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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2009, at 12:44:55
My assignment got put aside for now, because we've been discussing attachment and loss. And how very bad I am at both. I seldom attach, but when I do I stick like a limpet. Any attempts to dislodge me result in my totally melting down, and behaving in ways that I describe as crazy. My therapist doesn't like that word.
I think the answer is for me to care less. He totally opposes that, but his solutions sound an awful lot to me like caring less. He says that people who have a lot of attachments are less likely to be unhinged when one is threatened. (I'm paraphrasing.) But isn't that because none of them are as important? Because they care less? Besides, I don't attach easily, and pretending to attach to more people isn't going to work. I have to actually do it.
He talks about attachment in ways that I just don't understand. He talks about people moving on without caring about those they leave any less. I don't understand that.
I told him that he's a Newfie, a sporting breed. I'm a sheepdog. I don't attach easily or often, but once I do, I'm attached. I don't move on. I don't take loss easily. It doesn't matter if other people are kind or friendly or maybe even nicer than the person or thing I'm attached to. I pine away. Or dig my way out until my poor paws are bloody to find my way home. I gnaw my skin to hot spots and beyond. I don't change. I don't move on.
He thinks it's a fear of rejection. Ok, there may be truth in that. But I also get frantic if *I* do the leaving. I was more hysterical when we decided to move than I was when he terminated me. That wasn't his rejecting me. That was me rejecting him. I still couldn't do it, I still couldn't handle it.
He delves into my early experiences and wants me to think of why I am the way I am. I can't think of any particular reason. I think sheepdogs are born not made. I'd like to attach easily and handle the ending of relationships well. I don't. I don't think I ever will.
I think the right thoughts. I take the right meds. But when it comes right down to it, I'm a sheepdog. I'll chew my leg off before I'll be separated from those I've attached to.
I'm going to have a miserable remainder of my life.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 17, 2009, at 14:49:39
In reply to Are sheepdogs born or made?, posted by Dinah on July 17, 2009, at 12:44:55
As you know, Dinah, we are a lot alike in these ways. I don't know if you were born that way, but I suspect it has at least something to do with your primary attachment from childhood. I know it does for me. I think if you don't learn how to healthily attach in those early years, it is much harder to attach in the first place and then have the object of your attachment leave, or to leave them.
There are people I can walk away from without a second thought. But those are not the people who feel like family to me -- a best friend (though less so now since last Jan.), a woman I consider my sister in everything except biology, my pseudo-son and my T (my mother). Those are the people I can't seem to walk away from. Not without great emotional and physical harm to myself. And yet two of them have walked away from me or are planning to in the near future.
Sigh.
I hope you are wrong about the remainder of your life. And if you and your T figure anything out about this, please fill me in, okay?
P.S. The first dog I ever loved (best friend's therapy dog) is a Sheltie-Corgi mix. Talk about attachment and loyalty...
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2009, at 21:53:02
In reply to Re: Are sheepdogs born or made? » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on July 17, 2009, at 14:49:39
I've got one now. :)
I think this whole issue is at the root of a lot of my problems. But I don't see that much hope in working on it. My therapist and I don't even seem to use words in the same way.
As I get older, I can't help but think that this is going to come up more often, and I just can't bear it. I suppose I could stay heavily medicated.
My therapist has developed this little smile, and I think it means that he feels sorry for me or something.
Wouldn't it be nice to be more like them?
Posted by Tabitha on July 18, 2009, at 1:45:53
In reply to Are sheepdogs born or made?, posted by Dinah on July 17, 2009, at 12:44:55
Therapists are idiots, aren't they? They make a handsome living off selling us this idea we can (a) find the reason we are the way we are in our few murky memories of early childhood and (b) change the way we are.
I wish they'd just admit they're really just a very expensive someone to talk to who doesn't demand anything but payment in return.
Posted by seldomseen on July 18, 2009, at 7:13:10
In reply to Are sheepdogs born or made?, posted by Dinah on July 17, 2009, at 12:44:55
"He talks about attachment in ways that I just don't understand. He talks about people moving on without caring about those they leave any less. I don't understand that."
I think what he's talking about here is forming a stable attachment which does persist even if the person isn't physically present. I think it's kind of like a internal "knowing" of love.
To me this attachment doesn't mean that we won't miss them, or experience profound grief at the loss of their physical presence. Instead, we don't need them to be present to care for them, or to know that they care for us. The emotional attachment persists.
I wonder if it is more a question of intolerance to the emotional pain of separation (which I think exists even in the most stable of attachments) rather than the perceived loss of attachment.
Your reference to dogs I think is very interesting. As natural pack animals, it is instinctual to dogs to absolutely positively rely on other dogs in their pack for their very existence. The pack provided the protection and food required for the animal to live. It's no wonder some dogs still to this day, even in a domestic situation, experience extreme separation anxiety. Horses are the same way. They really do need the physical presence of other horses.
I think that humans may span the continuum of of pack nature, some are very pack oriented, whereas others are less so.
Unfortunately, we now live in a culture where separation and loss are a fact of life. People come in and out of our lives, but I don't think the key is to care less. It is the ability to tolerate the separation, while still maintaining the caring.
I actually have more to say about this, but I have to run.
Until then, I certainly don't think you are doomed to a life of misery.
Seldom.
Posted by Phillipa on July 18, 2009, at 13:04:15
In reply to Re: Are sheepdogs born or made? » Dinah, posted by seldomseen on July 18, 2009, at 7:13:10
I think I was a dog in my past life if there was one a Brandy dog. As that is the only true attachment ever had. And didn't learn trust in early childhood. Melanie Klein stuff. Phillipa
Posted by seldomseen on July 18, 2009, at 15:34:25
In reply to Are sheepdogs born or made?, posted by Dinah on July 17, 2009, at 12:44:55
"He delves into my early experiences and wants me to think of why I am the way I am. I can't think of any particular reason. I think sheepdogs are born not made. I'd like to attach easily and handle the ending of relationships well. I don't. I don't think I ever will."
I would like to know how you define the end of a relationship. Because it can mean different things to different people I think.
I think two people can be miles and miles apart, perhaps even never speak again, and still a permanent relationship exists between them.
And I do think your therapist is right. The more people that one is emotionally connected to, the better one is at connecting to others, and absorbing the loss of a physical presence of another. It's like we internalize the pack almost. The loss of one member is less devastating yet the pack remains intact and we are still whole in it.
Seldom.
Posted by Dinah on July 18, 2009, at 15:35:25
In reply to Re: Are sheepdogs born or made? » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on July 18, 2009, at 1:45:53
:)
I'm trying to convince him he *isn't* just that.
I don't think he gives nature enough credit though. My early life may have been a bit unstable, but nothing like what he was asking me for.
Posted by Dinah on July 18, 2009, at 15:47:56
In reply to Ok more rambling., posted by seldomseen on July 18, 2009, at 15:34:25
What you say makes sense to me on an intellectual basis.
It's probably what my therapist is trying to say, although you say it much better. Once when he was thinking of moving, he was upset at my attitude. He wanted me to remember how good our relationship had been and retain and value all the things he'd taught me. An extraordinary request to my eyes.
I don't really understand how to do that. I mean I do in part. The people who I cared about and who left me, I think of them with affection and are happy to hear from them if I ever do. Yet, the loss and pain overlays those positive things.
In this society it does happen all the time. And it still baffles and upsets me, and makes me wish I never cared all that much. Caring enough to get enjoyment but not enough to cause so much pain seems far preferable.
For whatever reason, I just don't attach deeply all that often. Either I attach in such a way as the loss is no more than a pang, or I attach in such a way that the loss is like ripping out some vital organ. I don't seem to have a middle ground for attachment at all. My therapist would like me to have that, but again, that seems like caring less.
But I do understand what you're saying. It just seems like a dream to me. I'll keep your replies bookmarked though, and read over them, and maybe one day they'll filter through to me.
Posted by Dinah on July 18, 2009, at 15:51:34
In reply to Re: Are sheepdogs born or made?, posted by Phillipa on July 18, 2009, at 13:04:15
It's hard to say with my early life. Certainly there was objective upheaval. But I don't remember feeling all that upset by it. My mother was a constant in my world when I was very young.
Maybe it's because of my involvement in dogs that I tend to favor nature over nurture. Even with dogs, experiences tend to influence how temperament is expressed. And of course humans have more ability to make choices that don't leave them at the mercy of their genes. But the similarities between dogs and a parent they may have never seen is just too strong for me to come down anywhere but on the nature side of that debate.
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 19, 2009, at 19:43:47
In reply to Are sheepdogs born or made?, posted by Dinah on July 17, 2009, at 12:44:55
One additional dog anecdote to add to this discussion:
Bayleigh and I went to an adoption event yesterday to see her last puppy, who ended up being adopted before we got there, and to visit with her foster family. Bayleigh is one of the sweetest, most affectionate, happiest dogs I know and her reactions to people and other animals are often exuberant. I was prepared for that with her foster family, but she didn't react to them any differently than she did to total strangers. I suspect my bond with her is stronger because my house is a one-dog house and there were 8 dogs, counting her puppies, when she was with the foster family. But still, she appears to have moved on way better than I imagined. And I don't think that makes her less able to connect with me. So I'm still thinking about this and trying to figure out if I can do something differently with my attachments. Or at least think about them differently.
P.S. Everyone in the rescue group was amazed at how healthy and happy she looked. Several of them gave me kudos for making her so happy. I just looked at them and said, "You're kidding, right? She came to me this way."
Hmmmm....
Posted by Dinah on July 20, 2009, at 8:20:36
In reply to Re: Are sheepdogs born or made? » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on July 19, 2009, at 19:43:47
:)
Yes, some dogs move happily enough on, even when they are attached. Most do, really. The one man dogs I've known have been rare enough for me to remember.
The dog who was most attached to my mother, ever, used to wait by the door for a few hours, but if she was gone for days, she'd happily attach herself to someone else until my mother came home. Yet another dog, who didn't appear as attached, would lie in the front door until she came home. Even the time she was gone for a month. And my dog Dinah was an adoptee after my aunt entered a nursing home. She absolutely refused to stay with my mother, who had picked her up from my aunt's home, and spent all her time with my mother trying to escape. When she came to live with me, she settled down with content if not delight, but she never attached to anyone here like she did to my aunt.
The time he did leave me, the worst of the pain did subside even in that short period of time. But I think I'd be more like the Dinah whose namesake I am. In the past, I've proved to be more like that with regard to attachment.
It sounds as if you're doing a great job with Bayleigh. She quite likely enjoyed being with her foster family and liked them very much. But she wasn't there an enormously long time and was likely preoccupied with her pups. It wouldn't be like the attachment that forms in a long term doggy relationship. Occasionally it's an instant fall in love sort of thing on their parts, but more often it's slower and more deliberate than that. My current dog decided I was her person in my family right away, but she didn't start becoming a one man dog until a year or so in.
Posted by Dinah on July 21, 2009, at 12:25:17
In reply to Re: Are sheepdogs born or made? » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on July 20, 2009, at 8:20:36
Sigh.
Now it's like last session never happened. He's saying there's nothing wrong with me, that it's natural to feel the way I do.
I really don't think it is. I know I'm not alone in this, but it just isn't normal to be so invested in a few others that I am completely dependent on things totally beyond my ability to control.
Isn't it supposed to be the other way around? Isn't he the one who is supposed to say that this is causing major problems in my life, causing me to feel needless pain over and over again, and it's something I need to make a high priority to change?
Posted by Dinah on July 21, 2009, at 12:34:44
In reply to :-(, posted by Dinah on July 21, 2009, at 12:25:17
In talking to him today I did see some glimmers of historical context.
When I was very little, no matter how many other changes there were in my life, my mother was a constant, and represented safety to me. She may have caused a lot of those changes, and with others she may have been as nuts as she is now, but with me she was my safe mamma. That all changed right around the time so many other things went south in my life. My mother only really likes very little kids. When they get to be ten or so, they are less interesting to her. And since I had so much upheaval in my life that I suddenly wanted very different things than she did, it was more abrupt a severance than would ordinarily have happened.
So much happened then that I really went into hiding, so for so many years, the real me wasn't really living, just existing. Something about my therapist made me feel safe again. He thinks it is his tolerant nature and patience. I think he just emits slow deep waves of energy. Or maybe he just somehow felt or smelled like my mama. That part of me that went into hiding peeped out and engaged the world again.
So...
Rather literally, the loss of the safety that was my mother (combined with many other things of course) resulted in the end of my existence (as I was then). That part of me only resumed a meaningful life when I felt safe with my therapist. So to some extent to me loss does equate with annihilation.
I'm not sure how that helps me...
(Plus it only explains him. The phenomenon is not limited to him. I either don't attach much at all, or I attach like a leech. So it doesn't explain the other attachments.)
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 21, 2009, at 17:40:18
In reply to However..., posted by Dinah on July 21, 2009, at 12:34:44
I definitely want to continue this discussion, Dinah, because I think you are onto something for both of us. My mother, too, prefers young kids, but she's really all done by the time they are 2 and can voice an opinion. As you may guess, she and I had very, very different opinions almost immediately. I think she tried until I was around 5 and then she just wrote me off because I couldn't be the daughter she wanted. I think for me, there was abuse all the way along, but it was combined with some love and attachment for those first few years.
And it has worked for me the same exact way with my T as it has with yours. I was completely unable to connect to others in any meaningful way until I met her (and about 4 years into my therapy). Since then, I have been able to make that connection to a few other people. I haven't figured out exactly the common ground yet, but for whatever reason, they all feel like family to me -- safe and warm and comfortable.
I want to think about this some more and definitely talk about it more.
P.S. Completely off topic, the local Beagle rescue group is probably going to agree to take my rescue on and let me foster him until I can make an informed decision about adopting him. YEA!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Dinah on July 21, 2009, at 19:27:32
In reply to Re: However... » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on July 21, 2009, at 17:40:18
I wish my therapist wanted to continue it. I really think it's a core issue for me, my attachment pattern, yet today he clearly had no interest in pursuing the topic.
I don't know what changed in how we were discussing things from last session to this, but something must have.
I'm feeling tearful tonight. I'm not sure why. But I'm sure it will pass.
It's not like I can do anything about it anyway. I can't think myself into or out of attachments. So I shouldn't mind that he doesn't wish to pursue this.
Posted by Dinah on July 21, 2009, at 19:28:51
In reply to Re: However... » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on July 21, 2009, at 17:40:18
That's great about the beagle!
That will let you decide what's best for you (and him) without feeling overly responsible for what will happen if he doesn't suit your household.
I hope things go well when you meet him!
Posted by TherapyGirl on July 21, 2009, at 20:10:55
In reply to Re: However... » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on July 21, 2009, at 19:27:32
Sometimes it's interesting to me to compare the ebb and flow of your T and mine. Maybe they share the same pool of therapy energy and so both can't be on at the same time -- I'll let you know after Thurs. night. :-)
I still think you should bring this up again, if for no other reason than to see what has changed or why he doesn't think it's a problem. My guess is that in another session, he might react differently. I agree with you that this is important.
Sorry you are feeling tearful. Wish I could help some way.
((((((((Dinah))))))))
This is the end of the thread.
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