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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by gazo on March 26, 2007, at 10:55:28
Morning Sugar! :o) I want to thank you for supporting me all weekend. I got the report in this morning... the reviewer won't be in today so it's up in the air. Until it's reviewed I still have a job. Probably one of the worst reports I have ever done. Yikes.
I wanted to discuss something with you but I didn't want to interrupt Penny's thread.
You talked about that biofeedback guy.. and Penny's T as well.. or T's in general I suppose. I have a beef with therapists(not with you) and the points you made reminded me of it. Don't you think it's a little unfair that they seem somewhat secretive? It seems like they want to keep it all mysterious. I mean, maybe T would introduce negative elements to shake someone's cage but it seems unnecessary if you've only just started. The part that bothers me is that we are all so uncertain of what they do that we have to sit and doubt ourselves because maybe their bad behaviour is a "technique."
I know we are supposed to question ourselves, I just don't see how it's helpful when it has to be mixed in with mistakes or bad judgement on their behalf. It seems wrong.
I wish they would just be more open about the process. I would be more willing to share and allow the guy to access my head if he gave me some idea why he might do or say certain things. How could I possibly know if an episode of anger from him is his problem or mine?
It's like the transference issue. How was I supposed to know that this happened and that I should examine what it was I was actually attracted to? He could have saved me a lot of grief. It's kinda presumptuous (sp?) on his part to think I trusted him enough to disclose it.
Of course, I am doubtful because and hour from now I will be sitting in my new T's office coming up with lots of reasons why I shouldn't trust him. ;o)
This was meant just a dialogue, not as a criticism or putting down of all therapists. I am interested in whether other people agree with how things seem to work.
Posted by Honore on March 26, 2007, at 11:05:44
In reply to Dinah, posted by gazo on March 26, 2007, at 10:55:28
I think they let th eprocess unfold, because the process is so different for everyone.
If a T started to explain transference to you, for example, he would have to do a textbook analysis, because there a different schools of thought about transference-- plus you won't really understand until you're in the grip of it.
I do think they could be much more upfront.
And it is completely inappropriate to be confronting people in the third appointment-- that was quite insensitive, overreaching, and actually suggested poor training or ability in doing therapy.
But ultimately, you really do have to go through it-- and hope that your T can make the specifics meaningful and react appropriately at any time with support, or even confrontation (only after there's a lot of trust and connection built up), or even practical suggestions, or-- well whatever.
It's the "whateverness" of therapy that makes it hard to explain beforehand. And even after and during-- cause life is pretty much a mystery, even to Ts, although they do, if any good, know more about helping, and relating in a good way, than most other people.
It is frustrating and hard-- lots of time-- enough to make you scream-- but I do ultimately think it's hard to avoid that part of it.
(But it shouldn't be right at the beginning, definitely-- unless it's a very exigent time when sometimes people make very intense, immediate connections-- or unless you like me are the type of person who does that anyway.)
Good luck with your new T, though. Let us know how it goes.
Honore
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2007, at 11:17:40
In reply to Dinah, posted by gazo on March 26, 2007, at 10:55:28
I've done a lot of reading, and there seem to be a lot of theories on what works best.
I've read articles or books by therapists who believe that doing exactly that sort of thing is just what a client needs to shake them up and make them think.
I don't, however, think they are in a majority.
I don't know the answer to what you ask. I always just ask. If my therapist does something I don't understand, and I'm not sure if he meant it to be therapeutic, or he just has indigestion, I'll ask.
I'll say something like "That seems like a confrontational statement. Is your intent to shake me up and get me to think, or are you angry with me, or are you just perhaps in a bad mood." I probably don't put it that succinctly. But I generally manage to get the answer to what I want to know.
Of course, I know my therapist well, and trust him enough to ask. Therapists like biofeedback guy apparently don't take as well to that. And probably it goes over better after twelve years of a relationship than it would in the first five minutes, when a therapist might be more apt to think I was difficult and confrontational.
Then there are those in the middle. I saw two therapists when my therapist moved out of town for a while. The first I quit seeing mainly for reasons unconnected to her, and more to do with where her office was located.
The second I saw for some time. She started off with more or less what I was used to, and what we had agreed to before I began seeing her, but one session she was startlingly confrontational. I was ready to just walk, to tell the truth, but Babblers convinced me to give it another try. So I talked to her about it and told her that I found it just too confrontational to be helpful to me. She agreed to try to balance out the amount of support and confrontation more, and we worked amicably *enough* until my therapist came back, although I never cared for her overmuch. In the end, I don't think we could work well together long term. She prided herself on her directness and the way she pushed clients to change. And when I'm pushed I dig my heels in. I'm better coaxed or led.
My therapist was highly entertained by my description of my time with her. He knew her, and said my impression of her was exactly correct, and she was that way in and out of therapy. Not that it's a bad thing, but he saw that it wouldn't be something that I would want in a therapist.
There is technique to therapy, no doubt about it. And we shouldn't complain overmuch, because if there wasn't, we'd have no reason to see professionals instead of friends. My response was to do as much research as I could so that I understood what techniques he was using. And I often do. If I like the technique ok, I just note it and continue. If I don't, I tell him so and we discuss that.
Am I a control freak? Maybe. In fact definitely. It was years before I admitted to my reading and had to struggle to find a way to tell him or ask him something without sounding as if I knew the words for it. Now he's amused by my reading.
Should I just have trusted him and let the process take me away? Maybe. But first I'd have had to have a personality transplant. Or had the pod people take me over.
Posted by DisTraught on March 26, 2007, at 12:00:16
In reply to Dinah, posted by gazo on March 26, 2007, at 10:55:28
"The part that bothers me is that we are all so uncertain of what they do that we have to sit and doubt ourselves because maybe their bad behaviour is a "technique."
Amen. That's what gets me. I don't know plain braindead and plain insensitive and brutal technique from one another. All I know is that it hurts whatever it's called.
Penny
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2007, at 12:06:59
In reply to Re: Dinah, posted by DisTraught on March 26, 2007, at 12:00:16
Brutal technique or insensitive, either way, you don't have to put up with anything from a therapist that you don't want to put up with.
Brutal techniques are not something I want or would tolerate in a therapist, even if in his own mind he was being bold and direct.
So in the case of brutal, I'm not sure it matters what was in the therapist's mind.
A therapist of three sessions who said something like that to me, even if his intent was to do what he could in the ludicrous insurance timeframe of five sessions, is not someone I'd want to work with.
But in due honesty, I have to say there are some clients who would have different parameters of what they'd accept or find useful than I do.
Posted by Honore on March 26, 2007, at 14:25:38
In reply to Re: Dinah » DisTraught, posted by Dinah on March 26, 2007, at 12:06:59
It's really easy to forget that therapists are just human beings. Some are nice; some are sensitive; some are just plain boorish and crude. (Hope that's not uncivil; I'm sure it's not that common, but it does exist.)
I've run into them, and gotten terribly upset, and self-critical and self-doubting, and gone into waves of sort of defensive self-justification, which involved tons of self-undermining "but it wasn't my fault..... because..." es.
I just think when you go to someone for help, and are feeling very vulnerable, and afraid of something bad that;s happening to and in you-- and lost and confused-- and the human being in the room with you makes a clumsy or tactless or down-right mean mistake-- you're going to be devastated.
It's awful. It's really a bad bad and sad thing. But that guy was just some guy-- and he had gone to grad school in psych, and had a practice-- but in the end, he was just some guy groping to find something to say-- and he found the wrong thing-- for whatever reason-- technique, desperation, bad spiritedness, miscalculation.
It wasn't really probably that he was such an awful person, as that he was a rather lost confused person himself, and didn't know what to do. Some Ts are lost, confused people; some are very wise and have a deep sense of life. It runs the gamut, unfortunately-- and there's a lot of the groping to get through sometimes.
But as a patient, it's so hard to remember-- or believe that. But I wish that you could believe this truth, because maybe you can recover from the pain of the moment more quickly and with less self-damaging self-blame.
Honore
Posted by gazo on March 26, 2007, at 15:10:44
In reply to Re: Dinah » gazo, posted by Dinah on March 26, 2007, at 11:17:40
> I'm not sure if he meant it to be therapeutic, or he just has indigestion, I'll ask.
>
I think that is a wonderful approach, and as you say, it works well once you are comfortable. I suppose it bothers me so because one issue I have is being worried about upsetting people.. a display of anger or frustration would send me over the edge.
> And when I'm pushed I dig my heels in. I'm better coaxed or led.That is me exactly. I mean *exactly.* I am worried that if the new guy is too direct I'll meet him head on... he needs to walk to me unarmed.. BUT.. if he was too goooey soft I'd probably run. I don't do mushy well at all.
>
> There is technique to therapy, no doubt about it. And we shouldn't complain overmuch, because if there wasn't, we'd have no reason to see professionals instead of friends.This is true. I think having techinques is fine, and sometimes not explaining is ok too. But I think they should mostly be open about it. maybe that is just me. I feel a little manipulated i guess... i think it's like you said about not telling your T you were reading up.. I am going to find out if there is some technique being used on me sooner or later, so I'd feel better about it if they'd fess up. Just me though.
> Should I just have trusted him and let the process take me away? Maybe. But first I'd have had to have a personality transplant. Or had the pod people take me over.
Hahahahahaaa! Funny :o) I am weird I guess..ok, i KNOW i am weird. I just throw all the pieces out there early, let him pick 'em up. I hope he doesn't think that is a sign of trust.. it isn't. It's just who I am. I can tell you about anything, but I won't connect with the feelings surounding it.. that's the trust part.
Posted by gazo on March 26, 2007, at 15:21:04
In reply to Re: Dinah, posted by DisTraught on March 26, 2007, at 12:00:16
> Amen. That's what gets me. I don't know plain braindead and plain insensitive and brutal technique from one another. All I know is that it hurts whatever it's called.I hope you didn't feel excluded by me making this thread.. I just didn't want to tramp all over yours. Please join in :o)
The sad thing about your situation is that you didn't have the chance to decide whether this guy was right for you. As much as I get attached, I promised myself I would "shop" for someone if need be, so that the therapy would work.. I mean, even if there is a deliberate confrontation technique (which I doubt in your case), there has to be some understanding of who you are and what your issues are first.
write about it. get mad. even if your rxn is your issue, you need to get through it until you can get help with it. eat a whole tub of cookie dough ice cream. watch a comedy.
do something you think will give you some emotional release.
Posted by gazo on March 26, 2007, at 15:29:42
In reply to Re: Dinah, posted by Honore on March 26, 2007, at 14:25:38
This is true. They are people too. I said today to my new T that the process can be handled badly, sometimes even by good T's... and we are people too. You're right, we are vulnerable. They hold the power in a lot of ways.
Penny's scenario is a unfortunate one and obviously has caused her a lot of pain.. but it wasn't her case that I was getting at entirely. She made a good point though, that as a client how are we supposed to know indigestion from a technique? If there was transparency in the process maybe it would be more obvious? Dunno, just wondering allowed.
One thing we also forget, along with them being human too, is that generally this is a business transaction as well. Either we, our insurance, or some other agency pays for the service. We have the right to decide to work with someone or not. The therapy process should be challenging certainly but if you feel pushed too hard, too fast or you feel worse, then you have the right to consider someone else. I often forget that it isn't a friendship or something like that.. I am paying this guy to help me.
This is a great discussion!
Posted by Daisym on March 27, 2007, at 1:06:41
In reply to Re: Dinah » Honore, posted by gazo on March 26, 2007, at 15:29:42
We work with a set of principles in my work that include believing (trying to believe?) that other professionals are doing the best they can motivated by a wish to help. It is hard to embrace this sometimes.
I think there is so much "crud" out there about what therapy is, what therapist's do, etc. that we all end up suspicious. I think it is human nature to feel foolish when manipulated so we are on guard against such things.
I'm like Dinah. I usually ask if I want to know something about what my therapist is doing. He is willing to debate technique or talk theory sometimes. He will tease me about doing it right, particularly since I'm studying attachment theory, etc.
I guess it is like all things, personality is a big factor in compatibility.
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2007, at 12:27:03
In reply to Re: Dinah - invasion of the Pod people » Dinah, posted by gazo on March 26, 2007, at 15:10:44
I told him what I said about that today, and he chuckled and said that if I hadn't done exactly what I did, I wouldn't be who I was. And somehow the way he said it made it sound perfectly ok. :)
This is the end of the thread.
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