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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lucie lu on September 29, 2008, at 18:33:07
This question has really been bothering me lately.
I have read in many places that idealization of ones T can serve various functions, e.g. to avoid feeling angry. There must be others, although thats the one thats usually cited. I dont like the phrase idealization (applied to my relationship with my T) but I do feel a type of love for him warmth, trust, gratitude, caring etc. Is that idealization? Maybe Im being too literal about the term. I know that many on this board also have loving feelings for their Ts. Do you consider those warm feelings idealization? Are you aware of anything lurking underneath those feelings?
I am confused about these concepts.
Thanks, Lucie
Posted by Looney Tunes on September 29, 2008, at 19:24:12
In reply to What lurks underneath idealization?, posted by lucie lu on September 29, 2008, at 18:33:07
Hmm. I was just thinking about this also, but my idealization takes the form of me telling T that he is smart and highly intelligent, etc.
Am I masking anger? No, I think I am masking my low self-esteem. Because by idealizing him, I can never be anything, just a piece of crap. My idealization keeps me where I am used to being.
Now, I don't know if I would consider "loving feelings" idealization, unless something is tied to those loving feelings like "you are the most wonderful T, you understand me like no one else." This would be idealization.... masked with loving feelings.
But saying that you "care about your T,"...I would not consider that idealization. That is a true feeling.
Just my thoughts ......
Posted by lemonaide on September 29, 2008, at 19:25:41
In reply to What lurks underneath idealization?, posted by lucie lu on September 29, 2008, at 18:33:07
I think to me what lurks under idealization is misjudgement by myself. Usually idealization is the believe the a person is better than they really are, and the faults are something one doesn't see in that person.
I truly believe it is possible to not idealize your therapist and still have genuine feelings for them and to see them for who they really are. Well I am not probably saying this right how I mean. But if you are feeling good about your therapist, it doesn't necessarily mean you are idealization them. Most T's don't want to be put on a pedistal because eventually it will crumble.
Posted by JayJ on September 29, 2008, at 20:33:28
In reply to Re: What lurks underneath idealization? » lucie lu, posted by lemonaide on September 29, 2008, at 19:25:41
Maybe I'm being a bit dense (nothing unusual there) but isn't the whole arrangement an idealization. If things go as they should, we have in our T someone who is only interested in our welfare, without bringing in their own problems. If that's not ideal, I don't know what is :) Depending on our individual background/problem, I guess we each put into this person what we most wish for, in my case, having a problem childhood, I see some kind of ideal parent I never had, although this can get blurred over into a partner who also cares about my every concern/need (blush). I love it :) Yes, it's unreal. If I think about it, I know my T cannot be such a person in real life - I'm sure he does care about me, but nobody can really do the whole deal for just me all day every day. Especially since I know he must turn around and do the same thing for the other 10 or more patients that I know he must have, and almost certainly be just as good and caring with them. But, if I let myself suspend reality, the idealization lets me work with him to rebuild or maybe build for the first time - I hope. Maybe I haven't been at this long enough or perhaps I'm missing something important?
JayJ
Posted by Sigismund on September 29, 2008, at 22:52:12
In reply to What lurks underneath idealization?, posted by lucie lu on September 29, 2008, at 18:33:07
Idealisation is connected with love, is it not?
Is it separable from love?
I dunno.
Posted by sunnydays on September 30, 2008, at 10:23:40
In reply to What lurks underneath idealization?, posted by lucie lu on September 29, 2008, at 18:33:07
Idealization to me is seeing someone as unrealistically perfect, not having loving feelings for them. I tend to do this sometimes when I am angry at him - I 'switch' somehow because I get scared and become convinced he's the most perfect person when really he's just another human being. So that's what I think is the difference.
sunnydays
Posted by onceupon on September 30, 2008, at 10:29:58
In reply to What lurks underneath idealization?, posted by lucie lu on September 29, 2008, at 18:33:07
I think I defensively idealize my therapist. Even though I sometimes feel like I'm dying with curiosity about what her inner life is like, including her life with her family, I don't really ask about it. I know she wouldn't necessarily tell me much, but I also don't know how much I really want to know. Right now it's easier for me to idealize her, because it allows me to hold onto the fantasy of receiving some kind of perfect mothering from her.
Do I realize the somewhat screwed up nature of this? Yes. But not enough yet to do something about it. So I guess for me, idealization covers up my unwillingness to let go of that fantasy. Hope that makes sense.
Posted by lucie lu on October 1, 2008, at 9:13:05
In reply to What lurks underneath idealization?, posted by lucie lu on September 29, 2008, at 18:33:07
Thanks, all. Your posts seemed to reflect such a cross-spectrum that it helped clarify the issue for me. I think my conclusion is that there is something that can be considered idealization that doesn't reflect the real person. I vaguely remember feelings like that early on in therapy, but they blended gradually into more realistic loving feelings later on. These were based on our mutual experiences and my growing sense of who my T is. And perhaps once I started feeling less inconsequential in general, I may have idealized less and been able to experience more reality-based feelings for someone who had helped me so much.
And while I think that many books do differentiate idealization as a separate feeling, it seems to me that the term idealization is sometimes just used as a euphemism for therapeutic love. Sigi, you have a point because I think the feelings do blend together - after all, don't we all tend to idealize to some extent the people that we love?
Thanks for all of your candid and insightful posts.
Lucie
Posted by Nadezda on October 4, 2008, at 11:53:05
In reply to What lurks underneath idealization?, posted by lucie lu on September 29, 2008, at 18:33:07
Some kinds of idealization seem perfectly reasonable (I use the word advisedly) and useful: when we love someone, we probably idealize them, but this is valuable and can inspire poetry, joy, or excitement that is otherwise missing. Idealizing someone to the point where it diverges too far from how the person is become harmful because it makes us vulnerable to their misjudgments and hurtful actions. Especially since people ofoten blame themselves (since the other person carries all the 'good' and we carry the 'bad) or minimize the hamr, or even believe that they're misperceiving what's gone on, thus perpetuating the situation.
I suppose idealization can protect people then from angry or negative feelings, because these feelings are instead turned against onself, keeping the connection to others (or the particular other who's the object of this) free from ambivalence or any doubt.
But in lots of ways, idealization is how people make the world come alive. "Reality" otherwise could be a cold or indifferent place, where unless strangers made extraordinary efforts to elicit a response (which people tend not to do, mostly, at least in my experience) one is left detached, sensing nothing but distant, empty gestures. So while there are lots of stances, including a more "objective" and sober view of life, a somewhat idealized vision of things--but one that admits ambivalence and uncertainty, too-- strikes me (perhaps somewhat wrongly) as a more workable one than the more than the more definitely pessimistic view that I personally have.
Nadezda
Posted by lucie lu on October 5, 2008, at 21:16:15
In reply to Re: What lurks underneath idealization? » lucie lu, posted by Nadezda on October 4, 2008, at 11:53:05
Nadezda,
You make a good point and express it beautifully. We humans do like to idealize. Sometimes it's to our detriment, as in elevating someone else at your own expense or to avoid seeing them as they are. But idealizing important people in our lives certainly can put a sparkle into those relationships and make life a little warmer and more exciting.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Lucie
p.s. for a self-professed pessimist, you have some lovely thoughts! :)
This is the end of the thread.
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