![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 33. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
Look at yourselves! You are engaging in a self-reinforcing circle of weirdness. Going Postal because a therapist's wife comes to his office? Well, duh!? She's his wife! Finding out where they live!? Driving around the block? What their wives look like?! What kind of house they live in!? Why should you care? That's their business.
Seems to me a psychologist should be an enabler of growth that is totally apart from him. You get what you need from the guy. Then you thank him, shake his hand and move on. Instead, I read all of this strange dialog in which the relationship becomes an end in of itself, rather than a mechanism to healthy independence.
Whoever moderates this forum should step back and take stock. This is SUPPOSED to be a general PSYCHOLOLGY forum in which people trade ideas about WHAT WORKS so that the members can mutually advance to physical health and psychological and spiritual happiness.
This whole thing is so dysfunctional because it is so unbounded in its obsession with therapist relationships, not personal growth.
Man...
-H
Go ahead suspend me. Only I'm the only rational one here the offers you people something positive beyond stupid mal-adaptive obsessions. Ah, you just aren't getting it done. And you know what? You don't wanna get it done! You'd rather kvetch till the cows come home, than invest in the real effort to step up and out and make life happen for real.
Posted by Deputy Dinah on August 10, 2008, at 21:50:06
In reply to This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
> Look at yourselves! You are engaging in a self-reinforcing circle of weirdness.
You've been asked before not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
Your previous block was for two weeks, and applying the formula, I'm going to block you from posting for four weeks.
Dr. Bob has oversight over all deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by stellabystarlight on August 10, 2008, at 22:27:50
In reply to This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
Hey Hermitian,
Sorry you got suspended. Even though you included my posts in the "circle of weirdness"...LOL, I personally find your takes on things refreshing and spot-on at times.
However, I don't think anyone here is going "postal". I dont' want to speak for anyone else, but why I care is because this therapy process is so much about transference and why I do these "things" is part of the reason why I'm seeing a therapist in the first place. I'm working on all this "weirdness", but I do slip on occasion. I do want to "get it done"...but finding it very hard...but trying anyway.
I have to agree with a lot of what you say and appreciate your bluntness.
Hope you come back to the board after the suspension. Always enjoy your posts and get much from your opinions!
BTW, I ordered "the emotional toolkit" and Krisco's "conversation" book you recommended.stellabystarlight
Posted by wishingstar on August 11, 2008, at 12:33:48
In reply to Re: This Whole Forum is Nuts! » Hermitian, posted by stellabystarlight on August 10, 2008, at 22:27:50
I hope it's okay for me to respond to this, even though it was considered uncivil. I want to respond briefly because I'm sure there are others on this site (people who post and those who dont too) who agree, completely or in part, with your feelings.
There are schools of thought in psychology/psychotherapy that place the highest value on the therapeutic relationship, above everything else. Of course there are also schools of thought that strongly disagree with this and believe that relationship is not important at all and it's really all about technique (or something else). What my opinion is doesnt really matter, I just want to make the point that while some may not agree, many professionals who are published and quite well respected in the field do value the relationship highly, as most of the posters on this board seem to. It's not without value and there is substantial research backing the idea that it is important. Now, of course that doesnt mean that everything a client could potentially do, even in the name of "the relationship", is healthy for either party, appropriate, etc. I wont draw judgment on what's described on the boards, but I think everyone could agree that both healthy and unhealthy things do get posted sometimes. I dont think a poster posting something that is "unhealthy" (says who?) needs to be condemned or ridiculed for whatever they may have done that seems "wrong" (again, very subjective). Maybe they need help seeing why their behavior is inappropriate, or help understand what is driving them to act in a certain way so they can curb the behavior, or maybe they just need support and understanding, especially if the inappropriate stuff (hypothetical) is already being worked on and discussed openly in therapy. Like the old saying about accepting the person without accepting their behavior. Sure, I dont agree with everything everyone has posted on this board, but I dont think it makes them crazy. Everyone here has difference experiences in life, is at a different stage in their recovery from different issues... it's just impossible to know everything about what's really going on behind a post unless you truly know the person very well. It might not be ideal, but it's a process. If everyone had it all figured out, none of us would be in therapy.
Posted by Tabitha on August 11, 2008, at 13:41:51
In reply to Re: This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by wishingstar on August 11, 2008, at 12:33:48
Sometimes this board does make me wonder about the value of therapy. So many people seem to get stuck in a painful obsession with the therapist, and we don't see many reports of that transitioning to some kind of healing. But I hope it's like the meds board-- folks are more likely to post when things aren't working than when they are.
Posted by Maria01 on August 11, 2008, at 15:18:12
In reply to This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
I'd like to add my .02. I don't post here very often.
I have to agree with what some of has been said. I guess it's because I see things a bit differently.....I'm not a "patient" of my T, I'm one of her "clients". I don't have an illness. Having worked in the medical/veterinary fields, the term "patient" has a whole different connotation to me. I know a lot about my T, and I'm fine with it. If I were to bump into her outside of the office, that would be OK. What works for me may not work for other people. I see my T as a fellow human being. that works for me. Your milage may vary.I guess what it boils down to is finding the right thing that works for us individually, and in finding the right T who will help us best address and move on from our concerns. That means different things to different people.
What I do have trouble with is the quickness in which dissenting opinions on this board are labled as "hurtful" or "causing someone to feel put down" when they are in fact just dissenting opinions. That is one of the factors that lead to my not posting here too often. My opinions can differ quite a lot from what I've seen on this board. Opinions are just that...opinions..however they are expressed. Sure, the OP could have chosen their words a bit more carefully, but there is some merit to the message.
The internet is an open, public forum, and things can get out of hand at times. The best choice to make under those circumstances is to walk away and take some time away for a bit.
Posted by Deputy Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 15:28:54
In reply to Re: This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Maria01 on August 11, 2008, at 15:18:12
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20080719/msgs/845538.html
Here's a link.
Also, please remember to change the subject line, when the subject line has been deemed uncivil.
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 15:59:30
In reply to Re: This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Tabitha on August 11, 2008, at 13:41:51
Well, there's you... :)
Seriously, when I was questioning the value of therapy, I'd see your posts, and Noa's posts, and the posts of other thoroughly therapized people, and I'd be so impressed. There was a wisdom and acceptance that I wanted to gain myself.
I think in a lot of cases, as people stop obsessing, they also stop posting. They do move on, and maybe the board even helps them move on. They just don't post anymore. Think about the regular posters from a few years back. Some are no longer in therapy, having graduated more or less. Others have reached a peace in their therapy.
In some ways, I think this board is relatively sensible and realistic about the relationship. No one is encouraged to think that therapy can be more than it is. Everyone is encouraged to speak candidly and openly to their therapist. My therapy has been helped immensely as I was able to bring in "hypotheticals" from the board that touched on my own issues.
But there may also be the normalization of what is probably the more intense feelings towards therapy and therapists. This may put off those who have a different view of therapy. The topic has come up before, and I would hope that if people who have that point of view post their own experiences, that the board is big enough to allow all sorts of conversations to be going on at once.
But maybe that's idealistic of me. Certainly I understand the feeling that one is a minority on Babble and that one's views may not be appreciated. That's why I don't post much on Politics.
I think it's just a question of gaining critical mass. If enough people posted about their CBT therapy and CBT efforts and less intense therapy relationships, more would post and eventually they'd feel as comfortable as those who have a more relation-based therapy. Hopefully those who preferred each type of therapy would be respectful of the choices of those who choose other types.
I don't see why it can't be so.
I suppose there's also the fact that people have these feelings with or without this board. A lot of them find this place by googling being in love with therapist or hating therapy or something like that. Hopefully the board is like "In Session" in that it helps people make sense of already existing feelings.
All a bit off topic perhaps...
I guess there's also some question about what obsession means. I obsess about everything, I think. You should have seen me shopping for school supplies. But my therapy has for the most part settled into a comfortable relationship, except those times my therapist is in turmoil. I don't anticipate it ending. My therapist is an important leg on my support stool. Because of therapy, I'm able to function as well as I can. It's like Risperdal, but with fewer side effects. I guess that could be seen as pathological by some, to be so dependent. But on a day to day basis, it's more helpful than not.
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 16:01:02
In reply to The Board » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 15:59:30
The above is of course just my own musings, and I do not mean it to be "the truth". And I hope I was respectful of the views of all. If I've offended anyone, I apologize.
Posted by fleeting flutterby on August 11, 2008, at 16:25:00
In reply to This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
> Seems to me a psychologist should be an enabler of growth that is totally apart from him. You get what you need from the guy. Then you thank him, shake his hand and move on. Instead, I read all of this strange dialog in which the relationship becomes an end in of itself, rather than a mechanism to healthy independence.
>
> This whole thing is so dysfunctional because it is so unbounded in its obsession with therapist relationships, not personal growth.
>
> Man...
>
> -H
>
-----While I understand and relate to some of your upset..... it's good to keep in mind that we all come from different places mentally. Some people maybe never had anyone care about them their whole life(I know I sure didn't) and aren't at a place where they can give that care to themselves.... like a young child with a caregiver --they may live and breathe this feeling and this person.... it feels safe and they finally feel cared about.It does concern me though, when a person continues this behavior long term.... I think the focus may become more about an obession than working on what one came to therapy for originally. There have been times in previous therapy where I have had to stop and ask myself- "Wait a minute, what did I originally come here for?"......
I get upset when my perception is that someone is stuck and been with the same therapist for 2+ years and aren't making progress, even seemingly getting worse.... it feels to me that the therapist is taking advantage of a person like this and I am a "fighter" for the wronged.... so my triggers take hold and anxiety goes up and I either have to quit reading or leave competely as I fear I'll say somehting that will be misunderstood and then "I'll" be the bad one!!I know of someone that has been in therapy for almost 3 years with the same therapist and all she focuses on now is THAT relationship. She cuts herself for thinking sexually about him as she feels guilty about it-- so how is this therapy helping her? I don't see it ...... I tried to switch her focus on to the things she wanted to work on in the first place, but then I got chewed out for it. She has never had a problem with males anyway..... always females, so I'd think she would be better off working with a female and mending those dysfunctional mindsets, rather than playing soap-opera with her current T. (BTW-- this is not about anyone here at psychobabble, and I'm not saying anyone here is playing "soap-opera", not at all.)
hope I didn't violate any guidelines-- yikes!... kind of scared to push "submit".....
a nervous.... flutterby-mandy
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 16:44:56
In reply to Re: everyone's different....... » Hermitian, posted by fleeting flutterby on August 11, 2008, at 16:25:00
Maybe the problem isn't that she's thinking about her therapist but that that she's feeling guilty about the thoughts?
Part of how therapy can help is to teach people to accept that their thoughts and feelings aren't good or bad. They just are.
Her answer may not come from ceasing to desire her therapist. Her answer may come from accepting that she desires her therapist, accepting that that desire doesn't change the facts of the situation, and accepting that she can desire her therapist and have a good life. Learning to accept that can help her learn to accept many things, feelings and situations. If her response to feeling intense emotions is to hurt herself, the answer might not be to stop feeling the intense emotions, but to learn to live with them? Unless this is the only area in her life where she feels intense emotions.
I didn't even start therapy with my therapist for five years, except that I learned to trust him. In those five years, I probably obsessed a whole lot. I probably acted out a whole lot. I got much worse. My world was being shaken up. I was seeing what I was doing with my life. My therapist was pointing out that the sky was not blue, and clouds were not white.
Everyone is different. Some people may not enter therapy in the same place I did. Some people may not react in the same way I did. But for me, this process was necessary. It had taken me thirty odd years to build up the problems. It took a while to take it apart and put it back together again.
Posted by Phillipa on August 11, 2008, at 17:04:38
In reply to Re: everyone's different....... » fleeting flutterby, posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 16:44:56
Dinah says a whole lot. Now you guys know I have no therapist but visit this board to learn. There was a time when CBT was going to be discussed if not mistaken. I just never fell in love with a therapist as most were female. Not condemming anyone. Will check the link to admin. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 17:53:57
In reply to Re: everyone's different....... » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on August 11, 2008, at 17:04:38
Of course, *all* that being said, I have my doubts about therapy too. The whole structure is set up in such a way that it could cause a lot of harm, as well as being a means of accomplishing something good. I hear things about therapists that make me really wonder. A lot. I don't think anyone could read the board here regularly and not realize the potential for pain.
*But* I wouldn't blame the clients for being obsessed or for feeling attachment. *Even if* a particular client likes drama in relationships, surely that is an issue that needs to be addressed in a therapeutic and not blaming way. Moreover, I don't think it would be at all possible to say that clients in a dramatic therapy relationship like drama in their relationships, or don't want to move on, or are focusing on that instead of getting better.
I was a person who was the most pragmatic soul alive in relationships. I never fell in love with someone out of my league. I never fell in love with someone who wouldn't make an appropriate life mate. My decisions to date, my decision to marry, my decision to have a child, were all well thought out and totally rational, in their own limited way. I was also rational, limited, and totally neurotic in other ways.
It was my relationship with my therapist that threw me out of my nice sensible relationship standards. It was my relationship with my therapist that transcended my limits. Because my attachment to my therapist was irrational, totally overvalued, and in its own way unhealthy, I was able to relate to others in a way I never could have related before. Except maybe to my dogs.
It is so hard to describe. And maybe impossible to understand. And I suppose that's ok. I don't need other people to understand.
Dang. I'm making it sound like I think therapy is good again. While the truth is that I do see that it can be harmful. I wish they'd tighten those standards, although maybe the problem can also be a mismatch between client and therapist. Like with some parent/children combinations. Haven't they discovered that in addition to good parents and bad parents, there are good matches and bad matches?
Too many bad therapists and/or bad matches out there.
Posted by Lemonaide on August 11, 2008, at 18:01:24
In reply to This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
Well for one, not to get blocked over this thread! lol So, I think there must be some positiveness here because I have certainly improved somewhat.
Posted by Sigismund on August 11, 2008, at 19:51:31
In reply to One thing I have learned from this site!, posted by Lemonaide on August 11, 2008, at 18:01:24
Hey, me neither.
It's certainly interesting though.
Posted by no_rose_garden on August 12, 2008, at 13:15:50
In reply to Re: One thing I have learned from this site! » Lemonaide, posted by Sigismund on August 11, 2008, at 19:51:31
Therapy is a totally different kind of relationship. It's so close, but you're not "allowed" to know anything about the other person. That's really not the way human nature works, i think. Also, not being allowed to know something makes it even more appealing to know...when somebody tells you not to do something....even when we're little...we really want to do it.
...just a thought...
Posted by fleeting flutterby on August 14, 2008, at 14:06:50
In reply to just a thought, posted by no_rose_garden on August 12, 2008, at 13:15:50
> Therapy is a totally different kind of relationship. It's so close, but you're not "allowed" to know anything about the other person. That's really not the way human nature works, i think. Also, not being allowed to know something makes it even more appealing to know...when somebody tells you not to do something....even when we're little...we really want to do it.
>
> ...just a thought...<<
---- been thinking about this. I think you make some very good points.I think though it might be more FEMALE human nature that struggles with this than males do(not that I mean to make this a gender issue-- but afterall men and women do deal with relationships differently).
I've often wondered why most posts about "attachment", "obession" or whatever one wants to call it-- with the therapist, is almost always written by a female.
I wonder if there's ever been a consideration of administering therapy in regards to "female nature" and "male nature" --types of developing with the therapist/client relationship??
Would therapy as we know it NOT even exist and be totally different if women would have been the founders of it? I wonder........
flutterby-mandy
Posted by fleeting flutterby on August 14, 2008, at 14:25:17
In reply to Re: everyone's different....... » fleeting flutterby, posted by Dinah on August 11, 2008, at 16:44:56
> Maybe the problem isn't that she's thinking about her therapist but that that she's feeling guilty about the thoughts?
>
> Part of how therapy can help is to teach people to accept that their thoughts and feelings aren't good or bad. They just are.
>
> Her answer may not come from ceasing to desire her therapist. Her answer may come from accepting that she desires her therapist, accepting that that desire doesn't change the facts of the situation, and accepting that she can desire her therapist and have a good life. Learning to accept that can help her learn to accept many things, feelings and situations. If her response to feeling intense emotions is to hurt herself, the answer might not be to stop feeling the intense emotions, but to learn to live with them? Unless this is the only area in her life where she feels intense emotions.
>
> I didn't even start therapy with my therapist for five years, except that I learned to trust him. In those five years, I probably obsessed a whole lot. I probably acted out a whole lot. I got much worse. My world was being shaken up. I was seeing what I was doing with my life. My therapist was pointing out that the sky was not blue, and clouds were not white.
>
> Everyone is different. Some people may not enter therapy in the same place I did. Some people may not react in the same way I did. But for me, this process was necessary. It had taken me thirty odd years to build up the problems. It took a while to take it apart and put it back together again.<<----sorry Dinah, it took me awhile to reply. I had to take some time to read and re-read this.... you are so very insightful and wise.(again, I hope you don't mind me saying so)
What you wrote makes much sense in regards to my acquintance. Here I'd thought if she just had a female therapist like I do, then she could maybe better progress-- but I guess it's all in what struggles one is trying to deal with.....
thank you for explaining this.
wishing you peace and comfort
flutteby-mandy
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2008, at 20:22:36
In reply to Re: everyone's different....... » Dinah, posted by fleeting flutterby on August 14, 2008, at 14:25:17
It may be true that she'd make better progress with a female therapist.
It really does depend on what issues she's working on. And of course, how skilled her therapist is with working with her on those issues.
Thanks, Mandy.
Posted by Daisym on August 14, 2008, at 23:05:18
In reply to Re: everyone's different....... » fleeting flutterby, posted by Dinah on August 14, 2008, at 20:22:36
There are many, many studies that show how different therapy is now, as compared to pre-1970. Women have started to dominate the field, which for so long was a male profession. And the idea that women think differently and embrace different ways of knowing has been (mostly) incorporated into best-practice models these days. The relationship for women is really different, not that men don't get attached to their therapists.
I'll see if I can hunt up an article or two.
Posted by Sigismund on August 15, 2008, at 2:49:52
In reply to Feminist Therapy, posted by Daisym on August 14, 2008, at 23:05:18
I dunno about feminist therapy but Frieda Fromm Reichmann was a famous therapist of the war period.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frieda_Fromm-Reichmann
It's quite possible I just like her name.
But for some reason I associate her with Harry Stack Sullivan. Another good name. Who had some interestinmg ideas that came from his homosexuality.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Stack_Sullivan
My T was a woman, and I'm glad of that.
Posted by Sigismund on August 15, 2008, at 2:51:49
In reply to Re: Feminist Therapy » Daisym, posted by Sigismund on August 15, 2008, at 2:49:52
This.............
"He made his reputation based on his experimental treatment ward for schizophrenics at the Sheppard Pratt Hospital, between 1925-29. He employed specially trained ward attendants to work with the patients to provide them with the peer relationships he believed they'd missed out on during the latency period of development. Doctors, nurses and other authority figures were banned from the ward. He believed there was a homosexual element to latency age peer relationships and that a failure to go through this stage led to self-loathing, a withdrawal from the world in fantasy and psychosis, and a failure to move on to heterosexual adjustment. Thus the patients, who were all young male homosexuals as well as schizophrenics, in their positive interactions with the attendants, also young male homosexuals, would heal the wounds from missing male intimacy as pre-adolescents."
I was impressed.
Posted by Sigismund on August 15, 2008, at 2:53:19
In reply to Re: Feminist Therapy, posted by Sigismund on August 15, 2008, at 2:51:49
>would heal the wounds from missing male intimacy as pre-adolescents
Emphasis added.
Posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 11:45:19
In reply to This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
It takes a lot to get through real mental illness.
You have no understanding of what mental illness really is, you have a very rational mind with very little desire to delve deeply into the issues. You reach conclusions quickly and often have much to feel sorry for .. although sometimes later, rather than sooner.
Good luck to you.
Posted by susan47 on August 23, 2008, at 11:55:42
In reply to This Whole Forum is Nuts!, posted by Hermitian on August 10, 2008, at 21:33:03
How does it feel to be psychoanalyzed so quickly and incorrectly? Or was some of it correct? Who will ever knoww?
Who were you judging?
Was it yourself?
Which aspect of yourself would it be, now?
Honey? Hello, anyone out there?
I suppose it's only fair to suspend me, too, now.
I have been Disrespectful of the disrespectful.
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