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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by toojane on January 19, 2007, at 17:18:45
I was wondering if anyone on the board has tried to address their suffering from a spiritual perspective, either with or without the help of their therapist?
Do you think suffering is a purely psychological experience and is therefore solvable or relieved by psychological interventions alone or do you think it can be seen as a spiritual problem and therefore ultimately it doesn't matter what therapy you use, none of them can work if they do not address the spiritual meaning of suffering?
I just read this in a book and wondered what others thought of it...
"Whatever is happening to us now mirrors our past karma. If we really realize that, we'll also know that when suffering comes, it's never without a reason or a cause, that it's destructive emotions and negative actions, or karma, which stem from ignorance. Suffering does not just land on us from out of nowhere, it's the result of our past actions, the karma. However, if someone's suffering, it doesn't mean that he or she is somehow a "bad" person or that the suffering is a failure or a punishment in any way, but rather it means that person is finishing, purifying, or coming to an end of a particular karma. If we can recognize this and see our suffering as a purification, then suffering is given meaning and purpose.
Also, spiritual practice can quicken the process of purification, with the result that practitioners may not have to endure prolonged suffering over many aeons or lives. The suffering is done away with more quickily. This is how practitioners come to see suffering with joy, like a broom that sweeps away all our negative karma. Then not only do we see suffering for what it truly is but in the process we accumulate tremendous positive karma.
On the other hand, if we don't see suffering as a natural part of samsara - a fact of life - or as having a cause and a meaning, not only do we have to endure the suffering but we mishandle it as well. We will not use suffering well and draw out its true purpose. Instead, if we get anxious and alarmed and develop a strong aversion to suffering, this will not only block us from our path or spiritual development but also aggravate and magnify our suffering. This in turn might make us commit more harmful actions and create negative karma, which will result in even more and even worse suffering." ~ Sogyal Rinpoche
Posted by Tamar on January 19, 2007, at 19:00:02
In reply to Suffering, posted by toojane on January 19, 2007, at 17:18:45
I recently read a journal article by a pdoc who was saying that spirituality is somthing that needs to be addressed in many patients/clients. He thinks it's an important aspect of health that isn't just psychological.
Having said that, I'm not sure I agree with the idea that developing an aversion to suffering is a bad thing. I also don't agree that suffering has meaning or that it purifies us. I think at times it's possible for suffering to purify us, but to me it often looks as if suffering scalds us and damages us and makes us less than the people we could be. I strongly resist the idea that anyone deserves to suffer, or that suffering is a helpful way to encounter God. My views are at odds with much of my own (Christian) tradition...
My personal view is that to be fully human we need to try to alleviate suffering rather than to embrace it. My fear is that if we accept suffering as inevitable or purifying then we will no longer be moved by the suffering of the poor or the sick or the marginalised.
I can understand to some extent that there might be some appeal in accepting what cannot be changed, and some things really cannot be changed. But I still want to change them, and for me that's what spirituality is all about: the possibility of change.
Just my two cents.
Tamar
Posted by Daisym on January 19, 2007, at 22:55:15
In reply to Re: Suffering » toojane, posted by Tamar on January 19, 2007, at 19:00:02
This has been an ongoing discussion in my therapy. I think it is part of the existential crisis of trying to find yourself and the pain of past experiences. My therapist recently asked me if I thought people suffered for a reason. I think suffering is inevitable and part of the human condition, but I'm not sure that all suffering is productive or a means to an end. I want to believe that, I want to believe there is a reason for everything. But I think my heart believes that sometimes there is suffering that is unwarranted and unfair, which is why I try to battle back against it in my own little corner of the world.
I think spirituality and suffering and Karma are all items that should be open to discussion. Perhaps we are suppose to find meaning in our own suffering, and acceptance...but it is really hard.
Posted by toojane on January 20, 2007, at 9:43:57
In reply to Re: Suffering » toojane, posted by Tamar on January 19, 2007, at 19:00:02
Hi Tamar, thank you for your very thoughful reply.
> Having said that, I'm not sure I agree with the idea that developing an aversion to suffering is a bad thing.
I think the idea is that there is suffering in life because it is a part of life and if someone exerts a great deal of effort trying to avoid suffering or to deny it, making choices in the hope of not encountering it or to flee from it, ultimately their efforts are futile.
>I also don't agree that suffering has meaning or that it purifies us.Have you read Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl or anything on existential psychotherapy? Frankl survived his stay in a concentration camp because he was able to find meaning in his suffering.
Nietzsche said "He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how."
>I think at times it's possible for suffering to purify us, but to me it often looks as if suffering scalds us and damages us and makes us less than the people we could be.Hmmm. I think suffering can be transformative and at times can make a person more, not less.
>I strongly resist the idea that anyone deserves to suffer, or that suffering is a helpful way to encounter God.I absolutely agree that no one deserves to suffer. Have you heard that saying pain is inevitable but suffering is optional? It seems terribly glib and trite to me. As if suffering itself is a choice. And I don't believe suffering is a 'helpful' way to encounter God but I do believe that people who have suffered greatly are sometimes closer to God or more enlightened (or whatever terms are used in a particular faith) because of their experiences.
> My personal view is that to be fully human we need to try to alleviate suffering rather than to embrace it. My fear is that if we accept suffering as inevitable or purifying then we will no longer be moved by the suffering of the poor or the sick or the marginalised.This is where I get confused about the stance of accepting suffering. Is there maybe a difference between personal and public suffering? That you are meant to find a life's purpose in relieving the suffering of others while accepting your own? I'm not sure but doesn't there NEED to be judgement and anger and outrage about suffering because it is those things that cause people to act? Simple acceptance is passive, isn't it?
> Just my two cents.Thanks for those two cents :)
Posted by toojane on January 20, 2007, at 10:02:59
In reply to Re: Suffering, posted by Daisym on January 19, 2007, at 22:55:15
Hi Daisy,
> I think suffering is inevitable and part of the human condition, but I'm not sure that all suffering is productive or a means to an end.
I find this topic very complex and confusing, that's why I wanted to post and hear other's thoughts about it. I don't think suffering is a means to end, that one can say I am suffering and this suffering will make me a better person somehow and that is it's purpose. But I have been considering that maybe there can be a meaning attached to it. I'm just not sure what that is.
> But I think my heart believes that sometimes there is suffering that is unwarranted and unfair, which is why I try to battle back against it in my own little corner of the world.I think that it is almost always unfair and that looking hard at suffering often involves moral judgements that others use as a form of distancing. If it is determined to be deserved in some way, then it can be ignored.
> I think spirituality and suffering and Karma are all items that should be open to discussion. Perhaps we are suppose to find meaning in our own suffering, and acceptance...but it is really hard.I agree.
I wanted to tell you that a post you wrote just a little while ago made me think very hard about the spiritual vs the psychological. It was where you were longing for your therapist and didn't have any sense of him inside you and he said he could understand your distress, that you thought he was hiding on purpose but he wasn't. That longing seemed almost spiritual to me. It made me wonder if it was your therapist you were searching for, if a person can meet that need or if that need can only be met by something more transcendent.
Posted by Daisym on January 20, 2007, at 23:36:58
In reply to Re: Suffering » Daisym, posted by toojane on January 20, 2007, at 10:02:59
I think you might be right, that what I'm really looking for can only be found in the spiritual realm of hope and acceptance. My faith was always such a sustaining part of me but now I struggle to understand what God wants from me...where was he when bad things were happening?
And yet, when it gets down to it, I still pray for guidance and strength to live through my own suffering and find meaning in it. So I guess I'm angry at God but not done with him.
It is complicated, isn't it? I wonder what God thinks of therapy?
Posted by toojane on January 21, 2007, at 11:22:31
In reply to Re: Suffering, posted by Daisym on January 20, 2007, at 23:36:58
>My faith was always such a sustaining part of me but now I struggle to understand what God wants from me...where was he when bad things were happening?
Is your relationship with God a parental one? Where you view God as a father who watches over you and cares for you as if you were a child? And so you assume that bad things happened to you because he let them, that he failed in his fatherly duty to protect you?I've read posts where you have said you are angry with your therapist for not being there and protecting you when you were little. Where was he?
You are a mother and in your own children's lives, have they ever come home bruised from falls off bikes or with broken arms from tumbles from jungle gyms or with broken hearts from first loves? Why didn't you prevent those things from happening? Is it because you do not love them? Is it because they disappointed you in some way and therefore you abandoned them? Or is it because you couldn't? Because bruises and broken arms and broken hearts are part of life, the same way that bicycles and jungle gyms and first loves are.
Have you ever looked at other faiths and the way they conceive of a relationship with God? It can be very interesting to look at the idea of God in different ways.
I've been reading here about how people look to their therapists as if they were a parent, for comfort and shelter and safety and help and hope. But it seems to me that they are searching for something more than a parent as well.
Posted by bil on January 21, 2007, at 20:59:12
In reply to Suffering, posted by toojane on January 19, 2007, at 17:18:45
I do agree wholeheartedly that therapy rarely addresses spiritual problems... not sure why that is, but I think that this area is where many of my 'issues' come from; I focus on this the most because I feel if I can sort it out I might be on the path to healing.
Over the past several years, I've explored several different spiritual paths, and I do have problems with quite a few of the Eastern philosophies that believe our suffering is due to karma and past lives... to me, that's on the same level as medieval christian beliefs which taught if something bad happened to you, it's because you had sinned, and were being punished for it... so that children born with any handicap were seen as punishment FOR THE PARENTS.
I feel that this sort of thinking causes people to become too accepting... like those in India who tolerate being told that they are Untouchable from birth because of something they did in a previous incarnation- sorry, but I think that is cr*p.
The only thing I think suffering teaches is (hopefully) compassion for others in the same situation... I don't think it makes me a better person, or purified in any way. Gawd... if what I'm going through is purifying, could I please be, er- not? Please???
bil
Posted by muffled on January 21, 2007, at 23:36:43
In reply to Re: Suffering, posted by Daisym on January 20, 2007, at 23:36:58
>My faith was always such a sustaining part of me but now I struggle to understand what God wants from me...where was he when bad things were happening?
**This is EXACTLY what I am struggling with right now...
>
> And yet, when it gets down to it, I still pray for guidance and strength to live through my own suffering and find meaning in it. So I guess I'm angry at God but not done with him.**I am furious w/God, part of mew is anyways, part of me is absolutely livid.
Yet sometimes I try to pray for others too, but I am so ashamed , I don't think He will listen to me.
But I NEED God. But I mad at Him too.
Yeah, I tend to think of God as helping me sometimes, but sometimes WTF, it seems He must just sit there looking???????????
This is a very hard thing to me right now.
>
> It is complicated, isn't it? I wonder what God thinks of therapy?**I think He must think its OK.
Muffled
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