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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lucie lu on November 13, 2008, at 8:07:49
Like many others on Babble, themes of attachment, abandonment, and related hurts and fears have dominated my therapy too. I am not there yet, by any means, although I think progress has been made over the past few years in particular. But progress, at least for me, moves with glacial speed.
I'm not optimistic that these feelings ever truly disappear. No matter how resolved we think those feelings are, we will probably always be vulnerable to sudden piercing shafts of grief or fear, and feeling small and helpless. Our T's are trying to show us that we are neither small nor helpless. Realistic attachment goals, I think, include being able to fulfill needs within myself to reduce the perceived threat of someone important to me "abandoning" me. It means giving up the fantasy of a life-saving Other, without whom we will be lost, in exchange for feeling autonomous and held securely within my own arms. And to remember that no matter what level of internal security I am ever able to obtain, those feelings are by now probably hard-wired into my brain circuits. Healing is never really complete, and I will always be vulnerable to those circuits suddenly being lit up by some stimulus, flooding me with old feelings of fear, grief, or anger. My job is to recognize when this occurs and have ways to right myself when I capsize. And finally, to be able to become attached to someone else in a healthy way. That is why it is so important in treating attachment-related issues to allow a deep attachment to our T's. Where else can we learn it? Who else would be so patient with us, so non-threatening except for the threats and "weapons" we endow them with?
As an analogy, I think of my old high school earth science classes and how the landscape is shaped by colossal and violent forces - volcanoes, glaciers, earthquakes. Those long-ago occurrences leave features like mountains and lakes long after the forces that shaped them are no longer there. But the landscape adapts. The lake bed remains but water fills it in so it is no longer a scar but an ecosystem. The mountain, a now-dormant volcano, produces soil and streams. But sometimes, in a heavy rain, the lake floods and there are mudslides. We can't prevent them, we can just pick up the proverbial shovel afterwards.
I think I'm somewhere between the earth starting to cool but before new life forms creep onto land from the sea :)
Posted by antigua3 on November 13, 2008, at 10:14:55
In reply to rambling thoughts about attachment, posted by lucie lu on November 13, 2008, at 8:07:49
I agree w/so much of what you said in your post.
I do think the goal is to find the peace/strength w/in ourselves to withstand abandonment, etc. And looking at it from the other person's point of view. I have a tendency to think it's all about me, of course, but when I dig deeper I can now see that oftentimes it isn't about my weaknesses, faults, etc., but the situation of the other person. This was a huge step for me to take, and now I understand it better.
Also, I've never wanted someone to rescue me, or at least not cognitively. I've always vehemently rejected that for some reason. I think it's associated w/shame, that I ought to be able to stand on my own. I don't know why this is, but it's interesting for me to consider.
Your job is to recognize what's going on and to right yourself when it happens. But this doesn't happen overnight, or at least it hasn't for me. I'm much more aware now when things happen and I can right myself quicker, but I can still feel like I've been kicked in the stomach when I don't recognize quick enough what's going on. Practice, practice, practice and then it will become a learned response.
Sometimes I think about those Pavlovian dogs and wonder if w/adequate reinforcement (therapy to us), their minds would have been rewired! I believe in the rewiring theory, and that's why, to me, just "getting" it isn't enough; I have to learn it over time after the getting it.
Glad to see you posting. Hope you're feeling better.
antigua
Posted by lucie lu on November 13, 2008, at 12:25:20
In reply to Re: rambling thoughts about attachment » lucie lu, posted by antigua3 on November 13, 2008, at 10:14:55
Hi Antigua,
Good to hear from you. Yes, I am feeling better although I hope to feel better still. Thanks for asking.
Your point about how long these things take, the truly geological time-frame (to wring the metaphor) that such changes take place in, is well taken. Imagine if each series of thoughts had its own circuitry. Now imagine how many times that particular train of thought would have to be repeated to successfully rewire the circuit? Over and over and over and over....
The other thing we have to learn is tolerance. Of affect, imperfection and errors, misfortune. That hopefully we'll be able to tolerate those times that we are capsized, carried down the rapids and over a waterfall before we can right ourselves, find our oars, and paddle onwards.
I really hope you keep posting, antigua.
Lucie
Posted by antigua3 on November 13, 2008, at 14:39:57
In reply to Re: rambling thoughts about attachment » antigua3, posted by lucie lu on November 13, 2008, at 12:25:20
Posted by Suedehead on November 13, 2008, at 19:33:23
In reply to rambling thoughts about attachment, posted by lucie lu on November 13, 2008, at 8:07:49
Nice post, Lucie. I don't have much to say by way of response--just that what you wrote really resonated with me, as I'm just now beginning to recognize for the first time my own attachment/abandonment problems and attempting to work through them with my T. I'm heartened to hear of your progress, even if it has been glacial! Everything counts, right?
Posted by Phillipa on November 14, 2008, at 13:22:26
In reply to Re: rambling thoughts about attachment, posted by Suedehead on November 13, 2008, at 19:33:23
I also have horrible abandonment issues even on babble. I actually hurt when don't think a poster likes me. Isn't that ridiculous? Mind says yes emotions say no. Love Phillipa
Posted by lucie lu on November 14, 2008, at 14:09:17
In reply to Re: rambling thoughts about attachment, posted by Phillipa on November 14, 2008, at 13:22:26
> I also have horrible abandonment issues even on babble. I actually hurt when don't think a poster likes me. Isn't that ridiculous? Mind says yes emotions say no. Love Phillipa
No that's not ridiculous Phillipa. We all put ourselves out for others to see when we post, and it can hurt to feel rejected. It's very understandable, so I side here with your emotional side :) Perhaps what your mind is saying is that it's a cruel fact of life that no matter how hard we try, not everyone will like us. We do need to find ways to cope with that, to let such rejection penetrate maybe a little but not so far into our psyches that the self is damaged or threatened. Here is a healthy example of our heads taking good care of our hearts.
Love, Lucie
Posted by Phillipa on November 14, 2008, at 20:24:57
In reply to Re: rambling thoughts about attachment » Phillipa, posted by lucie lu on November 14, 2008, at 14:09:17
Thanks lucie lu seems I need work on that as usually remember the negative and forget the positive. Love Phillipa
Posted by DAisym on November 14, 2008, at 23:49:25
In reply to Re: rambling thoughts about attachment » lucie lu, posted by Phillipa on November 14, 2008, at 20:24:57
I went to a lecture today about attachment behaviors in children and their parents. We spent a lot of time on children who exhibit disorganized attachment and the narrative styles of their parents. I'm fairly sure I have a disorganized attachment style with my parents but that I have an earned-organized ambiguous attachment with my therapist.
One of things I kept thinking as I sat there was about how hard it is to achieve an earned attachment. Many of the people discuss it like it is a no brainer - like yes, we'll just get the client to become attached and it will solve all his/her problems. I was glad when the lecturer drew a map of just how hard it is to rewire the brain around this stuff. He kept saying, "it take YEARS" - I wanted to shout - "many, many YEARS!"
Posted by maysie on November 15, 2008, at 0:02:35
In reply to Re: rambling thoughts about attachment » Phillipa, posted by lucie lu on November 14, 2008, at 14:09:17
Aha, I thought I was the only one who freaked out about my posts not getting a reply. Thank you so much for sharing something I was afraid too.
Also it is so true about it taking years to feel safe about attachment. (I hope I'm understanding what you are saying.)
Posted by lucie lu on November 15, 2008, at 7:33:01
In reply to Re: rambling thoughts about attachment, posted by Suedehead on November 13, 2008, at 19:33:23
>resonated with me, as I'm just now beginning to recognize for the first time my own attachment/abandonment problems and attempting to work through them with my T.
You think a/a anxieties may be related to "performing" in sessions? I have made that connection in my own therapy. Takes a lot of effort and trust to start to work through.
>I'm heartened to hear of your progress, even if it has been glacial! Everything counts, right?
Absolutely :)
Posted by lucie lu on November 15, 2008, at 8:14:08
In reply to Re: rambling thoughts about attachment, posted by maysie on November 15, 2008, at 0:02:35
> Aha, I thought I was the only one who freaked out about my posts not getting a reply. Thank you so much for sharing something I was afraid too.
I think that it a pretty universal concern. In the Babble FAQ (General Questions), accessed through the link at the top of this board, there is a useful discussion on this point, "why doesn't anyone answer my posts?" My experience on this board has been that it is rare for a post to go completely unanswered. Most posters empathize with how that would feel. But level of response can depend upon how the post is phrased or even factors that have little or nothing to do with you. Sometimes a post really appears to have been put out there just for reading and general info rather than response. (My mother helpfully ends such emails to me with NRN - "no reply necessary"!) Still, usually even that type of post will get some acknowledgment or comment from someone, even if brief.
> Also it is so true about it taking years to feel safe about attachment. (I hope I'm understanding what you are saying.)
You are. That's why I hope you find a more empathic T :)
Lucie
Posted by muffled on November 15, 2008, at 10:17:15
In reply to Re: rambling thoughts about attachment » maysie, posted by lucie lu on November 15, 2008, at 8:14:08
VERY cool post Lucie :-) Well said. You are good at putting things into words!
I resist attach. I kinda attach w/old T, but always there some fear somehow. I trust she won't....I dunno, but I guess I don't think she would purposely hurt me, but...hmmmm. I dunno, I just resist the idea of attach I guess because it keaves one vulnerable and I not got much use for that.
I really liked how you worded bout us taking care of our own selves.
Like Antingua, for me this is a LONG slow process that requiers MUCH repitition.
My T seems to think the brain can get rewired with time.
I read this on the net http://www.sandrawieland.com/Therapy2ndChance.pdf. It talks bout how the brain develops and then concludes that new pathways can be formed.
Also this too was interesting http://www.asca.org.au/childabuse/ca_traumaaffectsbrain.html
Also Lucie mentions tolerance of affect, ANOTHER good one! and another good metaphore, manoman Lucie, you got a gift!
LOL! Daisy made me laugh when she wanted to shout MANY MANY years!!!! That lecturer seems to know her stuff!
I think I need to ask my T bout attachment, cuz I dunno much bout that. LOL, I said bout how she makes a part of me feel a wee bit safer somehow, and she said bout how some parts may get attached to her and I CRINGED. We NOT attach with this T we not gonna be attach. Funny too cuz sometimes she does stuff and I KNOW she doing it cuz she figgering attach stuff, but I not attach. Nice that she does it cuz then mebbe she competatnt and that reassuring.I agree that it is heartening that Lucie has made progress and has shared it with us. One day I should do that too, cuz it IS heartening.
Lucie, you sure are smart.
Muffled
Posted by lucie lu on November 15, 2008, at 11:22:26
In reply to Re: rambling thoughts about attachment » lucie lu, posted by muffled on November 15, 2008, at 10:17:15
Posted by lucie lu on November 15, 2008, at 12:34:49
In reply to Re: rambling thoughts about attachment » lucie lu, posted by muffled on November 15, 2008, at 10:17:15
I was thinking about the use of metaphor, which made me realize another way I think therapy has directly remodeled my brain. An important job of therapy is supposed to help us learn to put words to our feelings. That started out being very hard for me. I am very right-brained and think in pictures, which for me are more like images with visual, emotional and even sensory components, rather than words. Hence I had SOOO much trouble articulating anything early in therapy other than usual day-to-day conversation. No wonder my T fell asleep a couple of times in the early days - it was frustrating and boring for both of us! I literally had no words to describe my inner thoughts. Therapy was slow. The best I could manage for a long time, the first two years at least, was speaking in metaphors. I couldn't say what something "was" but I could often describe what it "was (or felt) like." The next two years or so, since I wrote a lot for work, I journaled to learn to access my inner thoughts and feelings. The way I did that could best be described as free associating and then looking down to see what I'd put on the paper. Sometimes I was very surprised to see what I'd written (sort of like a Ouija board!). But that exercise, together with follow-up discussions in therapy, helped me to start connecting words with my thoughts and feelings. Finally, after several years, I was increasingly able to articulate in words the sorts of things we deal with in therapy. I still have a rather rambling and often impressionistic verbal style - not at work, where the words are clear, but for self-expression. For me the clearest ideas in my head still tend to appear as images, hence the metaphors. My T is by now very practiced at understanding me, at least much of the time, and my husband, after 20+ years, thankfully is an expert :)
Anyway, I really had been thinking just the other day how in my sessions now I actually communicate mostly in words instead of my old verbal finger-painting (lol). Now it is easier, although my talk is still peppered with "what's the word I am looking for?" which has become somewhat of a game. Speaking articulately will probably always be more difficult than writing, but I think the increased verbalization skill that I have achieved may represent another concrete example of how therapy can really physically rewire the brain. I am no neurologist, but I wonder if anyone has measured whether the verbal centers of the brain change during the course of therapy? Anyone know? Daisy, any seminars on that?
Posted by JayMac on November 15, 2008, at 12:43:30
In reply to Is this another way therapy rewires brains?, posted by lucie lu on November 15, 2008, at 12:34:49
Lucie,
I've really enjoyed this thread. Thanks for starting it. I've enjoyed all the responses as well.Hugs!!!
=)
JayMac
Posted by lucie lu on November 15, 2008, at 12:54:10
In reply to Re: rambling thoughts about attachment » lucie lu, posted by muffled on November 15, 2008, at 10:17:15
> > Lucie, you sure are smart.
Not so smart. I wrote a reply to you and when I later looked at the board, there it wasn't. I must have deleted it or not sent it accidentally. You'd think I'd learn but I've done this a lot.
But thanks, Muffled, for the kind words. You are such a sweetie!
That article your first link leads to is awesome! It explains so clearly all the things we've been talking about, attachment, development, the role of environment (incl trauma and therapy) and how the brain responds to all of these. Thanks so much for posting that. It's a keeper.
About what you've said about how attachment is for you, I certainly can understand about not wanting to attach. I don't know much of your history - did you ever have a T you felt any attachment to? Your current one seems well-meaning at least. From what you were saying, seems like maybe she has trouble judging your attachment (or not) to her or how it all feels to you anyway? I think for some things, it may not be necessary to be attached to a T although it would be tough if there weren't at least some mutual liking and respect. (I wouldn't even go to the my hairdresser without that - lol!) My current T is the only one where attachment has been a big factor, but that's been important because of what the therapy has been about. Other therapies I've had in the past have been shorter term, less in-depth, and it hasn't really mattered that we weren't particularly attached.
From the way you think and the things you write, Muffled, being attached to you must be really nice :)
Lucie
Posted by lucie lu on November 15, 2008, at 12:56:33
In reply to Re: Is this another way therapy rewires brains?, posted by JayMac on November 15, 2008, at 12:43:30
> Lucie,
> I've really enjoyed this thread. Thanks for starting it. I've enjoyed all the responses as well.
>
> Hugs!!!
> =)
> JayMac
Jay,So glad to see you posting again!
Hugs to you too :)L.
Posted by Dinah on November 15, 2008, at 13:40:24
In reply to Is this another way therapy rewires brains?, posted by lucie lu on November 15, 2008, at 12:34:49
That so sounds like me!!!
In the early days I drove my therapist crazy because he'd give me an assignment to write down my emotions during the day, and all of them came back "ok" or "upset". He'd argue with me that "ok" wasn't an emotion! He gave me that chart they gave kids with simple faces and feeling words. Bah.
Then, when we finally did access the part of me that does feel, the vocabulary just wasn't there. I would say "I feel sort of periwinkle today." or "Red with black flashes" or "Spring green with a lot of red and black all swirled". I spent hours making a color chart for him, so that we could put the colors to feeling words.
Or I'd see my feelings in terms of movement. Swirls or recoils or bubbles.
Or I'd personify the feelings. The stalking panther, the frolicking fawn.
My therapist isn't all that comfortable with whimsy, I don't think. It drove him nuts.
Posted by antigua3 on November 15, 2008, at 14:39:40
In reply to Is this another way therapy rewires brains?, posted by lucie lu on November 15, 2008, at 12:34:49
Sometimes when I can't find the words, I draw a picture for my pdoc or t. I can't draw worth a damn, but it's amazing these pictures often show something I never realized or intended.
antigua
Posted by Daisym on November 15, 2008, at 20:36:31
In reply to Re: Is this another way therapy rewires brains? » lucie lu, posted by antigua3 on November 15, 2008, at 14:39:40
Ahem...clears her throat. I spent today with Dr. Daniel Siegel who wrote "The Developing Mind" and "Parenting from the Inside Out." I will try to do some justice to what he lectured on. He is an incredible speaker - very accessible and I suspect, a very good psychiatrist. I also suspect you don't want to hear all about the peptides and gabba cells...
One of the key things he talked about was how attachment allows integration between the right brain and the left brain. Our auto-biographical narrative is found in the right brain (a surprise finding) and our ability to articulate our own story in a coherent fashion is on the left brain. When we think about attachment, it is an organizing principle - we make choices in life based on our underlying attachment experiences. This is true if you are securely attached, if you are avoidantly attached and even if you are ambivalently attached. But if you have a disorganized attachment, it gets in the way of your narrative recall.
Which is probably why early in therapy for you, Lucie, you could "see" things that you couldn't articulate - because the two sides of your brain weren't integrated and there was no attachment net to hold things together. And most of us know all the linguistical rules about answering questions and turn taking so instead of leaving space to see what the right brain comes up with, we ramble on from our left brain, trying to abide by the social rules. Eventually we get comfortable with the fact that therapy has its own rules.
As we earn an attachment with our therapist, each time we can name a feeling or sensory input, we actually feel calmer by accessing the words. There is an actual chemical response. And we don't have to use our left brain to guard against intrusion of another's internal experience - the non-verbal stuff that goes both ways. So we have easier access to what the right brain is feeling - not just anxiety and disorganization.
What is also very interesting is that people who have very sensitive nervous systems can have brains that react like people who have been traumatized. It makes sense in that they are assaulted just by being in the world - not on purpose - but their wiring tells them to self-protect and shut down and all the things that people with abuse in their histories do.
One of the things I loved that we did today was talk about mindfulness and meditation. And FINALLY someone helped me understand why I hate meditation. As much as I know it helps, and I've read the research, I struggle with how awful I feel when I try to do it. Dr. Siegel said that when you have unresolved trauma and grief (GRIEF is a huge brain issue, not just trauma) - beginning meditation stimulates the same areas of the brain that get stimulated when you have flashbacks. So for some of us, it is not useful until you work through things - it is very scary and causes more harm than good. He advocated teaching safety techniques, like the room in the brain idea, before trying meditation.
I'm sure there is a lot more, but it was really fascinating. And he emphasized over and over again that while there are two parts of the brain, they do usually integrate and we can't just assign one thing to one area without wondering what is happening in another area. The example he used was that when the left brain ampts up, the right brain ampts down - usually. So we can't say a technique ampts down our emotions, when it may in fact "only" amp up our organizing schemas. There aren't always direct correlations from activity to brain response.
And Dinah - don't tell Rod. But he talked about the "brain in the stomach" - essentially the nervous system network around the intestines and heart that inform us - intuition we call it.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on November 15, 2008, at 22:53:26
In reply to Re: Is this another way therapy rewires brains?, posted by Daisym on November 15, 2008, at 20:36:31
Lucie Lu,
Thanks so much for this thread. I feel buried in my attachment issues with my T right now and it's so great to read the discussion here.Daisym,
Your post from the Dr. Daniel Siegel lecture was awesome. Things I know nothing about and seem so compelling - like they would be helpful for me to know more. I appreciate your taking so much time to share your summary. I'm not sure if it relates, but it was the strongest thought that came to me after reading it - I recall so much about my life in terms of emotions and pictures, but I often can't put things in order and I even have lots of confusion about what has happened with who and when. I want to know more, but I've kind of been told reading about therapy is off limits for me right now. I guess I have been overwhelming myself lately...Anyway, thanks to you both.
FMD
Posted by Dinah on November 17, 2008, at 17:46:53
In reply to Re: Is this another way therapy rewires brains?, posted by Daisym on November 15, 2008, at 20:36:31
> What is also very interesting is that people who have very sensitive nervous systems can have brains that react like people who have been traumatized. It makes sense in that they are assaulted just by being in the world - not on purpose - but their wiring tells them to self-protect and shut down and all the things that people with abuse in their histories do.
That's really interesting, Daisy. Thank you for posting it. My therapist never pushed me to believe I'd been abused. But he was always clearly perplexed by the fact that the set of problems I have are generally associated with a history of abuse. While I've always thought that my overly sensitive nervous system, perhaps coupled with a couple of rather explosive and unpredictable parents, was more than enough on its own. Hence my constant references to a nervous system like an overly inbred cocker spaniel (no offense to cockers, it could be any dog) as my main presenting problem.
But I shouldn't expect him to understand. He has the nervous system of a particularly phlegmatic Newfie. That's why he's such a darn good fit for me.
My emotional/rational split has often seemed to me to be way more a left brain/right brain split than an age related one. While my therapist sees my emotional self as younger than my actual age, and refers to my difficulties with the other therapists as coming from the disconnect between the age of the person they see and the age of the person they hear. Or something like that. I tend to see it more in terms of, well, emotional/rational. When I first gained access to that part of me, and even when I really immerse myself in it now, words are very hard for me. It almost seems like I need the words to be provided to me when I'm in that place, by my rational self. So that if it's something I haven't thought about before in words, the words just aren't there. I'm reduced to gestures and garbled words.
> And Dinah - don't tell Rod. But he talked about the "brain in the stomach" - essentially the nervous system network around the intestines and heart that inform us - intuition we call it.
I never thought of my intuition as being located in my gut. Despite the common description. I think I'd describe it more as a skin feeling. :)
Still, I'm well aware (unfortunately) of the nervous system network around the intestines.
Posted by lucie lu on November 17, 2008, at 21:54:14
In reply to Re: Is this another way therapy rewires brains?, posted by Dinah on November 17, 2008, at 17:46:53
Daisy, awesome post! Somehow I knew you'd come through with something wonderful on this topic. But that was so on target.
It's funny that you mentioned the "sensitive" bit because my T and I have talked a lot about how things like temperament affect responses to the environment. He has painted scenarios like (I am paraphrasing), "imagine a sensitive, high-energy, empathic and emotionally intense child. She may need more than the usual active parenting - guidance, empathy, understanding, help with learning to handle her strong emotions, numerous sensitivities, and high activity level. Such a child will be especially devastated by caregivers who are unable e.g. due to substance abuse, to connect with her and give her the help she needs. This child may also experience considerable distress simply from the emotional tone or atmosphere (e.g. sensing general unhappiness of family members) of a dysfunctional home than another, less sensitive, child would. The high-sensitivity child is at greater risk for traumatization, even by relatively lower levels of stress, because of the magnified effect stress has on her developing nervous system. He has emphasized on numerous occasions that while events of the past undeniably do matter, they can take a back seat to how a given child perceived them, e.g. emotional response, at the time. And that's where temperament comes in, because the effect of such stress on the highly-sensitive brain can rewire it similarly to that associated with more severe trauma in another.
Posted by lucie lu on November 17, 2008, at 22:35:01
In reply to Re: Is this another way therapy rewires brains? » Dinah, posted by lucie lu on November 17, 2008, at 21:54:14
This is the end of the thread.
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