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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by annierose on September 29, 2006, at 16:50:14
I'm one of those attached babblers that is always trying to define or just plain understand the therapeutic relationship. I realize it would just be better to accept it as it is. But I can't seem to. I want to know more --- know more about the relationship from her point of view, know more about her as a person, know more about what she is thinking --- just know.
My T does know I feel this way and we have gone on this merry-go-round more than once. She does let me know she cares about me, that I matter to her. Somehow it isn't enough.
I engaged her in this conversation (again) on Tuesday and she made (IMO) a flip remark, "Annie, nothing is forever you know." Something about her tone, on top of those words had tears streaming down my cheeks. I went to my yoga class later that night and more tears tried to fall but I held onto them as my children were taking the class with me. I went again, alone, last night, and the tears did fall this time during the meditation part at the end. My yoga teacher came over to me and massaged my head and whispered, "It's okay, you're okay, let them fall." That of course sent me over the edge, but I kept myself composed, and left after class.
I saw my T this morning and told her about what happened in yoga. I think what made that experience so sad, or so scary, (or both) is my yoga teacher reached out to me. She saw my pain, and tried to comfort me in a way a mother would --- by touch. My T said, "Don't you feel that I am reaching out to you?" And the truth is no. I told her, "I don't see you as reaching out to me. Instead, I see you as being here for me (because you are paid to) and being present for me in the moment. But the boundaries of this relationship prohibit you from reaching out." She disagreed and agreed with what I said. Does this make sense to anyone else? I explained to her, "You can't touch me to comfort me."
It's amazing how strong the human need is for touch. Although I'm the first person to say, I don't like to be touched by strangers. But my T isn't a stranger. And if she did hug me, it would probably flip me out. I am full of contradictions.
She tried to comfort me by saying, "This relationship isn't a regular type of friendship. You can't reach me anytime you need to talk, but you can call me and leave a message and I will get back to you." And she apologized for her earlier remark and said she didn't intend for it to hurt me.
I don't know anything. But I want to know so much more.
Posted by muffled on September 29, 2006, at 17:54:04
In reply to therapy, yoga and t's comments ...., posted by annierose on September 29, 2006, at 16:50:14
> I'm one of those attached babblers that is always trying to define or just plain understand the therapeutic relationship. I realize it would just be better to accept it as it is. But I can't seem to. I want to know more --- know more about the relationship from her point of view, know more about her as a person, know more about what she is thinking --- just know.
>
**It is a fascinating topic all right...> My T does know I feel this way and we have gone on this merry-go-round more than once. She does let me know she cares about me, that I matter to her. Somehow it isn't enough.
***yeah i do that with my T too, just can't quite comprehend that she'd care....
>
> I engaged her in this conversation (again) on Tuesday and she made (IMO) a flip remark, "Annie, nothing is forever you know." Something about her tone, on top of those words had tears streaming down my cheeks. I went to my yoga class later that night and more tears tried to fall but I held onto them as my children were taking the class with me. I went again, alone, last night, and the tears did fall this time during the meditation part at the end. My yoga teacher came over to me and massaged my head and whispered, "It's okay, you're okay, let them fall." That of course sent me over the edge, but I kept myself composed, and left after class.
>
> I saw my T this morning and told her about what happened in yoga. I think what made that experience so sad, or so scary, (or both) is my yoga teacher reached out to me. She saw my pain, and tried to comfort me in a way a mother would --- by touch. My T said, "Don't you feel that I am reaching out to you?" And the truth is no. I told her, "I don't see you as reaching out to me. Instead, I see you as being here for me (because you are paid to) and being present for me in the moment. But the boundaries of this relationship prohibit you from reaching out." She disagreed and agreed with what I said. Does this make sense to anyone else? I explained to her, "You can't touch me to comfort me."***Thats SO cool. I never thot of that. Its very interesting.
My T wants to touch me. Everyonce in awhile she does this 'almost' pat my knee thing.
One time she DID pat my knee. It was ok. I didn't freak.
One time, can't remember why, but she asked ahead if she could give me a hug, and I didn't know what to say so I said whatever. It was weird. I just blanked.
I think my T is just so kind and nice.
So I dunno. Sometimes I'd want to hug her, but it'd be a bit freaky.
Some day I will.
And it will be nice to know I can do that and be ok with that.
But my T is a Christian counsellor, so mebbe its different than a regular counsellor.
I dunno.
>
> It's amazing how strong the human need is for touch. Although I'm the first person to say, I don't like to be touched by strangers. But my T isn't a stranger. And if she did hug me, it would probably flip me out. I am full of contradictions.**So did she say its out of the question to receive a hug, if asked, at the appropriate time?
>
> She tried to comfort me by saying, "This relationship isn't a regular type of friendship. You can't reach me anytime you need to talk, but you can call me and leave a message and I will get back to you." And she apologized for her earlier remark and said she didn't intend for it to hurt me.
>
> I don't know anything. But I want to know so much more.**Your T sounds like she really cares.
Mebbe a one arm sideways hug sometime?
I'm not big on touch myself, so its hard to say.
Take care.
Good questions.
Muffled
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 29, 2006, at 18:47:36
In reply to Re: therapy, yoga and t's comments ...., posted by muffled on September 29, 2006, at 17:54:04
Annierose,
that sounds really intense. I'm glad you had a safe place (yoga) to let it out, and feel good about showing your hurt feelings. I'm also glad that you have a T that you can talk to about these things. It's really hard when you want to know that they are there, but that they are not your parent, or your lover, or your close friend. They are somehow ambiguous, distant, so so close that you cannot imagine what you must have done wrong in this life (or another one) to be simultaneously helped and hurt by such a relationship.Sometimes my husband can't even hold me or do anything to take the pain away. At some level, the hurt is so deep, that mere touch is just superficial and trite. It's the gesture that goes deeper. I guess T's think that the gesture might as well come through their words and their reliability to return messages and such. BUT! they are simply not available as one would need a true partner to be.
So frustrating, huh?
-Li
Posted by frida on September 29, 2006, at 19:09:38
In reply to therapy, yoga and t's comments ...., posted by annierose on September 29, 2006, at 16:50:14
I can so relate to what you've shared...
I'm glad that your yoga teacher was there for you.
Did your T say it's impossible to get a hug from her?I also ache for human safe touch...I'm doing some physical T now apart from my regular T, and this T has reached out to me physically and I've been able to cry the tears I can't cry in T..I don't know..I feel as a little girl that needs safe touch..that kind of comfort..like a mother would. Your post touches me because just today I saw my physical T and I was holding back tears..and she reached out to me and held me hand and stroke my hair and said "those ghosts are back now?" .. and that comment just made my eyes fill with tears.I'm glad I have her now in my life because I do have such intense, painful longing to be comforted as a little girl.
I don't know if my T would reach out to me that way. Sometimes I wish she would, because the tears come instantly , and right now I can't cry in T needing it so badly. She has held me sometimes...not often but she has and it's made all the difference in the world.
We who haven't had safe touch as children, really do need it and crave for it. It's such a painful feeling.
I'm glad your yoga teacher reached out to you, but I hope you can feel more comfort from your T.
They do care, I know...
I've tested my T so much..and I do believe her now that she does care. I've made her say it..I need to hear her say it and fortunately she has said that she does love me and care about me.Anyway, I'm rambling, what I meant to say is that I can so relate to what you're sharing and I hope you can feel more warmth and caring from your T...
take care
frida
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 29, 2006, at 19:50:08
In reply to Re: therapy, yoga and t's comments ...., posted by muffled on September 29, 2006, at 17:54:04
Wow, it's frustrating, isn't it? My T's boundaries are not as strong as yours, and still I freak out every time I run into them. I told her over the summer that I was so tired of this -- because my heart thinks of her as my mother and expects her to act like one and she thinks of me as a client and expects me to act like one and "never the twain shall meet." I also told her I was sick of always being on the hurt end of the equation. So I struggle with this a lot. And yet she DOES hug me, she sits by me and holds me if I ask her to, she is fairly available to me in between sessions. But it just doesn't feel like enough to make up for everything I missed as a kid. Not her fault, not my fault, but sometimes I wonder if the hurt is worth it.
MUFFLED: My T is a pastoral counselor, so we have this in common, too. Maybe we see the same T. :-)
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 29, 2006, at 19:50:57
In reply to Re: therapy, yoga and t's comments .... » muffled, posted by Lindenblüte on September 29, 2006, at 18:47:36
Posted by Daisym on September 29, 2006, at 22:49:37
In reply to therapy, yoga and t's comments ...., posted by annierose on September 29, 2006, at 16:50:14
Hi Annie,
There must be something in the air. We talked about touch yesterday too. I told him that for the first time in our relationship I was afraid of him - physically afraid. The young 5 year old part wants so much to hold his hand and the rest of me is terrified he'll say yes, but only if he gets what he wants too. (I know he doesn't really want sex, but that is what I'm afraid of...) I completely realize how old this is...but it is scary how much I want him to hold me and make the pain go away.
And yet, as scary as it is, it still hurts to know that he won't. Those boundaries really hurt when we are bumping up against primal needs.
I think you are going to have to keep talking about what it would mean to you if she did hug you, and how you feel when she doesn't. And why did her tone hurt so much -- who did it remind you of?
All these things about our relationship with our therapists are supposed to help us know ourselves and our needs better. But I'm having a hard time wanting anyone else to fill these needs -- and somehow I don't think I'm alone in this. It is a trust thing, I think.
I hope you find a way to know what you need to know.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 30, 2006, at 6:22:35
In reply to Re: therapy, yoga and t's comments .... » annierose, posted by Daisym on September 29, 2006, at 22:49:37
> I think you are going to have to keep talking about what it would mean to you if she did hug you, and how you feel when she doesn't. And why did her tone hurt so much -- who did it remind you of?yeah. i guess that is what therapy is supposed to be about.
if you talk about it... are the feelings supposed to go away?
sorry... i'm just... i wonder what therapy is supposed to be about sometimes. how it is supposed to help. sometimes knowing something... does it help? i don't know.
Posted by annierose on September 30, 2006, at 6:58:09
In reply to Re: therapy, yoga and t's comments ...., posted by muffled on September 29, 2006, at 17:54:04
Muffled - First I smiled when I saw you posted to me. I think it's the first time you have and that made me happy.
Touch can open a can of worms for both the client and the therapist. That's why I think my T has such strong boundaries re:touch. I think she welcomes us discussing my feelings about it, she makes that okay, but she would never "reach out" and touch me.
When your T touched you and you "blanked out" --- did you tell her that? She would probably want to know how that made you feel - emotionally and physically. I'm glad your T is kind and nice. Those are important qualities to have in a therapist. I think my T is kind and nice as well. And smart too. I like that about her.
Posted by annierose on September 30, 2006, at 7:05:33
In reply to Re: therapy, yoga and t's comments .... » muffled, posted by Lindenblüte on September 29, 2006, at 18:47:36
>>>>to be simultaneously helped and hurt by such a relationship<<<<
There is something true about that for me too. I know deep down that she is helping and this ultimately will help me, but in the here and now it just feels painful.
>>>that sounds really intense<<<
My T said I was "intense" yesterday. I was taken aback (in fact offended) and said, "Are you saying that I am intense because I don't think of myself that way." She responded by saying, "I guess it is how one defines intense. I mean it as a good thing. You have access to all your emotions - from a to z - some people, like your mother, are more limited, they experience life from a to d. I think of you as alive, experiencing life fully." Okay, she recovered nicely there.
>>>Sometimes my husband can't even hold me or do anything to take the pain away<<<
My husband and I are barely talking these days. This is a huge part of my current pain.
Thank you for responding to me.
Posted by annierose on September 30, 2006, at 7:14:50
In reply to Re: therapy, yoga and t's comments .... » annierose, posted by frida on September 29, 2006, at 19:09:38
I guess we shouldn't be surprised by our reactions to human comfort via touching --- but it does always surprise me when people reach out to me in anyway.
I'm glad that your physical therapist was so kind and thoughtful when you cried AND she understood the tears were emotional tears and you were not experiencing physical pain from the torture of PT (grin).
My T would never touch me. I've never asked about her policy because I just know. But she does try to comfort me. I don't experience her as cold or distant --- not at all. I guess what I put into a concrete thought for the first time, was when someone (my yoga teacher) reached out (i.e. went out of her way) to me that it felt wonderful and scary at the same time. And I don't experience my T as going out of her way for me --- she is there for me, 100% there, but that is her job. I don't know if that distinction makes sense or not.
It is wonderful when we feel love from our Ts.
Posted by annierose on September 30, 2006, at 7:22:02
In reply to MUFFLED » muffled, posted by TherapyGirl on September 29, 2006, at 19:50:08
.... I also told her I was sick of always being on the hurt end of the equation. <<<<
That's it! That is what I was trying to say in part to her yesterday.
UUGGGHHH. I know this struggle is worth it. I know I am a happier person today than I was 2 years ago. But I wish that she wasn't such an important part of my life. It overwhelms me sometimes.
Thank you for writing your thoughts. This is the first time so many people have responded to a thread that usually do not write to me, so that made me happy.
Posted by annierose on September 30, 2006, at 7:40:32
In reply to Re: therapy, yoga and t's comments .... » annierose, posted by Daisym on September 29, 2006, at 22:49:37
I do think we are on the same path so much of the time --- approaching the same feelings from different aspects but painful ones nonetheless.
>>>And why did her tone hurt so much -- who did it remind you of?<<<
I told her right away she sounded like my mother. I said, "I hear my mom saying, don't trust anyone, no one is going to like you, don't get too close or you are going to get hurt."
To me "Nothing lasts forever" was my T saying, "You are such a foolish girl to think that this attachment is going to last forever. I can't wait to get you moved on and out of my office." But I didn't tell her that part. I didn't realize how strong that feeling is stuck in there too. WOW! (lightbulb goes on in my brain). I guess it's good to shine light on my feelings every now and then ...
I'm sorry that the 5 year old is scared of T right now. She wants to hold his hand. That's appropriate. All 5 year olds want their daddy to take them by the hand, to go skipping or just to cross the street. I know why it's terrifying too.
How come the nicest people have the most pain? Your T and mine do want to help make the pain go away. It just takes so much time and often we can't see the path that we are on is taking us there. I often tell T that I feel we are going in circles. Back to that darn spiral metaphor again.
>>>I'm having a hard time wanting anyone else to fill these needs<<<
That is what started this entire session on Tuesday. I was telling her how scary it will be to leave her one day. That's when she said, "Nothing lasts forever." But at first she said, "You can't imagine it because you are not ready to leave yet. We are still working on this project we have taken on together. You're not there."
Yes, I think you are right. It's a trust thing --- at the most basic level. Is it more about not trusting ourselves or not trusting them? Hmmm.
Posted by annierose on September 30, 2006, at 7:46:43
In reply to Re: therapy, yoga and t's comments ...., posted by alexandra_k on September 30, 2006, at 6:22:35
I guess for me, Alex, I try to step back and remember what I was feeling 2 - 3 years ago before I started treatment. Otherwise, while in the midst of therapy, it's hard to get perspective if it is helping or not. I know for you, getting good, consistent treatment has been a struggle (and that doesn't seem fair).
But when I reflect back, I know I have changed. Just the other day, a staff member came up to me (I'm her boss)and said, "You know, you have really changed." (In the context of the conversation it was a good thing). The change I see for myself is I'm less reactive. And that feels powerful.
Posted by muffled on September 30, 2006, at 9:33:16
In reply to Re: therapy, yoga and t's comments .... » muffled, posted by annierose on September 30, 2006, at 6:58:09
> Muffled - First I smiled when I saw you posted to me. I think it's the first time you have and that made me happy.
***OH sorry if I never said nothing brfore.
I read your stuff.
Nice to actaully meet ya then. :-)
>
> Touch can open a can of worms for both the client and the therapist. That's why I think my T has such strong boundaries re:touch. I think she welcomes us discussing my feelings about it, she makes that okay, but she would never "reach out" and touch me.
>
> When your T touched you and you "blanked out" --- did you tell her that? She would probably want to know how that made you feel - emotionally and physically. I'm glad your T is kind and nice. Those are important qualities to have in a therapist. I think my T is kind and nice as well. And smart too. I like that about her.***Yup, I told her. She never tried to hug me again. We can try again another time. I DO hug people sometimes, its just she knows how awful I am or something, so I can't beleive she'd actually want to touch me when I so disgusting or something. So I'm glad she not scared to touch me, even if I not so used to it.
Glad you got a nice T :-)
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by Dinah on September 30, 2006, at 12:12:36
In reply to therapy, yoga and t's comments ...., posted by annierose on September 29, 2006, at 16:50:14
The nothing is forever comment would have distressed me as well. I suppose it's true, but I'd rather not have it be part of the ongoing relationship unless I bring it up.
I sometimes think the touch prohibition may make touch loom too large in a client's mind, and that taking away the prohibition while making sure to keep the touch in therapeutic context would make it less important. I'm not sure whether that would be a good or bad thing.
I know that when my therapist was open to hugs, and in fact did hug me, I realized that touch wasn't really terribly important in our relationship and that emotional holding was much more comforting. If that helps any.
Posted by annierose on September 30, 2006, at 16:33:05
In reply to Re: therapy, yoga and t's comments .... » annierose, posted by Dinah on September 30, 2006, at 12:12:36
Yes, that does help. It reminds me to keep the touch aspect in perspective. The truth is --- at the end of the day, I wouldn't trade my therapist and our relationship for any other because of what we have already built together. That's not saying she is the best therapist in the world, nor am I the best client, it just means that I like what we have together.
Thank you.
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