![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:23:04
I just cant keep doing this. I know therapy is painful, and I expect that.. but this is just too much. I'm making it a new thread because it's sort of different from my thread above.. hope thats ok.
I'm going to start using names because old T/new T is just too confusing. If that isnt okay, please tell me and I wont do it again. Laurie is my T here who I've seen the last few weeks. Anne is the one at home, and the one who never seems to call back when I need her to. Anne is the one I called the other day too.
I saw Laurie today. She decided last session that I do have BPD, which I'd suspected for awhile. Today, I talked about being upset that Anne had not returned my call from Monday afternoon (see my post above for that story). I'd called anne to ask if she felt like I was manipulating her. Anyway, Laurie basically told me that calling anne to ask her that was manipulative in itself, and expecting a return call by now (from my message mon night) isnt completely reasonable. I should wait until Friday, THEN be upset, she said. I mentioned last time I tried to ask for help during a major crisis and Anne didnt call back when she said she would, and Laurie basically told me that Anne isnt my personal crisis unit and if I needed help that badly, I should go to the ER. I didnt need to be admitted... and I cant afford it with my already $30,000 in medical debt. But that didnt matter.
Laurie asked why I get upset when Anne doesnt call. I said that it makes me feel like she doesnt care about me, and it makes me feel abandoned. Laurie basically told me that that is irrational - I'm just setting myself up to get hurt and that wanting her to care like that is "just part of the bpd", as is my not feeling cared about when she doesnt call. I disagree.. I think it's pretty normal. But maybe that's the bpd talking.
On the way home from therapy, I called Anne again. My voice was shaking trying to hold back tears (and anne has never seen me cry) and I told her that I've become aware that apparently my calling her the other day was manipulative in itself and I was sorry, and she doesnt need to call back. I said that I knew saying she didnt need to call probably sounded manipulative too, but I'm truly not trying to be.. of course a little part of me hopes she'll call still, but I wont be mad/upset if she doesnt. I told her she didnt have to. I just want to think she cares a tiny bit... why is EVERYTHING I do wrong?
I'm thinking I'm going to cancel therapy with Laurie for next week, but I'm going to wait until the weekend to decide. Of course she'll think I'm just being manipulative by doing so, but really, I just cant take how painful seeing her is for me. 3 weeks ago (before I started seeing her) I felt okay about myself as a person.. now, I just want to give up. I hate myself and I dont feel like I do anything right. I really believe that. I'm just going to tell her it is honestly too painful to see her, and I need a week to think about things. Not to mention I have to go straight back into my preschool classroom from therapy... yeah, hard. I just want to shut down next time I see her and not say much.. i feel like I have to in order to protect myself. Everything I say comes out with me being the bad guy. Even if it's true, I just need someone to be nice to me for a change.... (aside from you all, of course. thanks guys.)
I'm really just venting. I feel so completely alone and hopeless. I'd call Laurie, but I know "that'd just be manipulative". And Anne wont call me back obviously (it was 2 full days before I left that message saying she didnt need to).
I know no one knows me well enough to say if Laurie is right or not. I guess I just needed someone (you all) to hear me. Thanks everyone. I dont know what I'd do if I couldnt post here. It's really my only lifeline right now.
Posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:51:14
In reply to wanting to give up therapy... long, posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:23:04
Forgot to mention one thing...
Laurie gave me a receipt for my payment today and surprise, I have a new diagnosis I didnt know about! (The dsm code is listed on the receipt)
Adjustment Disorder With Mixed Anxiety and Depressed Mood (DSM 309.28)
This is interesting because everything I read on it mentions the disorder being related to a recent stressful event/series of events, and that it usually lasts less than 6 months. I have mentioned to her that I had several bad things happen last fall which may have triggered the recurrence of my depression (family issues, the death of a little boy I danced with..) but I certainly dont think those qualify for this category. It seems to be referring to something different. I also dont really consider myself to be an anxious person (never had a panic attack, not very shy, not a big worrier.) I will certainly ask Laurie about this next time I see her, but how odd.
Posted by Jost on July 12, 2006, at 16:57:36
In reply to wanting to give up therapy... long, posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:23:04
Wishingstar, please try to hold on, I know it's really really hard now, and that you feel confused and that you need someone to hold onto and it seems that neither Laurie or Anne is there..
I wish I could give you something that would help. I wish I knew more of what Laurie said to you, and how she said it.
If you can try not to get tied up in knots about this "manipulative" thing-- about thinking that Anne and Laurie are blaming you, and saying you're a bad person who isn't worth it.
You do need to get clarity from Anne about phone calls, and contact between sessions.
Didn't she say she would have a phone session from you, if you would pay for it? Maybe you need to do that, maybe you need to check some of this out with her--
Because Im hoping she'll be kinder and more affirming of you than you can be right now. You are a good person, you don't deserve to be abandoned.
So sorry this is so hard,
Jost
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2006, at 18:57:45
In reply to wanting to give up therapy... long, posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:23:04
I don't think Laurie's being overly helpful to you. How is it helpful to put perjorative labels on you or your actions? Would compassion in discussing any behavior reduce the effectiveness?
My therapist would say Laurie's wrong, if that means anything. He'd say that a client has a right to have a phone call returned in a timely manner (even if he admits to not always doing it). And since it doesn't sound as if you call her daily or even weekly, he'd say it wasn't anywhere near close to the boundary line.
Therapists vary widely on this. Laurie's got her rules, and that's fine. But she shouldn't generalize. And I don't think it's ever fine to keep a client waiting a long time to return a call - in any profession.
My attorney ought to give them both lessons in client service. So ought my hairdresser.
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2006, at 19:04:44
In reply to wanting to give up therapy... long, posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:23:04
Oooh. Laurie's making me angry and I'm not even her client. Three times in over a year? Good grief. There's nothing wrong in that.
What Anne may be upset about is your allowing Laurie to influence your therapy with her. My therapist would be pretty mad about that. But he'd also call and tell me so.
I guess this is the downside to having more than one therapist at once. Is it possible that Anne doesn't see this as merely a break in therapy?
There are lots of therapists out there. Perhaps once you get home you could interview a few.
Maybe this is why I love my therapist so much.
Posted by rubenstein on July 12, 2006, at 19:08:41
In reply to wanting to give up therapy... long, posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:23:04
That is such a tough situation. I am sorry you are hurting. My thoughts are with you
rachel
Posted by ElaineM on July 12, 2006, at 20:31:30
In reply to wanting to give up therapy... long, posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:23:04
Wishingstar: You sound like you're at the end of your rope. I hate that you are feeling how you are. I know it really bothers me when I feel like the only reason my words are being listened to, are to diagnose me -- or, let me try again, -- when everything I say, or do, or don't do, is interpreted as a symptom. I feel like it takes away your dignity when you are not allowed to distance yourself from your diagnosis. Like, if a patient doesn't call, and they're told they're withholding or isolating, whereas the patient does call, and are told they're manipulating. How do you win?! [just as an example] Sorry, I don't want to upset you even more, but I get so frustrated by situations like the one you're describing.
I was thinking about the bill you got with the diagnosis. Perhaps she needed a code to put in signifying your short-term stint. Maybe the "adjustment" part could be another way of saying, "I'm seeing her to help her cope [depression, anxiety] with the temporary seperation [adjustment]from her regular T."
I really don't think you should terminate either relationship right now. Perhaps your idea of a "breather week" would be a better idea. Or could you ask her to not talk about your diagnosis, or the BPD stuff, but to keep the session more like supportive therapy. I think it'd be best to wait until you got home to really delve into discussions about the BPD.
I don't think you're unreasonable for expecting your call to be returned. It may not be ideal, but if paying for her to spend time on the phone with you is the only way for you to get to really talk with her right now (which sucks), then I do think a phone session is a good idea -- at least you might get a couple of answers, or reassurances. I'd try not to worry about what either T thinks, and do what is best for your state of mind now.
One thing someone else mentioned (sorry I'm forgetful) about T's not reacting well to others influencing their work with a client, is something I can relate to. I've found that T's like me to make clean-breaks with others I've worked with. As though the two competing voices would hinder my sessions, and prevent me from really focusing on either one, and the actual issues I was supposed to be working on. It's possible that something like that could be going through her head....man, I can see how speculating is tiring.
Sorry this is so long, I'm just pretty bothered by what's happening to you, and I'm concerned. Therapy can be so frustrating and confusing sometimes. Long distance interactions are always difficult, but don't give up yet. Take care of yourself. Maybe some of the little kiddies will make you smile : )
((((((WS)))))))
hugs, ELaine
Posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 21:12:44
In reply to wanting to give up therapy... long, posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:23:04
thank you so much everyone... I cant tell you how much it helps that you guys are supporting me and I'm not crazy.
I want to reply more but I just cant really get it together enough to do it right now. I'll respond to everyone tomorrow. Thanks everyone.
Posted by sleepygirl on July 12, 2006, at 22:02:57
In reply to wanting to give up therapy... long, posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:23:04
> Laurie asked why I get upset when Anne doesnt call. I said that it makes me feel like she doesnt care about me, and it makes me feel abandoned. Laurie basically told me that that is irrational - I'm just setting myself up to get hurt and that wanting her to care like that is "just part of the bpd", as is my not feeling cared about when she doesnt call. I disagree.. I think it's pretty normal. But maybe that's the bpd talking.
yeah...I think that's "just part of being human"
why does it *have* to be attached to a label?
it doesn't do much for dealing with the emotions in my opinion
You DO NOT strike me as someone who lacks a reasonable ability to be reflective. I think exploring why it upsets you might be more productive...like where that comes from as opposed to what it's called
I mean Geez! I hate how lousy you're feeling about this! and the "just" part of the "just part of bpd" phrase really feels kind of dismissive to meagain, I think we have to think about what constitutes "manipulative" - we hope to engender a lot of different reactions from other people, unconsciously or otherwise and it's not always considered a bad thing
and what is that crap about it not being "rational"? well yeah, feelings are very often not rational, that's why they wreak havoc in our lives!!
...but they are our lives, who we are, how we come to see and expect things from the worldoh yeah, I'm totally not objective here
but it comes from this....I truly believe - and I don't believe much ;-)
that it is extremely difficult to mourn things and truly own and understand our feelings a bit unless we can truly feel accepted and cared aboutI'm not saying that you can't decide consciously how you will respond to disappointment, or what your expectations might be, but the feelings might be there anyway...and it ain't wrong
end of rant
Posted by antigua on July 13, 2006, at 9:45:55
In reply to wanting to give up therapy... long, posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:23:04
Hi, I'm sorry you are feeling so badly. It must be hard to have TWO Ts at the same time who don't seem supportive enough. I agree w/Dinah, it must be extremely difficult to have two being hard with you at the same time when what you need right now is some love and support.
Have you ever been to a butterfly garden? It's a wonderful thing, having all these colorful, lightweight creatures just flying around you. They light on you and before you notice they've taken off and another one has taken its place. There is no fear; I find it very peaceful. Think of being surrounded by all that good feeling, and it protecting you from the hurt you are feeling. Trust yourself, trust your instincts; despite two Ts, you still know yourself better than they do.
I don't know you, but you definitely don't sound manipulative to me. You hurt and are asking for some support and love, which you are entitled to getting. Maybe it's the diagnosis getting in the way--I don't know, but you do have a right to find a way to get your needs met.
best,
antigua
Posted by wishingstar on July 13, 2006, at 20:52:10
In reply to wanting to give up therapy... long, posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:23:04
I finally have it "together" enough tonight to hopefully make a coherent response.. thank you again everyone for the kind responses and support. I cant even tell you how much it helps. Last night I cried harder than I'd cried in years. I didnt know I had it in me. Therapy shouldnt make me feel worse about myself...
I'm going to try to respond to everyone in a mass comment.
You all are right, I do need to clarify the calling thing with Anne. She did say she'd do a phone session if I paid her, which I'd be willing to do.. but I think I'm just too angry and too hurt right now to deal with her in any form but in person. I need to be able to see her and see her react. Plus, the phone is (obviously) a very scary and hard thing for me right now. I cant trust it with her. What is happening with Anne hurts just as much, if not more, than what Laurie is doing... mostly because I've been with Anne longer and trusted her to care about me. The feeling of being dropped and abandoned by her mirrors my experiences growing up exactly.Everything Laurie is saying is hard. 3 weeks ago, I had only 1 thing that was really comforting to me.. I'd say to myself, "you are who you are no matter where you are or what you're doing" or something similar.. it helped me to focus inward and pull out some strength. I was able to feel proud of who I was inside, at least to some degree. In 3 sessions though, that has been completely wiped out. It doesnt work at all... it actually makes it worse. I feel completely worthless and hate myself for the things Laurie has pointed out. If I really do all the things she suggested, and havent realized it... well gee, no wonder I have such trouble with relationships. I cant help but think that I really just need to drop off the face of the earth.. it feels like there's no other good option. (I'm not actively suicidal, just hurting). I know it may not be true, but it sure feels true now.
Antigua, I like the idea of the butterfly garden. To be honest, I think that many butterflies might freak me out a little bit, but I can imagine it might be nice once I got there. I really value my personal introspective time and that sounds like it could be very peaceful. I live right near the DC area, so there must be one local.. I'll definitely look into that.
I want to thank everyone who said I dont sound manipulative and similar things. Deep down, I dont FEEL manipulative, most of the time anyway.. even when I try to look at it objectively. I've only seen Laurie for 3 weeks now and I need to keep in mind that she doesnt know me as well as she thinks she does. I have a history of SI that she didnt know about until a few weeks ago (even though I've seen her in the past for therapy) so that may have been what made her jump for the BPD label. But even if it is true, I just hate that she cant hear anythnig I say outside of the diagnostic categories. But if she's so sure, why is "adjustment disorder" listed on my receipt? (Adjustment to what, anyway?) But aside from that logical stuff, it's hard. It's still possible she's right, and Annes ignoring behavior seems to reinforce that for me.
But I'm not crazy, right? :( Rhetorical question there.
I did call Laurie and leave a message last night. It sounded something like this: "Hi Laurie, I know I shouldnt be calling and that you'll say it's manipulative, but I just have to get this out because it'll be hard for me to say next week. I feel like you're pushing way too hard and trusting that I can take way more than I really can. I'm sorry if that sounds manipulative but I just had to say it. I dont expect you to call me back. See you next week."
That sounds completely honest and non-manipulative to me, but I'm sure it'll be "wrong" somehow. But I figure at $75 an hour (and that's the reduced rate!) I get to choose what I want. I guess there's a little bit of anger mixed in with all this hurt.. heh.Going to respond to a couple of the responses individually as this is getting too long and confusing for me.
Posted by wishingstar on July 13, 2006, at 21:00:05
In reply to wishingstar is a great person.... » wishingstar, posted by sleepygirl on July 12, 2006, at 22:02:57
thank you for the subject line.. I wish people in my "real" life (in person) thought so right now.
I love this one thing you said, objective or not :) ... that it's "difficult to mourn things and truly own and understand our feelings a bit unless we can truly feel accepted and cared about". I TOTALLY agree. I'm not even necessairly opposed to examining whether or not some of my behavior may be manipulative, but when I tell Laurie something that really hurt me badly and my reponse to it, and she labels my response manipulative, it only makes it hurt worse. I just needed a "there, there, its ok". I agree, labeling bpd or anything else doesnt help the fact that it HURTS.It's funny because I ran across an add listing for Anne once online, and in her description she had written that she believes the key to healing is to feel thouroughly heard and listened to.. just a little ironic, huh?
And good point, I wouldnt be in therapy if my feelings were all rational. I know theyre not rational. I didnt need anyone to point it out. It's like an extra slap on top of the wound already there.
I really appreciate your post. I think my rational side of a few weeks ago, tiny as it is right now, and you would agree on a lot of things. I'm feeling pretty ok right now so it's easy for me to see this, but last night.. no way.
I just have to get over the "but what if she's right?" Just because she's a T doesnt mean she knows everything... that's what I'm trying to tell myself anyway.
Posted by Racer on July 13, 2006, at 21:06:57
In reply to finally a response, posted by wishingstar on July 13, 2006, at 20:52:10
A couple of quick notes:
"Adjustment disorder" is used a lot as a dx, because it's kinda meaningless. It is a legitimate dx, the insurance companies cover it -- it's Axis I, which is usually covered; Axis II isn't generally covered, and that's where BPD is listed -- it's pretty innocuous, so therapists use it as the dx rather than something that might be more accurate but also have some element of judgement in it. Also, if Laurie is considering you as a BPD client, she'll need to use something on Axis I for the dx on the paperwork. (And even if there's no insurance, the paperwork will stay pretty much the same.) Our marriage counselor lists "Adjustment Disorder" as my husband's dx on her paperwork -- in her words, he's adjusting to marriage. Really, it's just to satisfy the insurance company.
And then, about the message you left for Laurie, you might want to avoid saying things like:
>>I know I shouldnt be calling and that you'll say it's manipulative, but...
When I read that, my gut reaction is, "whatever follows will be manipulative..." It's not that I think you're manipulative -- I don't know you, you've never tried to manipulate me -- it's just that disclaimers like that always get my back up. Maybe saying something like, "Hi, you don't have to call me back, but I wanted to tell you that I feel as though you're pushing too hard right now, and I'm not sure I can say that in person next week." Just leave out anything about how she might perceive it. Kinda like the "I statements" here, you know? If she feels as though it's manipulative, she can bring it up herself. Otherwise, assume that you're expressing something that maybe you won't be able to in person and that Any Reasonable Person will understand.
Wishingstar, I had a terrible experience a couple of years ago with a lousy T -- she even tried to dx me with BPD, despite meeting pretty much NONE of the criteria for it -- and it did a lot of lasting damage in a very, very short time. I'm still not over it, despite more than two years since I saw her for the last time. I urge you to be very careful, and consider whether you might want to check into other options for therapy...
Take care, and good luck. I hope Laurie hears you, and pays attention to what she hears.
Posted by wishingstar on July 13, 2006, at 21:08:46
In reply to Re: wanting to give up therapy... long, posted by ElaineM on July 12, 2006, at 20:31:30
Thank you elaine. I am at the end of my rope. I really am. I thought I was there a few weeks ago, but I guess now the rope is starting to fray and I'm holding into the little twisted parts that are hanging off the edge. Hah.
You definitely didnt upset me more.. knowing you understand helps a lot. You're right, there's no way to win. No matter what I do, I'm wrong. All Anne ever tells me is "ask for help when you need it, dont be afraid to be vulnerable, you can trust me, i'll wait until youre ready" and on and on... but then when I try, she really isnt there, and it's suddenly manipulative. So basically, be vulnerable, need people, and ask for what you need, but dont expect to get it. Heck, I can get that from my family for a LOT cheaper than 50 min of therapy costs me. I get it every day! If I need to feel worthless, my family is here. I dont need Anne and especially Laurie to help.
I'm not sure about the adjustment disorder diagnosis. Everything I read seemed to specify a stressful life event (something like a divorce came to mind) that a person wasnt able to deal with, sort of an offshoot of ptsd. I'm wondering if it's just my old diagnosis in her books from years ago, when I was seriously depressed and reacting strongly to an emotional abandonment by my family... but if so, then it sort of negates her current argument that my family was always unfair and hurtful to me. If they were always hurtful, then it wouldnt be an adjustment disorder (because that seems to be a more short-term response issue).. I dont get it. I will definitely ask her next time I see her.
The speculation is killing me. I know I should just accept that I wont figure it out, but these 2 people are, in different ways, the center of my emotional life right now. Really the only part of my emotional life outside of myself. I think sometimes therapists dont understand how significant their jobs really are and how much they effect us with their behaviors, positive or negative. I wish they did.
Your support and all helps so much. Thanks.
Posted by wishingstar on July 13, 2006, at 21:13:23
In reply to Re: finally a response » wishingstar, posted by Racer on July 13, 2006, at 21:06:57
Racer, thanks for the information on the adjustment disorder stuff. That definitely helps me to understand it better. I completely understand the need for "something on paper" and dont have any problem with it at all.. it just caught me off gaurd, I guess. But hearing your experience helps.
Regarding the phone message, I guess the reason I said "I know youll think this is manipulative, but..." was to put it out there that I was aware of what I was doing and had considered all the angles. It was also because everything I said to her the last few sessions, even things that felt very neutral to me, got labeled as manipulative, so I didnt want her to think I was just continuing to act in that way and not hear what she was telling me. But I added that I "just needed to get it out there" in the message because even if she thinks it was inappropriate, it's something I had to do and will not back down from that. If she cant handle me telling her shes pushing too hard, that's her problem. I'm the one paying her, you know? Who knows, maybe I shouldnt have said it.. I'm sure she'll tell me exactly what she thinks later. I'm just trying my best. :(
Thanks for your support.
Posted by wishingstar on July 14, 2006, at 6:10:43
In reply to Re: wanting to give up therapy... long » wishingstar, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2006, at 18:57:45
I’d just written out a long response to you and my power went out! No storm or anything, just gone. I went to bed last night and it still wasn’t back, but I guess its back now.
You’re right, Laurie isn’t being overly helpful. I’m really not opposed to looking at my behaviors, even the bad ones… but a little compassion would help, yes. It’s hard. Lack of awareness isn’t my problem as much as lack of feeling okay with myself and feeling cared about is. I just want to be okay and have someone understand that I’m trying. I really am.
Yes, I’ve only called three times. The first being about 3 months ago, again 2-3 weeks ago, and the last time this past Monday. I really wasn’t expecting Anne to be my personal crisis team, and I didn’t think I was acting that way.. but I don’t know. They tell me “be vulnerable, ask for help, etc etc” but then at the same time, I’m somehow asking for something I don’t deserve and they wont give? Huh?
It is possible that Anne is having a problem with me seeing someone else. I was hesitant to even bring up the idea originally because I was aware of that potential problem, but we discussed the options together and she seemed fine with my decision. It was really just a practical issue – driving time, work schedules, etc. If that’s a problem, I wish she’d tell me that. When I called 2-3 weeks ago, I asked to speak to her (anne) because things were bad and also asked o n the voice mail if it was okay for me to call her, since I’m not seeing her right now… she didn’t mention that when we talked, but as we hung up said goodbye until I needed to call again. I don’t know. I understand the use of boundaries in therapy, but sometimes I think a little information would be helpful. Otherwise it’s a giant shot in the dark. We’re both playing this game, but she’s the only one who knows the rules. If it’s not okay for me to call her until I’m back in town, I just wish she’d tell me. I wish she’d just tell me SOMETHING. Sorry, end of rant.
It does help to know that your therapist feels the way he does about phone calls. It helps me to know that I’m not crazy or dreaming up some fantasy therapist that is ideal but unrealistic.. I’m not asking for anything unusual (at least regarding this). This is my rational side talking.. hopefully my emotions will catch up in the next few days. But I’m not sure. Self-protection is kicking in strong right now, and that isn’t very conducive to helpful therapy, for me anyway. He sounds like he is really wonderful.
The question I cant get over, even with Laurie’s theory, is… why is Anne acting like this now, if a year ago she cared enough to even give me her cell phone number when I was having a particularly hard time? No reason to try to guess, I know, but it sure sounds like I’ve done something wrong. Laurie is reinforcing that very strongly, and her theory that I’m just horribly manipulative is as good as any. This is a bad, never-ending cycle I’ve gotten myself into and I just cant find the way out. No therapy at all has to be better than this.
Thank you Dinah, I always appreciate your responses. It helps to know I’m not alone.
Posted by wishingstar on July 14, 2006, at 19:58:50
In reply to wanting to give up therapy... long, posted by wishingstar on July 12, 2006, at 16:23:04
I was feeling particularly good this afternoon on my way home from work and decided to do something good for myself.
I called Anne and asked for an appointment. Interestingly, she called back about 2 hours later (that was fast, when she doesnt call back when I'm upset for 2 days..) and we set an appointment for next Thursday. I'll have to leave work early and drive 2 hours to get there, but at least I can (hopefully) get some questions answered. I've realized that I'm destroying our relationship in my head, and if it needs to be destroyed, fine.. but if I want until I'm back in town (5 weeks or so) to talk to her, it'll probably be shattered beyond repair, perhaps unnecessairly. It;s better to deal with Anne and just figure it out. Can you tell I'm feeling oddly proactive right now?
I also talked to Laurie briefly today. I had to cancel next weeks appointment due to a scheduling problem. We worked that out, then she mentioned my other message (when I said she was pushing too hard the other night). She said "it's never manipulative to tell your therapist what you need" and that she was glad I told her. It felt really good to hear that.. but I still dont feel safe with her. Hopefully when I see her again in 2 weeks we can discuss it.
Honestly, without you all, I wouldnt have called Anne for that appointment. I wouldnt have trusted myself and my opinions enough, but hearing that you all agreed with me gave me the courage to do it. Thank you everyone for being here.
Posted by Jost on July 14, 2006, at 21:22:52
In reply to made an appointment with anne, posted by wishingstar on July 14, 2006, at 19:58:50
Calling Anne is a huge accomplishment. I'm so glad you took that good impulse and good mood and acted so positively for yourself!
Seeing Anne is the only way to check out her vision, rather than being trapped with the frightening, rejecting thoughts you imagine she could have.
Of course, you'll have to interpret the reality-- but -- getting more reality to think about-- that's such a brave step. I know it doesn't solve everything-- but it's great-- I'm really happy for you, wishingstar.
Jost
.
Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2006, at 21:40:40
In reply to made an appointment with anne, posted by wishingstar on July 14, 2006, at 19:58:50
I think that's a wise idea. Right now you're letting Laurie tell you what Anne is thinking, and there's no way she can do that. How could she?
Posted by Tamar on July 19, 2006, at 3:17:07
In reply to finally a response, posted by wishingstar on July 13, 2006, at 20:52:10
Hi wishingstar,
Sorry, I'm a bit late to this thread. And sorry you’ve been having such a hard time with therapy.
I haven’t read the whole thread because I have to go out in a minute, but what you said really spoke to me. I’ve been trying to get my therapist to hear me for months but when I tell him what I want he ignores it or dismisses it.
I thought of a few things about your situation:
1. Laurie really doesn’t know what Anne thinks or feels. I remember once I mentioned to the sex therapist I was seeing that I wanted to write a letter to my regular therapist. She said he probably wouldn’t read it because therapy needs to happen in the therapy room. As it turns out, she was wrong; I brought it up with my regular T and he said he would read a letter if I sent him one. So therapists can’t read each other’s minds any more than they can read ours. Laurie could be quite wrong about Anne’s view of the situation.
2. I hate the word ‘manipulative’. If therapists say clients are manipulative it infantilises us. I don’t think you are trying to control either of your therapists in any way. You want a particular response from them and if you don’t get it you’re trying different ways to get it. I call that tenacity, not manipulation. It indicates your commitment to the therapeutic relationship. It suggests you have a strong belief in the therapeutic alliance. It’s not a bad thing at all, in my view. The word ‘manipulative’ should be banned from therapy sessions.
3. It sounds to me that what you are looking for is validation. You want your therapists to understand just how desperately awful you feel. It seems to me that unless they’re prepared to acknowledge that you feel really terrible they can’t help you to feel better. They have to meet you where you are. I can understand that they want you to move from simply feeling awful to being able to talk about the awfulness of it… but I don’t see how they can expect you to do that unless they at least acknowledge where you’re coming from.
4. It sounds to me as if Anne has not been clear with you about her boundaries. She needs to tell you what you can reasonably expect from her if you want to contact her outside your therapy appointments. This means that she needs to have clear boundaries and be prepared to stick to them. If she doesn’t have clear boundaries, or if she has never really considered how available she is prepared to be outside your sessions, then she is doing you a disservice. And of course Laurie doesn’t know what Anne’s boundaries are, so it’s not necessarily helpful for her to tell you to wait until Friday before getting upset about the lack of a phone call. And by the way, I think Laurie needs to be clear with you about her own boundaries.
I really don’t think this is a hopeless situation. But I honestly do think that both your therapists need to be able to be very explicit with you about what they will and will not do. That in itself would help. If Anne can’t be available at the other end of a phone, she could give you a list of people you could call instead, like for example the Samaritans or any mental health help lines in your area. It’s better than nothing. I think it’s entirely reasonable for you to know how to find support outside your sessions.
So… you’re not doing it wrong. Not at all. And I think it’s great that you’re able to be so honest with your therapists. I hope they will appreciate your honesty and do whatever they can to help you to cope when you feel desperate.
Tamar
This is the end of the thread.
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