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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by raisinb on April 30, 2008, at 13:34:44
My therapist and I had an interesting disagreement yesterday. I was talking about feeling completely pointless, like everything I do has no meaning. She said, "why can't *you* be the point?"
I said that nobody just lives for themselves, that there's little meaning in that, that you have to be connected to something beyond yourself and make a difference, otherwise you don't have much of a purpose. Part of my depression is feeling like there is nothing like that in my life.
She said that once you feel *you* have a point, that you are worth something, then what you do has meaning.
This is a new--strange--idea to me. I started wondering, if I asked twenty people what they live for, I'd get a variety of answers, but would anyone say "I live for myself?" If they do, does that make them healthy? Or shallow?
I guess on the one hand I can see her point. On the other I can't imagine feeling like I alone am worth a life dedicated to me.
Thoughts?
Posted by muffled on April 30, 2008, at 15:24:47
In reply to living for yourself, posted by raisinb on April 30, 2008, at 13:34:44
I try and take care of myself so i can be useful.
In my case, as mother, I not so good as wife. hell I not good at either.
But I do volunteer stuff too.
I try and contribute somehow to this world.
Thats what I thot of anyhow...
M
Posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2008, at 17:01:25
In reply to Re: living for yourself, posted by muffled on April 30, 2008, at 15:24:47
Muffled what kind of volunteer stuff and you're a great mom. I live for others always have. Need to live for me though Don't think it is selfish at all. Love Phillipa
Posted by rskontos on April 30, 2008, at 17:16:15
In reply to living for yourself, posted by raisinb on April 30, 2008, at 13:34:44
raisinb,
this is an interesting thought. And I think, imho, that one should live for one's self because ultimately all the roles we could chose for ourselves could crumble at any given point, mother, wife, career and then were would one be? Without an identity. I just read Maria Shiver's book, Just Who Will You Be? and I think this is her main point that without being someone defined by you first and the other roles after that you aren't really living for yourself and it can wind up being hollow in the end
this is what happened to me when my daughter let for college
i had to try and redefine myself
two years later i am still trying
not doing so well
still stumbling
i am like maria shiver says a work in progress
she finds merit in that
i am trying
so i am trying too to be the defining point in my own life
it is tough
rsk
Posted by I need a hug on April 30, 2008, at 19:46:52
In reply to living for yourself, posted by raisinb on April 30, 2008, at 13:34:44
raisinb,
I'm not sure how old you are or what your level of education is or if you work but here are my thoughts. I agree with all of the above posters. They are all mothers but as hard as any mother tries there has not to my knowledge been a perfect mother yet. But I'm sure, they all love their kids as much as is humanly possible. RSK is still trying to re-define herself 2 years after her daughter left for college. Philippa took care of and nurtured people as a nurse (if I'm not mistaken) and is also a mother. Muffled is a mom and she volunteers. My point is sometimes you can define yourself by what you do and that, in turn, will make your life much more meaningful. The best advice I can give you is to volunteer. Not just anywhere. Volunteer where you are working with people. Visit an elderly person in a home who has no one to vist them. There's a program where I live called "Adopt a Grandparent." Be a "BIG SISTER." Work with mentally/physically challenged kids. Volunteer at an animal shelter. I don't know if you work or not but some of these could be jobs rather than voulunteer positions. These a just a few things off the top of my head but I can tell you this: I have worked in jobs where I have worked with just 5or6 people, several people and people like the ones I have mentioned above. The ones that told me the most about who I am and what I wanted to do were the ones I suggested to you. They were also the most rewarding. Hope this helps a little. HUGS
P.S. Don't be surprised if you get some answers like, "I live for chocolate or I live for weekends."
Posted by DAisym on April 30, 2008, at 20:51:54
In reply to Re: living for yourself, posted by I need a hug on April 30, 2008, at 19:46:52
I guess it might be semantics but I'd say that being yourself is different than living for yourself. And the same goes with self-worth. I struggle all the time with the concept that I matter because I breathe, not because of the things I do. But the things I do matter, because I choose to do them. And some of these things are trivial - like buying shoes - but they matter because they make me happy. And some are more important - like taking care of my children or doing my best at my job. Or voting. And I think if we live doing pretty much what we want to do, because it makes us happy (and yes, making other people happy can make us happy) than that is the point. You don't have to solve world hunger or save children for your activities to be deemed important.
I think we often get hung up on how big of a splash our pebble makes in the pond of life. But if we can remember that the ripples touch many things, and often unexpected things, then who are we to say that we haven't made a difference? So our being here - just living - is the point.
Philosophically, I really get this. In practice, I'm terrified to stop doing the "right" things or the "nice" things, because then I'm afraid I won't matter anymore, to any one. It is a frequent topic of therapy - am I more than what I can do for you?
Posted by raisinb on May 1, 2008, at 8:28:19
In reply to living for yourself, posted by raisinb on April 30, 2008, at 13:34:44
Thanks for everyone's replies. I have been thinking about it and I think my therapist was trying to make a much more complex point than I realized at the time.
Everyone's responses have contained phrases or ideas that made me think. I think she was trying to say that I tend to define myself by what I do for other people...whether that's emotional support, teaching kids, entertaining people with sarcasm, etc.
I think she was trying to say that my current depression is just the logical outcome of that. Maybe. I think I will have to ask her more about it today.
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2008, at 9:11:55
In reply to Re: living for yourself » raisinb, posted by raisinb on May 1, 2008, at 8:28:19
I have to confess I don't quite understand. And I suspect that to the extent I do manage it, I manage to hold completely contradictory thoughts about it.
Isn't this along the lines of Irvin Yalom's work? Doesn't he found his therapeutic method in part on existentialism? In chapter 44 in "The Gift of Therapy" he talks about his thoughts directly. That and fear of death seem to be important topics to him.
At the end of that chapter he says "It is engagement that counts, and we therapists do most good by identifying and helping to remove the obstacles to engagement. The question of meaning in life is, as the Buddha taught, not edifying. One must immerse oneself in the river of life and let the question drift away."
Not sure if this is to the point or not. It's something I've always had trouble with. And not something that's been an issue for me, to tell the truth. (Neither is fear of death, so maybe I don't really wish for Yalom as my therapist.) I think it's *loving* that has always made life meaningful to me. Loving my dog, or my parents, or my husband, or my son, or my therapist, or Babble, or God, or friends. Everything else just seems to flow from that. And when I have trouble loving, I feel worst. Wait. Maybe that isn't so far from what Yalom was saying? Engagement for him could equate with loving (or caring about) for me.
Posted by raisinb on May 1, 2008, at 10:31:38
In reply to Re: living for yourself » raisinb, posted by Dinah on May 1, 2008, at 9:11:55
Me too--the "loving" part. Part of my problem right now is that I can't locate love for a lot of the people in my life (except my therapist). And that there aren't a lot of people to love.
I think my therapist's point (maybe) was that most of my relationships don't offer me much "true" support (another thing she said.) Instead they are based on me deriving my self-esteem from meeting others' needs. Not that this is always a bad thing.
But...
I really feel lately like I am reaching a stage in therapy where I will have to restructure my entire life. This is scary and I don't like it .
Posted by raisinb on May 1, 2008, at 10:33:29
In reply to Re: living for yourself » Dinah, posted by raisinb on May 1, 2008, at 10:31:38
That Yalom is partly right--you only start asking about the meaning of life when you're deficient in it. When you're immersed in what you're doing and getting something out of it, you don't need to ask. So the question is itself a symptom.
Posted by rskontos on May 1, 2008, at 10:49:42
In reply to Re: living for yourself » raisinb, posted by raisinb on May 1, 2008, at 8:28:19
Exactly and that is exactly what Maria Shiver said in her book. She was depressed and sad when NBC let her go from her job because they said it would be a conflict of interest after her husband became Governor of CA. She said she identified herself as a journalist for 25 years and suddenly she was only a mother and First Lady of CA. She said she had never dreamed of being a First Lady of anything. One of her goals now is to stop putting I am "just" in front of anything she says now because she says it undermines what you think about yourself. She is proud of being a mother and of her husband. She is working on being proud of herself like we are all trying. I found it interesting someone like Maria struggles with something I struggle with. Especially given all she has done in her life.
I was trying to say in my post, I am trying to define myself just as me, not as what I do, or what I feel I have contributed in life. Although I struggle with it too.
rsk
Posted by B2chica on May 1, 2008, at 11:41:16
In reply to Re: living for yourself » raisinb, posted by rskontos on May 1, 2008, at 10:49:42
i'm so glad you posted that. i really like Maria and wouldn't imagine her having similar issues (like you said) either.
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