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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Kath on March 29, 2008, at 19:26:44
Just wondering about the difference?
Kath
Posted by Sigismund on March 29, 2008, at 20:48:56
In reply to CBT versus DBT, posted by Kath on March 29, 2008, at 19:26:44
What does DBT stand for?
I keep imagining 'Deep Brain Tuition' or 'Deep Brain Trauma'.
Posted by Kath on March 29, 2008, at 21:12:31
In reply to Re: CBT versus DBT » Kath, posted by Sigismund on March 29, 2008, at 20:48:56
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I don't even KNOW. :-)
CBT is cognitive behaviour therapy, as far as I know.
maybe there'll be more input.
hmmmmm
degenerating brain thumps ?
dignified brain trouncing ?
demoralizing brain trends ?
dopey brain tingles ?
Sorry! got carried away there.hugs, Kath
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2008, at 22:05:45
In reply to Re: CBT versus DBT » Sigismund, posted by Kath on March 29, 2008, at 21:12:31
I haven't looked at it for a while. But my recollection is that Linehan had discovered that the population of patients she worked with didn't do very well with cognitive behavior therapy. So she tried to incorporate the best of cognitive behavior therapy with eastern philosophy, radical acceptance, and dialectics. Which I think is the acceptance of two seemingly opposed ideas? Like "I accept you completely just as you are." and "Change is good."
There is a lot of emphasis on mindfulness and acceptance.
She also attempted to validate the therapy with outcome studies, so it was standardized a lot and used with manuals and with training and in strict settings. Since most therapists don't have the sort of setup she has, it's more often used in bits and pieces rather than in the entirety.
If it was used as she set it up to be used, the client would be in individual therapy sessions and in group training sessions. Therapists would have their own supports to try to keep countertransference and burnout at bay. And she also tries to standardize an approach using irreverence, and I'm not sure that can be standardized at all. That seems like an individual style.
Posted by Sigismund on March 29, 2008, at 22:17:35
In reply to Re: CBT versus DBT » Kath, posted by Dinah on March 29, 2008, at 22:05:45
Dingbat Therapy? No.
And then I remembered.
Someone here had already told me that it was Dialectical Behaviour Therapy, but I had no idea what it was about.
Posted by raisinb on March 30, 2008, at 11:01:12
In reply to CBT versus DBT, posted by Kath on March 29, 2008, at 19:26:44
CBT targets what CBT therapists would call "irrational" or "absolute" thinking. You are supposed to analyze these thoughts and substitute more rational or less extreme alternatives.
DBT is also cognitive-behavioral, but it is based on Dialectics, which is a philosophical position that regards change as the synthesis of opposites. So, if you say, "I can't deal with other people," and yet, "I hate to be alone" (just an example of an inner conflict) your therapist might help you to come to a higher synthesis of these two poles--like, "I am okay by myself; therefore, it's easier for me to deal with the uncertainty and disappointment that come with relationships."
Linehan noticed the black and white, all-good or all-bad thinking that seems to be a common symptom of BPD and thought that dialectics would be a good way to get patients out of it.
In my view, the difference between the two is that CBT often regards one thing as "true" or "rational," while DBT takes the stand that there is no absolute truth. Something can be "true" and "not true" at the same time. One party in a relationship can be both "right" and "wrong." A patient has to be accepted exactly as she is, but she has to be pushed to change, too.
As I understand it, the T in DBT can be very confrontational/playful in taking the opposite position to whatever the patient is saying, in order to jolt the patient out of rigid thinking.
As Dinah mentioned, there are also a lot of mindfulness skills involved. Linehan borrowed a lot from Zen Buddhism in putting together the therapy.
I have never been in DBT myself, but I love Linehan's book on the subject. The dialectical philosophy helped me get a lot more perspective on mental patterns I get trapped in. It's a great read if you have some time.
Posted by Phillipa on March 30, 2008, at 12:08:56
In reply to Re: CBT versus DBT » Kath, posted by raisinb on March 30, 2008, at 11:01:12
Sorry I really don't understand it. I do understand CBT but not DBT? Phillipa and I did read some provided links a while back. Just don't understand. Thick I guess.
Posted by Kath on March 30, 2008, at 16:06:21
In reply to Re: CBT versus DBT » Kath, posted by Dinah on March 29, 2008, at 22:05:45
I think it sounds wonderful Dinah!!
I'm reading a really good book right now, that was suggested by my Group Therapy leader.
A Guide to Rational Living by Albert Ellis & Robert A. Harper.
On the back cover it says "By the creators of ....Cognitive Behaviour Therapy & Rational Emotive Behavioural Therapy (REBT)"It's quite good. I'm reading it VERY slowly, making sure I understand everything & using my yellow hilighter with absolute IMPUNITY!
She also highly suggested Born to Win by Muriel James & Dorothy Jongeward. It's about TA - Transactional Analysis & was written a long time ago, as was the other one.
And she also highly recommended Emotional Fitness, by Janice Berger, who lives & has a practice not all that far away from where I live.
I bought the above 2 really cheaply at a used book store & also got "Loving What Is", by Byron Katie, which someone here at PB suggested - can't remember who!!
So basically, I have those 4 to read & digest.
HowEVER :-)
I am definitely interested in DBT, from the sounds of it, so when I've finished these, I'll look into it.What is your experience with it, Dinah?
hugs, Kath
Posted by Dinah on March 30, 2008, at 16:08:55
In reply to Re: CBT versus DBT » Dinah, posted by Kath on March 30, 2008, at 16:06:21
I've never done it other than by reading and trying to put into practice the skills manual myself.
It suits my mindset better than CBT. I think CBT has some good ideas, and good skills to learn. But it raises internal opposition more than I think DBT would.
Posted by Kath on March 30, 2008, at 16:10:54
In reply to Re: CBT versus DBT » Kath, posted by raisinb on March 30, 2008, at 11:01:12
Thx for your input. I've added it to my reading list!
I mostly like reading historical fiction with a good weightly plot, so part of me sort of resents reading this type of stuff.
BUT if it can help me feel better with the various situations that Life presents, then OKAY - I'll share my reading time!
:-) Kath
Posted by Kath on March 30, 2008, at 16:34:50
In reply to Re: CBT versus DBT » Kath, posted by Dinah on March 30, 2008, at 16:08:55
Dinah - maybe I'll keep my 'eye out' for the manual. Sounds like a person can work on it by themself?
I'll have to look into it. I'm pretty sure our local hospital offers CBT....maybe they offer DBT!
:-) hugs, Kath
Posted by llurpsienoodle on March 30, 2008, at 19:53:25
In reply to Re: CBT versus DBT » Dinah, posted by Kath on March 30, 2008, at 16:34:50
Hi Kath, I was just about to start a thread about working on sections from the DBT skills manual. It was recommended to me by the clinician at the hospital. She said that I'd probably get a lot out of it. Granted, I won't have the opportunity to the the whole group thing and all that, but my T has recommended it to me before and so having a 2nd opinion concur was enough for me to go out and buy the book "cognitive behavioral therapy for borderline personality disorder" and "skills manual for DBT" T recommended it to me because I have a little tolerance for uncertainty. (hmmm)
The descriptions above seem to capture the essence of DBT, as far as I've come to understand it.
ll
Posted by Kath on March 30, 2008, at 20:59:47
In reply to Re: CBT versus DBT » Kath, posted by llurpsienoodle on March 30, 2008, at 19:53:25
thx llurpsie,
I have little tolerance for uncertainty too!!!!
And how!!!!!!!!
thanks for that info.
Maybe I'll even be able to find them second-hand like I did the others.
This second hand bookstore has a HUGE self-help section. love it!
hugs, Kath
Posted by raisinb on March 30, 2008, at 22:31:06
In reply to Re: CBT versus DBT » raisinb, posted by Kath on March 30, 2008, at 16:10:54
Really, I'd highly recommend it. The book is called Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy for Borderline Personality Disorder (think Llurpsienoodle posted the link below).
Sometimes I wish I could be in therapy with Linehan. She has this very tough, smart, no-nonsense tone, combined with clear compassion for her patients and the explanations are very clear. It's designed for therapists, but most of it is not overly technical (and you can skip the parts that are, they're not essential).
Posted by Kath on March 31, 2008, at 21:39:38
In reply to Re: CBT versus DBT » Kath, posted by raisinb on March 30, 2008, at 22:31:06
I'll keep looking for that book secondhand.
I LOVED Group therapy today.
I was upset about "what if my son doesn't go to his group today - it was his birthday & they were having a cake for him & if he sleeps in & doesn't go, they might be SO disappointed"
I asked to 'do work' in group. It turned out that what I was upset about was NOT what I thought (as I guessed) & was about my ex-husband leaving me! Who woulda thot!!!!!!??
The doctor who was leading the group said she suspects I have a LOT of issues about him & she encouraged me to work on it in future groups - preferably sooner rather than later.
I am all for that! I feel so extremely SAFE in this group. She is totally SKILLED & COMPASSIONATE. I am so excited to be going to this GT & that it's covered by OHIP (government medical) so is free!!
Oh My Gosh!
:-))) Kath
PS - after doing the work, I wasn't upset any more about the birthday cake thing!!!!!!!
Posted by Daisym on March 31, 2008, at 23:25:26
In reply to Group Therapy GREAT today. AMAZING!!!, posted by Kath on March 31, 2008, at 21:39:38
I'm glad group is so safe and effective for you. I know when a group works it can really be an effective way to sort through your "stuff." It takes a really strong leader and I'm glad you have one.
Posted by Dinah on April 1, 2008, at 17:20:37
In reply to Group Therapy GREAT today. AMAZING!!!, posted by Kath on March 31, 2008, at 21:39:38
It sounds like a great group, and a great leader!
I'm glad you're getting so much from it.
This is the end of the thread.
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