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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Annabelle Smith on November 17, 2010, at 0:46:19
I just needed to come on here tonight. I see my therapist again in less than 2 days, but it feels like it is an eternity away. I feel like I can hardly make it in between sessions, and as I get closer and closer to a session, I feel less able to sleep. I notice a strange pattern that has been happening. I am usually somewhat fine for the first day or two after a session. It is like his presence is still real and is still with me. Then, gradually as each day passes, it becomes harder and harder to remember what it was like to sit in a session, safe with my therapist. I forget the feeling of safety and even how he looks. I have said this before, but sometimes I have listened to saved voicemail messages-- often, it is the only thing that can soothe. It is like hearing his voice brings forth his presence again, which makes me feel safe and protected, often enough to be able to continue with my day or if at night, to fall asleep.
I know that I am idealizing him very highly and I feel very, very attached. This idealization is both soothing and very uncomfortable. I feel an intense hope and dread, fear and comfort, anxiety and depression that comes from this relationship. All of this evokes a feeling in me that I also felt for the 3 months that I worked with him last spring-- it is a sacred feeling; it is a general mood that I have felt over and over in life, a longing for something that I can't quite define-- home, God, self, my mom, my brother, something that has been lost and that I have been grieving. And the dependency feels like it goes to the core, nearly a dependency that I am relying on to survive, a safety that is a groundedness.
I have ongoing running conversations in my head with my therapist. When I get into the silence of my room, I start to talk out loud and can't stop-- there are so many things that I need to talk about. I have longed for a safe place and for a real human relationship for the past 12 years. I have tried to find that with others-- always older people that I tend to go to in desperation, like pastors or teachers. Sometimes I become emotionally close to them, but I usually feel like I blow the boundaries in that I tell them too much at once in too intense of a tone, and they typically back away. Here, finally, is someone with whom I can be honest.
But now I feel so obsessed. I feel ashamed of this, like I am "using" him in a bad way, although I don't know why that would be. I can't help that I am this way right now. It is like he is the only safe ground amidst the chaos, and insofar as that is the case, I see him as my mother, as my groundedness in being, and as my God.
I have read interpretations that this means I am what self psychology (Kohut) calls "object hungry" and lacking a solid self structure. I therefore cling to "selfobjects" that I can idealize, that mirror my experiences, and that I can imitate. This is borderline pathology. This is also just one interpretation, but it says that if this is the case, then the path to healing involves idealizing the therapist and eventually re-building the self structure which for some reason never developed in childhood. I do often feel like I am 10 years old and am supposed to be living as an adult-- hence this feeling that when I graduate, I can't function. I mean this so literally-- it is terrifying.
Maybe I would do best to stay away from theory and anazlying myself from every perspective. It makes me feel more crazy and lost. But it is hard when I just want to figure out what is going on and to get a grip on life again.
Posted by annierose on November 17, 2010, at 7:43:31
In reply to an eternity, posted by Annabelle Smith on November 17, 2010, at 0:46:19
Is this the t that you wanted to terminate the therapy with in the above post?
Have you thought of going more often? Then you will have more time to explore all these feelings that are surfacing. These feelings are intense because they need understanding and unraveling.
Depending upon his orientation, he may or may not encourage you to come more frequently. I found that helpful for me.
Posted by Solstice on November 17, 2010, at 8:45:14
In reply to an eternity, posted by Annabelle Smith on November 17, 2010, at 0:46:19
Annabelle -
I think what you are describing is Very common. You aren't 'werid.' It's an essential part of the process for a significant percentage of people in therapy. When you don't 'need' to do it any longer, it will subside. I agree with AnnieRose - that it might be helpful to see him more often. Maybe even ask him for a way to 'keep' him with you between sessions. Some therapists will give a picture.. but even a business card.. or some other token from his office.. can help. (I think there might have been a reason that an end-of-session crumpled up tissue - that my T had handed me - got stuck in my purse tended up staying there at least until there was another one to replace it :-) For some reason, when I have felt like you describe, it also helped me to have my therapist's name and contact info in my cell phone directory. I couldn't help but stumble over that name unintentionally whenever I went thru the directory to get any number. I think it was just the visual thing that helped. The name and number were there.. and if I needed to, I could call it. The name in my directory signified a relationship that exists. It kept it 'present' for me. Maybe try to put some things in your environment that will help keep him present for you?
Solstice
Posted by annabelle smith on November 17, 2010, at 9:22:09
In reply to Re: an eternity » Annabelle Smith, posted by Solstice on November 17, 2010, at 8:45:14
Should I tell my therapist about all of this? He might already know, but I am not sure. Should I maybe even show him this post again? This is the thing that I feel the most embarrassed about and ashamed to discuss with him-- but I think it is important information for us.
As for the suggestions that you give, I appreciate them, but am terribly afraid and ashamed to ask him about any of them.
Posted by Solstice on November 17, 2010, at 10:25:51
In reply to Re: an eternity, posted by annabelle smith on November 17, 2010, at 9:22:09
Annabelle -
Absolutely! Yes, I think you should talk to him about it - and showing him your post will make it easier. Tell him you've worried about it, but have found out that you apparently aren't the only one who has experienced it. He will understand it - and he most likely *expects* it to be taking place. For you to actually bring it up will say a lot to him about your desire to heal - and that's what he wants to see more than anything. When you walk out of there, you'll feel like a ton of weight has been lifted.. and you won't have to feel embarassed or ashamed. And actually, I think that *making* yourself bring it up, and the vulnerability that this creates for you, followed by his understanding response that lets you know that it is 'normal'.. all of that serves to provide the 'relationship (object) constancy' that you need. When it happens over and over again over a period of time... over many different things... eventually you will take the relationship with you inside of yourself. You will 'feel' him with you throughout the day. You'll hear things he's said to you.. and those things are all part of a wonderful process that will create a secure attachment.
Solstice
> Should I tell my therapist about all of this? He might already know, but I am not sure. Should I maybe even show him this post again? This is the thing that I feel the most embarrassed about and ashamed to discuss with him-- but I think it is important information for us.
>
> As for the suggestions that you give, I appreciate them, but am terribly afraid and ashamed to ask him about any of them.
>
>
Posted by Annabelle Smith on November 17, 2010, at 18:57:18
In reply to Re: an eternity, posted by annierose on November 17, 2010, at 7:43:31
Annierose, I know that this has been confusing and complicated. No, this is not the therapist with whom I recently terminated. This is the therapist with whom I had to stop working last May because of practical limitations (i.e. I left my university for the summer and he left the university psych and counseling center where he had been working to go for full time work in his private practice). I just re-initiated therapy with him at his private practice.
Solstice, as always, thanks for your words. I hope you are right, but I never know how things are going to go in a session. All I know is that right now, it seems like it will never get here. My mind is filled with things to say, and I know I can't get them all out in one session.
There is something else-- when I entered therapy last February, I really needed to be there; however, there was a very specific way in which I feel as though I got worse-- much worse. I think that my getting worse had to do with the idealization invovled in the therapeutic relationship-- the deepest depression I have ever felt, suicidal feelings that though I had experienced them before, were now constantly present, and a feeling of totally helplessness and dependency. I really want someone to tell me that this also is normal in therapy-- that is, getting worse before getting better. I was afraid to bring it up with my therapist because I was afraid his response would be that we needed to terminate-- but at that point, for me, it was too late. To leave him would feel like a death that I couldn't survive. You say that this intense over-idealization is to be expected by therapists and is common, but I am not sure. I don't think that every person who enters therapy acts and behaves this way. Also, I really don't know if my therapist expects this or not-- I have no idea what he really thinks or knows.
Posted by emmanuel98 on November 17, 2010, at 19:46:19
In reply to an eternity, posted by Annabelle Smith on November 17, 2010, at 0:46:19
I felt that way about my T at the beginning, almost exactly as you've described it. I called him for trivial reasons then didn't answer when he called back so I could listen to his voicemails over and over and over. I counted the days between appointments as if I were a child awaiting Christmas morning. I talked to him in my head all the time. When I was alone, I would talk out loud, saying I love you, Dr. A. over and over and over again.
I think Kohut is right. Somehow, you lacked strong self-objects to mirror you and identfy with and now you are doing that with your T. This is actually normal in therapy for many people (not all). If your T is any good, he will understand this. But I also understand your feeling ashamed of this. It took me months of this before I could even broach it with my T and when I did, it was mostly because he interrogated me about it when I became distraught that he was going on vacation and called him up crying begging to see him before he left.
My T always said I worked very hard. It didn't feel like work, but being able to go through this, to work it through, to handle the shame and frustration, is hard work.
Posted by emmanuel98 on November 17, 2010, at 19:53:28
In reply to Re: an eternity, posted by Annabelle Smith on November 17, 2010, at 18:57:18
I don't know about feeling worse and more depressed. I was in such bad shape when I started therapy -- suicidal, falling apart, crying constantly, addicted to drugs and alcohol -- that the roller-coaster of therapy felt like a life-raft. At least I had someone to rely on and talk to. I usually felt better after a session with him. So maybe, if you feel worse, you're putting yourself through this wringer needlessly. How did you feel before you started therapy? Why did you start therapy?
Posted by obsidian on November 17, 2010, at 20:16:46
In reply to an eternity, posted by Annabelle Smith on November 17, 2010, at 0:46:19
one of the things that helped me through this was the relief that came with knowing my therapist understood the feelings I was experiencing.
It's pretty frightening to have that intensity of feeling, and for me there was a fear that it would frighten my T. I wasn't comfortable with that intensity of attachment, and I wanted my T to know that I had some objectivity about it. What can you do but try to understand it and work through it?
take care,
sid
Posted by Annabelle Smith on November 17, 2010, at 20:39:42
In reply to Re: an eternity » Annabelle Smith, posted by emmanuel98 on November 17, 2010, at 19:53:28
Thanks, you guys.
Emmanuel, I started therapy because I felt awful and felt like things were falling apart. I had just come back from a semester studying abroad in Scotland and had almost been able to creat a new, nascent sense of self in that other world away from my life here. While abroad, I made a friend like I have never had before and being with here, made me feel like I used to feel 12 years ago with my brother-- alive and real. Leaving all of this was crushing. Coming back to my university, I had no friends and my courses were difficult-- both academically and emotionally. I began to feel more and more isolated, suicidal and depressed. But underlying all of this, I know, is a bad way of relating to others and to myself. I have no close friends and have never dated anyone. It is this feeling of always faking it and being unreal. I wanted to help with this too.
Actually, much of the sessions last spring were a blur. I forget exactly how it felt. I just knew that I really needed help then, and I felt as though I was trying to rectify problems that I have been dealing with on my own for 10+ years. I have told my therapist that I feel as if therapy is the "meta-situation" of my life; thus, all of the intensities and frustrations that normally center in other areas of my life, manifest themselves in therapy. I used to be nervous when I would meet with a authority figures for lunch or a chat. This is true with on individual in particular at my university. When I started meeting with my therapist, it was as if all of this authorial anxiety centered upon him and moved away from its intense focus on others. I met with this said minister a number of times last spring and was able to have meaningful and connected conversations with him-- but my anxiety centered on that therapeutic relationship.
Because so much is focused and dependent upon this relationship, it makes it very difficult and scary to know how to manage.
Posted by Solstice on November 17, 2010, at 21:39:18
In reply to Re: an eternity, posted by Annabelle Smith on November 17, 2010, at 18:57:18
> My mind is filled with things to say, and I know I can't get them all out in one session.
I know what that feels like, and it is indeed frustrating. The only way to eat an elephant (an enormous amount of things to say) is one piece at a time, one session at a time.
> I think that my getting worse had to do with the idealization invovled in the therapeutic relationship-- the deepest depression I have ever felt, suicidal feelings that though I had experienced them before, were now constantly present, and a feeling of totally helplessness and dependency. I really want someone to tell me that this also is normal in therapy-- that is, getting worse before getting better.Idealization of one's therapist is very common. The range of idealization will vary. It's hard to know if idealization is genuinely the source of feeling like you were getting worse. It sounds like you're talking about the therapist you just terminated with? If so, is it possible that your downward spiral was due more to his mis-handling of your idealization - than the idealization itself?
> I was afraid to bring it up with my therapist because I was afraid his response would be that we needed to terminate-- but at that point, for me, it was too late. To leave him would feel like a death that I couldn't survive.I'm a little confused, because I'm not sure whether we're talking about the therapist you just terminated with, or the 'old' one you just returned to..
> You say that this intense over-idealization is to be expected by therapists and is common, but I am not sure. I don't think that every person who enters therapy acts and behaves this way.It is common, but that doesn't mean everyone experiences it. Among the many who do, some will experience it intensely, others moderately, and others to an even lesser degree. I think therapy can be Very distressing at times. A guage I learned to go by after a toxic therapeutic relationship, is that I feel 'safe.' My therapist describes it as 'feeling held by the therapeutic relationship.' That dynamic includes feeling understood.. feeling like your therapist is attuned to you, or is making the effort to get attuned if they 'miss' it.. and above all.. feeling unjudged. If the therapist you are seeing has much experience at all, believe me, he has been idealized by many, many clients. It comes with the territory. People come into therapy because they are in pain. They have someone giving them their undivided attention.. leaving them feeling wholly understood.. sometimes for the first time in their lives. Given those dynamics, don't you think most of those clients are going to feel like their therapist is the 'one' who can save them? Who can make them feel heard, understood, valued, 'special'? Who wouldn't idealize that?
> Also, I really don't know if my therapist expects this or not-- I have no idea what he really thinks or knows.I really think your best bet is to talk to him about it. Tell him you feel like you are idealizing him, and that you're worried about it. Tell him it embarasses you, and that your worst fear is that you might be terminated because of it. Then let him respond. I will be absolutely floored if he does anything other than, with a great deal of compassion, let you know that your feelings are normal and understandable, and that you won't be terminated because of them. Getting it out on the table will clear a lot of the anxiety for you because it will no longer be a 'secret' shame, and your seeing that he is at ease with your idealization may even cause it to subside enough to be bearable.
You are Not a freak! You are feeling and behaving like a large percentage of people in therapy feel and behave at some point along the way. Please be kind to yourself. Your goal is to heal.
Solstice.
Posted by annabelle smith on November 17, 2010, at 21:54:44
In reply to Re: an eternity, posted by Solstice on November 17, 2010, at 21:39:18
Thank you, Solstice. This really helps me.
No, I wasn't talking about the therapist with whom I just terminated; I did feel some of this idealization with him too, but I am talking about the intense feelings that I feel toward my original (and now, current) therapist. Much of it seems to me to have to do with the re-evokation of an affective state, a place where my here-and-there jabs of longing, desire, glimpses of home, safety, self, and God are somehow culminated in an intense frenzy of energy and presence. That is actually what hurts, is ambiguous and scary. I know that I am safe here-- that is precisely, I think, the source of much of my anxiety. It seems like it is too good to be true, and I keep waiting for the terrible instant when I will realize that actually, it is too good to be true; that is, it is not true or real.
Posted by annabelle smith on November 17, 2010, at 22:08:38
In reply to Re: an eternity, posted by annabelle smith on November 17, 2010, at 21:54:44
I will add this:
maybe I am being too hard on myself? Maybe I need to just let it be. In the class that I am taking right now at my university on Post-Freudian Theory and Religion, my professor-- a pastoral counselor and very, very compassionate and awesome person-- emphasizes repeatedly to the class that one of the most crucial things about therapy is that we MUST trust the process. Trust. I think that is a word with which that I have an incredible amount of trouble.
One of the exercises that my therapist gave me to do during the time between sessions is for me to be a therapist to myself in that I could write and think of things to say to myself that would soothe, validate, and comfort. (we did actually talk about attachment, though not for very long; however, I think this exercise was partly born out of that)
So here goes:
It is OK to idealize and to be attached. Here is the safe place of understanding and "with-ness" that you have longed for so many years, in so many lonely and painful moments. You thought no one could ever understand. You thought that a lot of this was even your fault. But, actually, no. Here is someone who does understand, who is present, and who is willing to stick it through with you while you heal and get better. It is understandable that you have a desperate, even obsessive, attachment to him. That is OK; stop trying to understand, and just let it be. This is your path to wholeness and new life.There. I said it. And I will try to live into this and accept it.
Posted by Solstice on November 17, 2010, at 22:24:49
In reply to Re: an eternity, posted by Annabelle Smith on November 17, 2010, at 20:39:42
> I have told my therapist that I feel as if therapy is the "meta-situation" of my life; thus, all of the intensities and frustrations that normally center in other areas of my life, manifest themselves in therapy.
Yep! That's exactly how it's supposed to work. That's why we feel so vulnerable, too.. because before it's over, things you never expected are likely to show up. My therapist saw things I could have never guessed. I just recently told T that it's like therapy has been this little microcosm of 'life' for me where I've figured out all kinds of things - and have had many of my earliest (pathetic) relationship experiences replaced by experiences in our therapeutic relationship that have built a platform for me that didn't exist before. When that very 'young' emotional dependence first emerged, I was very confused and afraid. I fought against it. But the attachment my therapist facillited would become powerful when things happened in my life that made me feel I'd lost my moorings. I would feel so very humiliated by the vulnerability I felt.. but my T welcomed it, and never made me feel ashamed of it. Experience after experienced, I learned T would 'be there'.. every time. It completely reshaped my relationship functioning.
> I used to be nervous when I would meet with a authority figures for lunch or a chat. This is true with on individual in particular at my university. When I started meeting with my therapist, it was as if all of this authorial anxiety centered upon him and moved away from its intense focus on others. I met with this said minister a number of times last spring and was able to have meaningful and connected conversations with him-- but my anxiety centered on that therapeutic relationship.:) I know what you're talking about. I've had 'authority-anxiety' issues myself. I'll never forget them time that I, for the first time, felt completely at peace in confronting an issue with a particularly 'scary' authority figure. When I told T about it, T asked what I thought about it - what happened that made it work. All I knew was that in that moment, while having that discussion with the 'scary' authority figure, I did not felt alone. I told T that I felt 'surrounded' by our therapeutic relationship. It was empowering for me. I felt like I had a voice, and could use it without fear. It was very cool.
> Because so much is focused and dependent upon this relationship, it makes it very difficult and scary to know how to manage.Annabelle.. You've been getting some good stuff here from emanuel, obsidian, etc. I think it sounds like things are going like they are supposed to go for you. You really do need, though, to talk to him.. tell him what you're telling us. and let us know how it goes!
Solstice
Posted by Solstice on November 17, 2010, at 22:39:37
In reply to Re: an eternity, posted by annabelle smith on November 17, 2010, at 21:54:44
> Thank you, Solstice. This really helps me.
>
> No, I wasn't talking about the therapist with whom I just terminated; I did feel some of this idealization with him too, but I am talking about the intense feelings that I feel toward my original (and now, current) therapist. Much of it seems to me to have to do with the re-evokation of an affective state, a place where my here-and-there jabs of longing, desire, glimpses of home, safety, self, and God are somehow culminated in an intense frenzy of energy and presence. That is actually what hurts, is ambiguous and scary. I know that I am safe here-- that is precisely, I think, the source of much of my anxiety. It seems like it is too good to be true, and I keep waiting for the terrible instant when I will realize that actually, it is too good to be true; that is, it is not true or real.I can relate to that, girl! It can defintely feel intense... and terribly scary. I think part of the process in therapy is coming to terms with the reality that a therapist will not be a life-long partner, and we may really struggle with a desire for that that we know in our head isn't reasonable, but our heart longs for that utopia. It's not just people in therapy that experience that longing - it's probably most people on the planet! A perfect world.. where we are perfectly loved and understood - even adored. Who wouldn't want that to be a reality?? It's a process of maturity where we come to terms that that utopia does not exist, but a really good therapeutic relationship with a caring and trustworthy therapist can help us walk through that door. He won't be perfect, and at points along the way he WILL disappoint you. The trick is in learning how to trust him - to trust the relationship - to know you are safe and understood - and to learn how to work through the inevitable ruptures. Your feelings are nothing to be ashamed of. And talking to him about that stuff will likely markedly reduce the anxiety, and will take the shame out of it for you. Dinah has posted some amazing things that are in the archives about the evolution of her relationship with her T. She often referred to him as her "therapist-mommy." I was intrigued and charmed by Dinah's emotional candor. They talked about it frankly - and really, Annabelle, I think putting your current feelings out on the table in therapy will make a big difference for you.
Sol
Posted by Solstice on November 17, 2010, at 22:45:46
In reply to Re: an eternity, posted by annabelle smith on November 17, 2010, at 22:08:38
> So here goes:
> It is OK to idealize and to be attached. Here is the safe place of understanding and "with-ness" that you have longed for so many years, in so many lonely and painful moments. You thought no one could ever understand. You thought that a lot of this was even your fault. But, actually, no. Here is someone who does understand, who is present, and who is willing to stick it through with you while you heal and get better. It is understandable that you have a desperate, even obsessive, attachment to him. That is OK; stop trying to understand, and just let it be. This is your path to wholeness and new life.
>
> There. I said it. And I will try to live into this and accept it.Bravo Annabelle! Everything you said there is exactly right. Really! Just let it be what it is. Tell him about it.. so you can have the healing experience of his acceptance.. his understanding. Trust will come when you have tested and tested, and found the relationship to be trustworthy. It took me a long, long, long time. If it takes you a long time, don't feel bad about that. Your difficulty with trust doesn't mean anything bad about him.. or about you. You will trust if he is trustworthy.. and when you are ready. Until then, not trusting keeps you safe (that's why my therapist has always said about me :-)
Sol
Posted by Annabelle Smith on November 18, 2010, at 20:29:45
In reply to Re: an eternity, posted by Solstice on November 17, 2010, at 22:39:37
I feel really bad right now. I had my session, and it didn't go well. Here is the block of time and my therapist, sitting there and kindly and patiently waiting for me to start-- and I can't. I waste the first 20 min and finally have him read part of the original post. We talked some about idealization and attchment, but I could not feel present in the room. Disconnected-- from my emotions, from the present interaction, and even from my own thoughts and words. All of what I said was received kindly and with compassion and understanding. But, I think I forced the entire discussion. I chose to discuss this thing that makes me feel the most embarrassed and bad. And I couldn't be present for the conversation.
I feel like I sabotaged our session.
I have to go home for Thanksgiving over the next week, and won't be back for a session until two weeks. When each session ends, it feels like a new death, like I have to figure out how to say good-bye over and over again. And each time a session begins, it feels like I am meeting someone I haven't seen in months (partly true in this case, actually). I need to find ways to grieve and be OK with the absence in between.
I feel very depressed right now. And empty. And alone-- it's a feeling of being absolutely alone.
Posted by Solstice on November 19, 2010, at 13:55:24
In reply to Re: an eternity, posted by Annabelle Smith on November 18, 2010, at 20:29:45
Hi Annabelle -
I am so sorry that you're experiencing so much pain right now. You aren't sabotaging your therapy. I think the Important thing for you to do right now is to just stay *in* it. More really might be better right now. If you could see him twice a week, it might make the between times more bearable. If all you can do is is there in anxious silence... then just Do that. This isn't a performance that you have to give. He is big enough to handle your anxious silence. For many of us, a therapeutic relationship is the first time we've experienced understanding, compassion, kindness... so of course it can feel 'unreal' to us or leave us feeling like we are 'unreal.' That's why it's important to just stay *in* it. Just be *with* it. Over time, you will start taking in that understanding, compassion and kindnes... sand you will learn that it is reliable... that it will be there again and again.. it can be trusted.. even when you can do nothing more than sit in anxious silence. If you can, maybe you could talk about safe, mundane, every day things? I think you're in school? Talk about a class, a professor, a test. Talk about a book you're having to read. Therapy is hard work.. but the hard work for us is often just staying *in* it. The therapeutic stuff takes place in little unexpected moments along the way... the 'work' is in the background, outside of our awareness. It's about the relationship you're building with your therapist. So Annabelle - Be ok! You are fine. You aren't wasting anything... and you aren't sabotaging anything. Be kind to yourself. Therapy is hard. It can be hard to not 'run' from what we need to have. Just breathe deeply, and remember what it felt like to be treated with kindness and compassion in session. Let yourself look forward to the next time. And don't give yourself grief about all the anxiety and inability to talk. It's normal. It's understandable. And your therapist is big enough to handle your anxiety... your silence... your attachment.. your idealization... whatever. He can bear it. He can stay with you while you work your way through it... just stay *in* it.
Solstice
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