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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by wishingstar on November 17, 2008, at 16:59:28
In reply to follow-up....., posted by twinleaf on November 17, 2008, at 13:19:56
Good for you twinleaf. I really mean that. As you may remember, I also experienced a painful "termination" awhile back and given that, I cant imagine how difficult and hard it must have been at times to do this! You're really taking back the power for yourself and away from this man... exactly as it should be. Congratulations.
Posted by Dinah on November 17, 2008, at 17:09:10
In reply to follow-up....., posted by twinleaf on November 17, 2008, at 13:19:56
I'm glad you did that.
I can't imagine any possible scenario where his behavior could be considered acceptable or therapeutic. It sounds very much as if he needs some personal help (at the very least) before he continues to practice analysis. It's such an intense experience, even in comparison to the more here and now counseling my therapist does, that I'm sure it would be difficult for a therapist to do it if the therapist doesn't have his own stuff under control.
Posted by twinleaf on November 17, 2008, at 17:47:58
In reply to Re: follow-up..... » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on November 17, 2008, at 17:09:10
Thanks, guys! I really do appreciate the validation and support. You're right, Dinah, psychoanalysis is so intense- you find yourself getting transferences from every unresolved or traumatic relationship you've ever had. And the analysts get continual countrtransferences. If they are in good shape, they can use those countertransferences to understand more of what is going on with their patients. They really do have to be genuinely healthy, and have to have worked hard on their own problems. The training analyses take years, and they often go back for one or more additional ones. I agree- that's what he needs to do. As it happens, my present analyst is on the ethics committee! I didn't know that until after I had decided to write my letter. He said that he would recuse himself when my letter is discussed. I think he also probably can't tell me what the committee decides.
Posted by Dinah on November 17, 2008, at 17:58:02
In reply to Re: follow-up.....wishingstar and Dinah, posted by twinleaf on November 17, 2008, at 17:47:58
I daresay he won't be able to. Does that cause any friction between the two of you? I think it might cause a bit of tension if it were my therapist.
Posted by twinleaf on November 17, 2008, at 18:44:00
In reply to Re: follow-up » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on November 17, 2008, at 17:58:02
I don't think so. I frequently ask things about him (following the rule of saying everything which comes to mind). He never answers, but will ask why I want to know, and, his favorite, " what do you imagine the answer might be?" Actually, this is not nearly as frustrating as it sounds, because he is directing my attention back inside me, while he listens intently. It always seems to end up with me being a bit more comfortable with all the feelings which are swirling around inside me, and realizing I really didn't need to know personal things about him, and also that I really need him as an analyst, not as a friend.
Posted by DAisym on November 17, 2008, at 20:19:08
In reply to Re: follow-up » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on November 17, 2008, at 18:44:00
I'm glad you are finding your way towards closure. It was a big step you took and I can only imagine the conflict as you mailed the letter.
I know you had some contact with your old therapist after the initial break, but I wonder if you've ever received anything approaching an explanation or apology? Not that there could be enough of either, IMO.
I'm sure there will be lots of feelings about this still - but you've taken a huge step here. I'm proud of you.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 17, 2008, at 20:25:59
In reply to follow-up....., posted by twinleaf on November 17, 2008, at 13:19:56
Good for you! It sounds like you did it just right. You must have done a lot of hard work in the last 18 months.
Posted by stellabystarlight on November 17, 2008, at 20:38:10
In reply to follow-up....., posted by twinleaf on November 17, 2008, at 13:19:56
Wow, Twinleaf! You are such a remarkable woman! Honestly, each time I'd read any of your posts, I would think about how your old analyst ended your relationship, and I would be in awe of dignified way in which you handled such a shocking termination. I felt your self-esteem was shaken by the rejection you felt, but still fully intact despite what your old analyst put you through, and hoped to hear soon that you'd come to a place where you're ready to reclaim your power. I always thought that it was just a matter of time before you'd stand-up for Twinleaf and Pfinstegg, and take a well thought-out action on your behalf as I've felt many of your strengths through your writings. I'm so glad you're bringing closure to this painful chapter of your life now...you are one strong woman, Twinleaf!
This is such a huge step towards healing on so many levels. I wonder how this will affect the different parts of you and your life? I'm certain it will only affect you in a positive way, but I wonder what subtle changes you might notice? Also, what other people might notice in you? I do believe that courage begets strength! I'm very excited for you and can't wait to read about your continued progress. Please continue to share your triumphs and defeats(just in case you experience mixed emotions about it on some level in the future.) Can I be proud of someone I've never met? Well, I am very proud of you, Pfinstegg/Twinleaf! You are an inspiration.
Stellabystarlight
Posted by Trident on November 17, 2008, at 22:06:36
In reply to follow-up....., posted by twinleaf on November 17, 2008, at 13:19:56
You are awesome and very brave! Congrats - I hope this brings you some peace, and pride!
Posted by Wittgensteinz on November 18, 2008, at 15:03:31
In reply to follow-up....., posted by twinleaf on November 17, 2008, at 13:19:56
Twinleaf,
The feeling I get when reading your post is that you have reached a sense of peace with it - and that seems quite a remarkable achievement and a testament to the good work and progress you are making with your now analyst.
I wasn't a member of babble until some time after the occurrence with your previous analyst but I remember reading some threads about it in the archives while I was browsing babble. It saddened and shocked me at the time that such a thing could even happen. Now, as you know, I also see an analyst (not as frequently as you saw your previous analyst but still it is extremely intense), I can understand how being in such a relationship brings vulnerabilities, both for patient and therapist. It does take a skilled, competent and stable (healthy) person to conduct good analysis.
I've had some troubles in my relationship with my own analyst the last weeks - things are going better and it seems in a way this 'happening' has helped me move forward - but it was scary - I did have to think how it would be to suddenly stop and close the door on it so to speak. That thought was terrifying - and to think you had this forced on you and in such an unexpected, devastating manner - and to see where you are now. That took great courage.
I'm glad you were able to write and send the letter and I hope it gives you closure - whatever comes of it (and whatever you hear of that), you will have been heard and what happened will not have gone without being investigated and hopefully some important lessons will be learned on the part of this other analyst.
Witti
Posted by JayMac on November 18, 2008, at 17:54:43
In reply to follow-up....., posted by twinleaf on November 17, 2008, at 13:19:56
That's great! And empowering!!! Hug!!
Posted by rskontos on November 18, 2008, at 18:16:25
In reply to follow-up....., posted by twinleaf on November 17, 2008, at 13:19:56
Twinleaf,
I remember many of your posts regarding this and so many as you have journeyed toward this day. I am so thrilled you have reached this level. You have always helped me on my way. I am thankful for you sharing yours and this day especially.
I am glad you took back what he took away!
I know it was a hard thing to do but such an empowering one.
rsk
ps. I also know that regardless of the outcome it was the process that counts.
Posted by twinleaf on November 19, 2008, at 9:30:26
In reply to Re: follow-up » twinleaf, posted by DAisym on November 17, 2008, at 20:19:08
Thank you, Daisy! You warm words mean so much. I did have some contact with him after the "GET OUT!". He called me and asked me to come back, saying he remained "deeply committed" to my treatment. I was still so dependent and enmeshed with him that I came, but he was very cold and indifferent. He mentioned the word "termination" once, and after two weeks, kicked me out again! Looking back, I think he was forcing me to go through a mockery of a two-week termination so as to minimize the chance that I would sue him- something I wouldn't do, anyway.
On a more positive note, after I had mailed the letter, I went for my Monday appointment, and without even knowing what I had done, my analyst commented: "you seem different; your face looks different- I haven't seen you like this before" Inside, I did feel different- I didn't feel like anyone's victim any longer.
I'm so glad you are posting more, Daisy. I just love the accounts of the conferences you attend, as well as the books and articles you recommend. It was very exciting to hear that you had "met someone". I hope that relationship is deepening and beginning to bring you happiness.
Posted by twinleaf on November 19, 2008, at 9:39:24
In reply to Re: follow-up..... » twinleaf, posted by TherapyGirl on November 17, 2008, at 20:25:59
Thank you, TG! I can't help wondering what the ethics committee is going to think, when they find out that one of their "best and brightest" was so emotionally abusive to a patient. I'm VERY curious, but will almost certainly never know.
I hope you and your T. will find a way to terminate that isn't too painful. After so many years, she's can't just disappear. You're going to think about her a lot, and it would be wonderful if you had some way to keep the caring and connection going- maybe in the same way that tenderheart has done.
Posted by twinleaf on November 19, 2008, at 9:53:23
In reply to Bravo! Applause! Standing Ovation! Whistles!... » twinleaf, posted by stellabystarlight on November 17, 2008, at 20:38:10
Thank you so much, SBS! You always write the dearest, most emotionally tuned-in posts, and they are always so tremendously supportive. So valuable for those of us who receive one! I knew that I did the right thing, but, as that letter slipped into the mailbox, I was thinking that I was setting something in motion that had an unknown ending. Will he be reprimanded? Will other analysts no longer refer patients to him? Will he feel ashamed, and realize that he needs to change some things, or will he deny everything and say that I a pathological liar?
You haven't posted too much lately about your relationship with your own T, but I'm left at the moment with the feeling that you are more intelligent and emotionally sensitive than he is, and that might have led to a role reversal, where you know more quickly than he does what is happening, and what all the nuances and ramifications in your relatonship are at any given moment. If that's true, it can be tough to deal with. I hope you'll tell me if I'm completely off here!
Posted by twinleaf on November 19, 2008, at 10:05:08
In reply to Re: follow-up....., posted by Trident on November 17, 2008, at 22:06:36
Thank you, Trident! I appreciate your warm thoughts so much.I had to spend about 18 months working my way to this point, but I do feel pleased and proud to have stood up for myself. I can't help but be aware that, when you are in abusive situations as a child, there is so little you can do to help or protect yourself. It's wonderful to learn that, as an adult, you actually do have the power to put a stop to abusive treatment.
Posted by twinleaf on November 19, 2008, at 10:24:45
In reply to Re: follow-up....., posted by Wittgensteinz on November 18, 2008, at 15:03:31
Thank you, Witti! I appreciate you warm and understanding words more than I can say. I've noticed, too, that you and I seem to be the only two people posting now who go to an analyst. I think we both know how extremely intense analysis can get- not just our own feelings, which seem to be heightened to an amazing extent, but also the analysts' feelings. They really do have to have robust, healthy personalities to withstand the emotional storms of 8-10 patients a day AND their own powerful emotional responses to each person.
I was following with interest how you were managing the (partial)rupture you seemed to have had with your analyst. I was so sorry to learn that it had happened at all, because you seemed to have such a good relationship with him before- trusting, loving, the ideal foundation for working and changing.
It sounded like a counter-transference problem on his part- he seemed slightly cold and rejecting where he had formerly been in such warm contact with you. My present analyst would say that it's probably a reaction formation against intense loving feelings for you, but that's just a wild guess! I'm glad to hear things are improving; I hope they get to better-than-ever very soon...
,
Posted by twinleaf on November 19, 2008, at 10:29:46
In reply to Re: follow-up..... » twinleaf, posted by JayMac on November 18, 2008, at 17:54:43
Thank you, JayMac! I appreciate your supportive message very much. I know you are rather new to Babble, but your posts are very thoughtful and interesting, and you have so much to offer..I hope you continue posting regularly...
Posted by twinleaf on November 19, 2008, at 10:41:39
In reply to Re: follow-up..... » twinleaf, posted by rskontos on November 18, 2008, at 18:16:25
Thank you, rsk! Your message meant a lot to me, because we have both been here long enough to have seen one another's triumphs and defeats, and to see what is happening over time.
I wanted to share a thought I've been having for several weeks now: reading your posts this fall, I was struck by how different they are from the ones you wrote a year ago. You describe difficult things in all of them, but in the recent ones there seemed to be a note of hopefulness, and of confidence and belief in yourself that is new. I thought to myself, "oh, she's getting BETTER!" I hope I'm right- but these thoughts couldn't have kept coming into my mind without some good reason...
Posted by rskontos on November 19, 2008, at 11:19:21
In reply to Re: follow-up..... » rskontos, posted by twinleaf on November 19, 2008, at 10:41:39
Thanks Twinleaf,
I was also reflecting on my progress, although I don't tend to see it. Partly due to some things my t said in therapy on Monday and partly due to some things a professor I spoke to about going back to school.
And in part due to your post. I have watched so many here progress and discuss where they are in therapy. The stages if you will, and I am slowly realizing where I am in therapy. My t knows how often I come here. he knows I discuss things here I don't feel I get resolved with him. If he has a thought about it one way or another he doesn't share it with me. He just nods his head when I tell him what I have posted about or read about. But I talked to him often about my Babble world but when I feel it is important.
I have lately gotten more courage to tell him when I feel he has let me down, or when I open up to him and he doesn't address it enough. Like last week.
I have noticed I have a problem hanging on to my good feelings he gives me. All in all, he is helping. I just have a hard time hanging on to the good he does me. But I remember so many Babblers talking about so, I recognize this, too is a stage and I will progress through it.
I have my ups and downs. But through them, I still do things that are good for me despite my down feelings at the time. I stop sitting in front of the TV. I go exercise, I take a walk. I come to Babble. I do versus stew. So I must start thinking about that in terms of progress.
Thanks for this response. I am thrilled I helped you and you must know how you always help me!
rsk
Posted by Wittgensteinz on November 20, 2008, at 10:04:45
In reply to Re: follow-up..... » Wittgensteinz, posted by twinleaf on November 19, 2008, at 10:24:45
I understand if you'd rather not go into it, but did your previous analyst ever give an explanation why he abruptly ended your treatment - did you ever find out what on earth happened? It sounds like he had a breakdown of sorts - who knows, perhaps you are not his only patient to file a complaint against him over this. Did it come about completely without warning? How long was it before you found your current analyst - how did you go about 're-starting' your analysis. Was it a matter of beginning from scratch? How different are their techniques?
I recall that Annierose also sees an analyst.
My T hasn't really given an explanation for what happened - he has pretty much refused to say more on it, so I have had little choice but to leave it. What he did say was that the evening before that session, he had spoken about me with the new pdoc. I had agreed to let them consult one another on my case. Incidentally, my Pdoc, whom I see purely for meds management, is also an analyst (my analyst is more experienced and well-known - the pdoc knew (of) him already).
The first time I saw the pdoc he specifically asked me if I found Dr. S. too cold - to which I said no. At the time it struck me as a rather pointed question - why not just ask how I found Dr. S in general? I can see why some might find him cold in his manner - he's not overflowing with softness and empathy. I replied that if he were too warm I would find it hard to find him genuine.
As far as I know, during the discussion they had, the pdoc suggested I might have some BPD traits - but my T disagreed - if a diagnosis has to be made, he felt I more likely fitted someone with an avoidant personality disorder.. anyway.. then it made him wonder I suppose. I think I might have some BPD traits - but certainly wouldn't 'qualify' for a full-blown diagnosis, and perhaps I'm a particularly difficult patient to treat - in that I have such trust issues - but not difficult in the sense of someone being manipulative. Anyway, T said that after the phone call he thought to himself "I shouldn't be so lenient on Witti" - I still don't know what he meant by this and I did probe but to no avail. The pdoc also suggested I stop temporarily with the analysis and join a day-patient program for a time - my T again apposed this idea - pdoc has lost interest in this idea too now.
I do notice a change since that session - now he does better at avoiding answering my questions. If I ask him, for example, whether he had a good weekend, he will now answer "yes" or "fine" and leave it at that - before he would usually look in his diary and mention some detail of his weekend. In honesty I mostly asked that question to give myself a little time to collect my thoughts - I cycle to his house and as soon as I arrive we start the session and so I'm usually a little puffed out. It always amused me that he needed to refer to his diary to decide whether he did in fact have a good week(end) and what he even did!
Naturally, it appeals to me that he might have 'intense loving feelings' for me and that's why this came about - but who knows - on my part it would be wishful thinking (and rationally it might not be such a good thing for ones analyst to feel this way about you) - but it could be that he felt my treatment was going off course and he sharply tried to steer it back on track - some revelation through his conversation with the pdoc. He's not going to say what happened in that phone conversation or what happened in his head thereafter. Should I expect him to tell me? Or is it unfair of me to push him on it? There was a session 2 weeks ago where it got to the point where he repeatedly replied "I have nothing more to say on this!" - all I got from him was that what happened was most unusual. At a certain point I said that I didn't know if I could continue my treatment with him with the way things were and he said "well if I'm no longer of use to you, then maybe you should have a good think about it". I felt like he should help try and fix it, but he simply wouldn't.
So since then I've complied and left it and that's helped - it feels semi-back to normal. He's still my rock-solid ally - I still feel the same attachment toward him and I feel his positive regard. I do however also feel like a child with a wound under a plaster - wanting to lift the plaster up and take a peak at it again!
Sorry, I should perhaps have written this in a separate thread.
Witti
Posted by rskontos on November 20, 2008, at 12:26:35
In reply to Re: follow-up..... » twinleaf, posted by Wittgensteinz on November 20, 2008, at 10:04:45
I see an analyst.
rsk
Posted by twinleaf on November 20, 2008, at 12:48:16
In reply to Re: follow-up..... » twinleaf, posted by Wittgensteinz on November 20, 2008, at 10:04:45
Yes, there were warning signs during the last year. He had been so empathetic, caring and "there" in the years before that. But for the last 12 months or so, he became much colder, and he also became critical of me. Because I was so attached to him- enmeshed with him, really, I ignored all the clear signs that something was very wrong. I felt that losing him would be worse than enduring his abusive behavior. Looking back, that was so clearly the wrong choice! Actually, I knew it was then, also, but I simply couldn't bring myself to face it. There were so many wonderful shared memories of the times we worked harmoniously together. I kept telling myself our relationship would get back to that if I just stuck it out. Instead, it just got worse and worse.
For that last year, there was even a sort of role reversal, with me in the role of the soothing mother, who never brought up anything that might be upsetting, while he was acing more like a little boy having mini temper tantrums.
It wasn't hard at all to get started with a new analyst- I just started right in, gradually filling in the details of my life as I was expressing whatever came to my mind.
You know, Witti, one of the things that's not so good about your situation is that, although he caused the difficulty by acting in a cold manner, he's not willing to talk about it. Feeling rejected by a person as important as your analyst is major, and must call up painful memories of rejections in your childhood. Now, in order to rebuild your relationship, you have to stuff those painful feelings down, because HE won't talk about them. All therapists should be willing to hear everything a patient wants to say- and to hear it hundreds of times- just as long as it's an issue. Not being able to talk about an episode as important to you as this one teaches you something you shouldn't be learning in a therapist's office- that you can't speak up and ask for decent, respectful behavior, and that people who hurt you are not required to own up to it or apologize.. Presumably, you learned that only too well as a child.
It really stood out that your pdoc asked you whether you found your analyst "too cold". These questions never come out of no-where. I'm sure that he must have at least a slight reputation for coldness, in additon to having one for being a very good analyst. Your pdoc has probably heard similiar things from other patients of his.
Posted by lucie lu on November 20, 2008, at 14:05:44
In reply to follow-up....., posted by twinleaf on November 17, 2008, at 13:19:56
Twin-Leaf,
There is little I can add to this thread other than to add a heart-felt congratulations to you on taking this big step toward closure. I have always been very impressed at how you managed to survive what happened with your capacity for attachment still intact, and remain able to make a new, healthy connection with someone who is worthy of your trust.
I wish you all the best.
Lucie
Posted by twinleaf on November 21, 2008, at 1:10:51
In reply to Re: follow-up..... » twinleaf, posted by lucie lu on November 20, 2008, at 14:05:44
Thank you, lucie. I appreciate what you said so much. To be absolutely truthful, my sense of trust was quite shaky for a long time, but the "new" analyst went way out of his way to help me feel more secure. He would suddenly say things like, "it may be hard for you to believe this, but I really do want to see you" or he would unexpectedly say, after a break for vacation, "welcome back",. What was so nice about these happenings is that they were not pre-planned- they just popped out of his mouth, and so were really genuine and heartfelt.
And too, we have spent lots of time going over every tiny feeling of insecurity. When I bring up these fears, he always says something like, "no I haven't had any feelings like that about you, but I'm very glad you can talk about them with me". If I had gotten an analyst anywhere near a "blank slate", I would be a basket case!
This is the end of the thread.
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