me, in part, because of my exposure to other groups who claim tribal status. It seems I have listened to a very similar discussion among “Rainbow people,” who were questioning themselves over the propriety of claiming tribal status.
The poster with the armadillo handle can answer for their own intent, but mine was not to insinuate a faux pas on the level of adopting tribal names or images as sports mascots. That nationwide discussion, though, has expanded public willingness to more broadly consider the meaning of tribal references when publicly using images that refer to tribal culture. It seems worth my while to spend a few moments reflecting on, and comparing DNA relationships with electronic text relationships.
For what it's worth, Governor Jesse Ventura, leader of a state populated by numerous tribes, would likely go to the mat to defend the original use of the term “tribe” in this page. But the governor did not seem to understand how his statements about tribal sovereignty affected others when he publicly asked in Washington, D.C. whether the Mils Lac Chippewa wanted to be their own nation or part of the United States. Members of tribes in Minnesota, members of religious groups, and several Minneapolis columnists felt otherwise. The governor's “what are they” comment generated much more public reaction than the ethnic Irish joke he told on a late night talk show. Ventura refused to meet face to face with the people he was talking about to discuss the matter because he refuses to meet with "special interest groups." The U.S. Supreme Court disagreed with Gov. Ventura's position, though, and recognized the tribes' sovereignty in the instance that inspired his comment.
> > God forbid that we are only allowed to use a word in it's strictest most legalistic form. In that case, I am sure the word refugee, as you use it, could have exactly your points made about it.
The appearance of the term tribe indicated to me an interest in tribal psychology.
It seems true that a wet, hungry, shivering refugee seeking a patch of high ground in flooded Bangladesh might say we don't know the first thing about what it is to be a refugee. My experience has included more discussion about "what is a tribe" with tribal members than about "what is a refugee" with recently displaced refugees. My experience informs my response. My interest here was more to consider the impact, in terms of biological psychology, of being a displaced person, whether from Bangladesh, Turtle Island or Silicon Valley. Hence, my suggestion that:
> >The difference in “tribe” in the familial sense, and “tribe” in the sense of a band of refugees held together by a common need, might have implications for biological psychology. The familial tribe enjoys a more intact cognitive map. Disruptions of physical and social cognitive maps might cause the same patterns of hyperalertness, over-sensitivity, profound despair and attention deficits often associated with child abuse and neglect.
> > > I am ready to drop this.
> SharBy all means, do. My sensitivity to the question of "what is a tribe" is likely to endure much longer, perhaps because of my life experience, and perhaps because that experience has left me with a warm regard for the closeness and connectivity that inhabits tribal communities. Reading on the Internet about those communities, or seeing the faces and words of ”card-carrying” tribal friends and their wider community of allies on the Internet is like getting a greeting card from Grandmother, but it is hardly like a visit to Grandmothers' house. My hope was to relate that difference. If that offers little meaning for some people, no offense is meant, and none is taken, but perhaps the discussion of tribal psychology is relevant to others who read these pages.
Kendall
Posted by KenB on October 30, 2000, at 4:47:21
In reply to Is this a tribe?? » shar, posted by Dasypodidae on October 28, 2000, at 22:42:27
(Story retold as remembered from some long-forgotten literary conference)
Coyote heard he was to be the guest of honor at a conference, so he licked at his fur, rolled in the dirt a few times to get on all the freshest summer smells, and caught a taxi to Ramada Inn, where the meeting was held.
He got out of the cab and strolled through the door. Of course a few heads turned in the lobby, but he quickly disappeared into one of the conference rooms and began looking for the head table, which of course is where the guest of honor would be seated.
Soon, the professors and authors and psychologists who had invited him recognized him. Seizing him, they lifted him onto a stainless steel table in the middle of the room and began their scholarly analysis.
“Coyote is a symbol,” said an English professor.
“Coyote represents ambiguity and the uncertainty of life,” replied psychologist.
“Coyote represents pagan beliefs in spirits,” said an author who harbored a not-so-secret religious belief.
“What shall we do with coyote,” said the host of the conference, trying to bring the discussion back into focus.
They began to dissect coyote, pulling and tearing at his skin to discover his inner workings.
Soon, the scholars were embroiled in a heated battle. They argued and debated, cited sources and clarified their positions. They forgot all about coyote, laying exposed on the table. They did not even notice when coyote hopped down from the examining table, wrapped his fur around him, grabbed a few morsels of their delicious catered hors doeuvres and trotted back into the desert where he was most comfortable.
Posted by Dasypodidae on October 30, 2000, at 8:01:08
In reply to Thinking of Dr. Bob, posted by Rzip on October 29, 2000, at 23:43:54
Hi RZIP
I don't think you're a sicko! Did you ever go back to your therapist? Did your relationship(I'm not sure what to call it) with Dr Bob start before you found PB or after? How much do you think having access to his site affected the level of your attachment to him? I'm just curious. I think it's interesting to look at how different people think of PB. Do you have any attachment to any of the other posters or are they mostly props in the Dr Bob drama? Do you think of PB as a place? or some sort of group?
Do you think the limited interaction with Dr Bob intensifies or diminishes your fantasies?Feel free not to answer. I think you're interesting and wish you well.
Dasypodidae
> I think of Dr. Bob ALL THE TIME! Ah! It is driving me crazy. You see, if one was to identify a concrete, distinctive psychotic problem with me...it would be my tendency to take real people into my internal world. In my mind, I kind of see Dr. Bob as my big brother, my friend, my commrade. I think of him a great deal (EVERY DAY).
>
> The reality is that I never met the guy. I just try to analyze him based on his website. But that is exactly how I form my intense relationships in my mind. It is safe, very safe to interact with Dr. Bob in my mind. I talk to him a great deal, every day--even through I never even heard him speak (What does his voice sound like?) In my mind, Dr. Bob is very witty and humorous. Just a delight to be with. Plus he is young and a psychiatrist! I love M.D.'s :-)
>
> The bad thing is that when reality hits, I feel very worrisome and upset. I do not really know Dr. Bob :-( But it precisely because I do not know him that I am letting him becoming one of the personality/voices in my mind. It is just so confusing!!! Part of me, like when I am studying wants Dr.Bob and all the other personalities/voices to go away. But, then I would be left with nothing but an empty mind and feeling. I know, I know that I should make some real friends with real people. But bad things happen when I try to connect with students. I get too anxious and then I lash out at students. Then, they get terrified with me and run away.
>
> But the real people that I have taken into my mind, I have control over them. Have them act as I please. I only take in good people, so my internal world is always very pleasant and nice to fantasize about. In my mind, Dr. Bob is very caring, like a Big brother toward me.
>
> But for the sake of my mental health, I am willing to let the internal Dr. Bob go now. Actually, that is not true. I still want to hold on to him. But this is his website, so at least the interaction(s) is starting to occur in the real world. That's good, that's healthy (I hope). I do not know anymore. I just have to keep reminding myself that Dr. Bob is a real person, a real human being with ONE personality. Oh, I am so jealous of people with one coherent personality. Congruent is the world (Carl Rogers).
>
> By the way, I love Carl Rogers and his Client-Centered therapy approach. I never experienced that kind of therapy, but I like the concept.
>
> Am I getting better, or am I getting worse? I need opinions/feedbacks from you guys. I am welcome to all responses, however don't be intentionally mean, o.k. Be gentle. I can't help but think I am a sicko. But that is so negative. What I wrote is true, and that is the scary reality.
>
> Talk to you later,
> Rzip
Posted by Rzip on October 30, 2000, at 10:02:40
In reply to Re: Thinking of Dr. Bob, posted by Dasypodidae on October 30, 2000, at 8:01:08
> Do you have any attachment to any of the other posters? Do you think of PB as a place? you think the limited interaction with Dr Bob intensifies or diminishes your fantasies?
>Dasypodidae,
I have a great deal of attachment to other posters who have been responding consistently to my posts. I do think of them in excess of Dr. Bob. When I am responding here, I see Dr. Bob as the moderator in the background. However, when I am daydreaming, I talk to the Dr. Bob in my head.
I think PB as a place where I can talk in real time to real people.
Limited interactions in real time with Dr. Bob intensifies my attachment.
Thanks of your thoughts,
Rzip
Posted by Rzip on October 30, 2000, at 10:32:41
In reply to Thinking of Dr. Bob, posted by Rzip on October 29, 2000, at 23:43:54
> Do any of you guys have any suggestion as to medications I could take to quiet my internal voices/world. I know the first thing that pop into my mind is Paxil. But I worry about the withdraw symptoms if I later choose to go off it. I am so resistant toward medications. But, I can not go on like this. It is too stressful, to intensely anxious. Help...
-Rzip
Posted by Dasypodidae on October 30, 2000, at 11:11:39
In reply to Re: Thinking of Dr. Bob, posted by Rzip on October 30, 2000, at 10:32:41
RZIP people have such different reactions to medicines that it would be hard to say. Being aware of potential problems withdrawing at least makes it possible for you to plan ahead and make sure to taper slowly,etc. Have you ever had good experiences with any meds? I really think it's something you need to discuss with your doctor. I dislike medicine intensely myself, but I do take it when I think the positive effects will outweigh the negative. It sounds like you might be really close to that point. I think Paxil might be a good choice. Remember you don't have to be on it forever and if it doesn't help, withdrawal probably won't be that much worse than the way things are now. The other posters here might have more specific meds advice. Maybe you should put a post on the other PB board. Good Luck
> > Do any of you guys have any suggestion as to medications I could take to quiet my internal voices/world. I know the first thing that pop into my mind is Paxil. But I worry about the withdraw symptoms if I later choose to go off it. I am so resistant toward medications. But, I can not go on like this. It is too stressful, to intensely anxious. Help...
>
> -Rzip
Posted by laural on October 30, 2000, at 11:38:04
In reply to Re: Thinking of meds » Rzip, posted by Dasypodidae on October 30, 2000, at 11:11:39
basically that was the exact reasoning i chose to try meds--that i've tried everything else and why not, i can always stop them, no harm done. i think this shows a positive turn, that you can stop beating your head against the wall and turn and walk in a new direction. this is to be admired, that you are willing to do what is hard for you in order to help yourself--this shows me that your sense of self-worth may be improving. keep us posted and good luck! i'm excited for you. you should be aware however that this may be an arduous journey, that the first med you try may or may not work. be tough. laural
Posted by Rzip on October 30, 2000, at 20:29:22
In reply to Re: Thinking of meds--rzip, posted by laural on October 30, 2000, at 11:38:04
Dasypodidae and Laural,
Thank you guys for the support. I have an appointment with my therapist this week, I hope that I'll have the courage to bring up the med topic. She knows how much I resist the idea. I still feel very ambivalent about it. But, I am caving in to the depression and the fantasies...it is just too distracting and leaves me too weakened afterwards. I really can not go on like this. The reality is sinking in.
Enough about me, how is Halloween for you guys. I am not doing anything special at all. But I bet you guys are.
- Rzip
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2000, at 11:22:45
In reply to Coyote, posted by KenB on October 30, 2000, at 4:47:21
> Coyote heard he was to be the guest of honor at a conference...
> They forgot all about coyote, laying exposed on the table. They did not even notice when coyote hopped down from the examining table, wrapped his fur around him, grabbed a few morsels of their delicious catered hors doeuvres and trotted back into the desert where he was most comfortable.
Not only are you not the guest of honor, but you've been blocked multiple times. You've grabbed more morsels, so...
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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