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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 13:49:28
Sorry I haven’t been very communicative recently. I’m having a really hard time at the moment: I’m feeling horribly depressed and my diabetes is spiralling out of control for no obvious reason.
Therapy is still hard. We had a session a couple of days ago and it went pretty well until the very end, when he said he thought perhaps I might want something from him. And of course I wants lots of things from him, but he never seems to want to discuss that. So I said, “What can you give me?” And he looked away for a long time (well, it seemed long, and I was trying to figure out whether he was annoyed at me). Then he looked up and he said that I don’t have to feel this way. That was OK with me because I understood what he meant, by my inner 18 year-old wanted to smack him. She said, “You know, what I *really* want is to be able to remember what you look like between sessions.” (We had been talking about that earlier.) And he told me that he thought what I really wanted was to be able to hang onto my internal representation of him, and that my internal representation of him didn’t need to have a face. And I gave up. If he can’t understand that I want to know what he looks like, I don’t see the point of continuing.
I have never felt so sh*t leaving therapy, even when we’ve been talking about very difficult things.
I accept that he may be right. Perhaps I don’t need to know what he looks like. But I *want* to know what he looks like. Why the f*ck can we not talk about that? And in fact, he may also be wrong. I might actually *need* to know what he looks like. How can he know what I need? How can he make that decision without exploring it and discussing it with me?
I want to phone and cancel my next appointment. I don’t think I will. But I’m desperate now. I can’t go on like this. My 18 year-old wants to misbehave. She wants to email him, phone him at home, drive past his house, send him books, sit in her car outside his office and watch him coming and going… I think she hopes that behaving badly will get his attention. I’m very sure she’s wrong. But it frightens me. I haven’t felt like this before. I haven’t wanted to misbehave purely to get attention since I was a small child.
I’m scared…
Posted by caraher on June 30, 2006, at 14:32:21
In reply to This isn't fun any more, posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 13:49:28
Sorry you're not doing so well.
Regarding this latest session I have a question and a semi-suggestion. The question is whether you couldn't start your next session by insisting on exploring the question of your needing/wanting to know what he looks like? Perhaps I simply fail to grasp how evasive he may be when it comes to this question, and you really have tried to confront this issue. But reading your post I get the impression that your 18-year-old is voicing all these things inside your head and not through your lips.
What your T says may be true, but he may simply be failing to recognize the degree to which some people find the visual image important to making the connections he says, perhaps rightly, you really need.
The semi-suggestion is that your 18-year-old might engage in a single act of misbehavior by taking a picture of him. Then you'd be able to have an image to hold onto between sessions. But when you talk about wanting to misbehave in order to get attention I'm not sure whether allowing that one small piece of mischief would really get you what you want. Is it *his* attention you want? Or attention from others, either specific other people or from "people in general?" It would be scary to feel that way, and it would be nice if there were some way to figure out what your genuine needs are in order to meet those and lessen the impulse toward these probably unhealthy desires.
Posted by Dinah on June 30, 2006, at 16:15:32
In reply to This isn't fun any more, posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 13:49:28
I had that same problem with my therapist. Still do I guess.
I understand the impulse too. Keep trying to reason with yourself. Acting out has never has gotten me what I want. :( For me carrying through the fantasy to the likely actual outcome decreases my desire to misbehave.
(((((Tamar)))))
It sounds like you've been pretty clear about what it is you're looking for from him? Do you think he's able to give it? If not, do you think you can adjust your expectations of him? Lowered expectations have always been my choice of action. I'm too dependent to keep my expectations and lose my therapist.
Posted by ElaineM on June 30, 2006, at 16:41:35
In reply to This isn't fun any more, posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 13:49:28
Tamar, I'm sorry that you're unwell and feeling so down. I can understand how you're frustrated (it makes me frustrated only reading it). I also have had a really hard time remembering faces when there is a gap between seeing people. It sometimes can reach panic-mode when I can't access people in my head - like they've disappeared, if I can't always see them infront of me. It's a pretty frantic feeling. You sound a bit like that.
I've been allowed to take a picture of one of my T's before. Have you ever mentioned that to him? If not a picture, does he ever let you keep a memento or something? Or is that just something he's always evasive about. I think it makes alot of sense for you to feel that you need to hold onto his actual image. The best I can describe it is, when I couldn't, it was almost like meeting a stranger every session. I had to have faith in the consistency of the idea AND image of her, before the trust could come.
I don't know if that's exactly how you feel, but I think talking about a picture would be worth a shot. I just don't know how your T would react. I don't understand some of his respones. (though to be fair to you both, I only know of him from a few threads)
I'm so sorry that you can't get any comfort from therapy right now, especially when you feel so scared.
Thinking of you.
With hugs, EL
Posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 17:56:41
In reply to Re: This isn't fun any more, posted by caraher on June 30, 2006, at 14:32:21
> Sorry you're not doing so well.
>
> Regarding this latest session I have a question and a semi-suggestion. The question is whether you couldn't start your next session by insisting on exploring the question of your needing/wanting to know what he looks like?It’s a good suggestion. I hope I can do it. I find it very very difficult to say I want anything from him, and whenever I manage to say it out loud he ignores it or dismisses it.
> Perhaps I simply fail to grasp how evasive he may be when it comes to this question, and you really have tried to confront this issue.
It’s not just the issue of how he looks… it’s anything at all I want from him. I suppose ultimately I want him to help me to manage the transference.
> But reading your post I get the impression that your 18-year-old is voicing all these things inside your head and not through your lips.
When I say ‘she’ said it, I mean it wasn’t the sort of thing I would normally say, but my inner 18 year-old is bolder. But it was definitely said out loud!
> What your T says may be true, but he may simply be failing to recognize the degree to which some people find the visual image important to making the connections he says, perhaps rightly, you really need.
I find visual images quite important for most things. But particularly significantly, I have real problems with people’s faces. I recognise people when I’m with them, but I struggle to remember what they look like when I’m not looking at them. Even my parents, kids and husband. So when I try to imagine my therapist, I want to imagine being in therapy with him and looking at him and I just can’t put his face together in my mind. I find it very disconcerting. I’ve told my therapist all this, but he seems to think I don’t need to know what he looks like.
> The semi-suggestion is that your 18-year-old might engage in a single act of misbehavior by taking a picture of him. Then you'd be able to have an image to hold onto between sessions.
I’d like that! I don’t think he would agree to it, so I’d have to take it from a distance when he leaves his office or something. I guess I’d need a very long lens!
> But when you talk about wanting to misbehave in order to get attention I'm not sure whether allowing that one small piece of mischief would really get you what you want. Is it *his* attention you want? Or attention from others, either specific other people or from "people in general?" It would be scary to feel that way, and it would be nice if there were some way to figure out what your genuine needs are in order to meet those and lessen the impulse toward these probably unhealthy desires.
I assume that it’s a throwback to wanting my father’s attention when I was a teenager, since I’m going through a lot of father transference at the moment. I don’t recall being deliberately naughty in order to get my father’s attention, because usually when I disobeyed it was because I disagreed with him. But unconsciously I might have been trying to get my father’s attention. Now I want my therapist to help me handle the things I want from him that I can’t have, and I’m having trouble dealing with what I perceive as his avoidance of it. He either ignores the things I say I want, or he simply tells me it’s not possible. I know it’s not possible, of course. I just want him to help me deal with that.
I’m thinking of leaving therapy, but I don’t know if I can do it face-to-face. I don’t know if I have the courage to walk away. I might send him a letter instead. I keep thinking I’ll try to tell him one more time what I want and need, but at the moment it seems pointless. If he didn’t hear me every other time, he won’t hear me next week.
Posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 19:14:51
In reply to Re: This isn't fun any more » Tamar, posted by Dinah on June 30, 2006, at 16:15:32
> I understand the impulse too. Keep trying to reason with yourself. Acting out has never has gotten me what I want. :( For me carrying through the fantasy to the likely actual outcome decreases my desire to misbehave.Yeah. I don’t like the idea of the outcome. But I feel so desperate.
> It sounds like you've been pretty clear about what it is you're looking for from him? Do you think he's able to give it? If not, do you think you can adjust your expectations of him? Lowered expectations have always been my choice of action. I'm too dependent to keep my expectations and lose my therapist.Maybe he really isn’t able to help with this. But then I wonder if there’s any point continuing. I can’t help the father transference. It’s driving me nuts. If he can’t help me deal with it, is there any point in doing therapy with him?
Posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 19:47:01
In reply to Re: This isn't fun any more » Tamar, posted by ElaineM on June 30, 2006, at 16:41:35
Hi Elaine,
> It sometimes can reach panic-mode when I can't access people in my head - like they've disappeared, if I can't always see them infront of me. It's a pretty frantic feeling. You sound a bit like that.
Yes, that’s it! I do feel a bit frantic. I want to reach out and find him and he’s not there.
> I've been allowed to take a picture of one of my T's before. Have you ever mentioned that to him? If not a picture, does he ever let you keep a memento or something? Or is that just something he's always evasive about. I think it makes alot of sense for you to feel that you need to hold onto his actual image. The best I can describe it is, when I couldn't, it was almost like meeting a stranger every session. I had to have faith in the consistency of the idea AND image of her, before the trust could come.
Gosh, I love the idea of having a picture of him. I think it’s great that your former therapist let you take a picture. You’re right: it’s about consistency of both idea and image. And I need them both in order to feel the trust. I will ask him and see what he says.
> I don't know if that's exactly how you feel, but I think talking about a picture would be worth a shot. I just don't know how your T would react. I don't understand some of his respones. (though to be fair to you both, I only know of him from a few threads)
Ha ha! No, I don’t understand some of his responses either. To be fair to him, he has made it clear that he is committed to doing therapy with me. I just wish I could get him to understand why I want the things I can’t have…
> I'm so sorry that you can't get any comfort from therapy right now, especially when you feel so scared.
>
> Thinking of you.
> With hugs, EL(((((Elaine))))) Thanks so much. And I’m sorry I haven’t replied to your thread yet. There’s so much I want to say and yet I can’t seem to find the right words of comfort and support. I’m very inarticulate when I’m depressed. But I’m thinking of you too, and desperately wishing I could do something to make things easier for you.
Tamar
Posted by crushedout on June 30, 2006, at 21:58:46
In reply to This isn't fun any more, posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 13:49:28
Tamar,
I feel like I've been going through a very similar sequence of feelings about my T today, after our 20 min session. She was disagreeing with everything I said and then she said something (that to me sounded like it was in an exasperated tone, about my drug use): "well, as I've told you many times before, that's not my specialty." it felt very dismissive. and i've been fantasizing quitting therapy and other stuff.
at the end i tried to break the tension with a joke and she just said, "well too bad we're out of time and we can't discuss that strange comment" or something like that. it felt yucky.
Posted by Jost on June 30, 2006, at 23:36:12
In reply to Re: This isn't fun any more » Tamar, posted by crushedout on June 30, 2006, at 21:58:46
Visual images are really important. For me, they definitely are--maybe for some reason, your T doesn't need them, or takes them for granted.
I'm sorry you're having such a hard time, however, Tamar. Periods of not-matching or of missing one another can be draining, and almost impossible to sustain. But if you've had times of good relationship, there may be value in trying to stay.
I have photos of my T, which I took quite a while ago. I had almost no ability to hold onto a sense of his presence internally-- the place where he should be was just blank or black, when I tried to locate it.Taking the photos helped me feel more connected; and having them, even when I wasn't looking at them, provided a sense of security. In a way, I didn't really recognize him in them-- but they helped anyway. Or I did, and didn't at the same time. But I got real comfort from having them. Esp. looking at them made it a little easier to imagine that he actually existed somewhere.
Even if my internal sense of him isn't primarily visual-- it helps that I can remember the photos (in a way more than I remember his actual face, strangely). Maybe it's connecting the internal and external, presence here and presence there--continuity-- which takes place gradually and in phases over time.
Jost
Posted by muffled on June 30, 2006, at 23:46:52
In reply to This isn't fun any more, posted by Tamar on June 30, 2006, at 13:49:28
> Therapy is still hard. We had a session a couple of days ago and it went pretty well until the very end, when he said he thought perhaps I might want something from him.
**what did he mean by that?
And of course I wants lots of things from him, but he never seems to want to discuss that. So I said, “What can you give me?” And he looked away for a long time (well, it seemed long, and I was trying to figure out whether he was annoyed at me). Then he looked up and he said that I don’t have to feel this way.
**What does he mean by you don't have to feel this way?
Sorry I'm alittle dense.That was OK with me because I understood what he meant, by my inner 18 year-old wanted to smack him. She said, “You know, what I *really* want is to be able to remember what you look like between sessions.” (We had been talking about that earlier.)
**I'm with your inner 18 yr. old. My T has a pic in an advertisement for their practice. Its small and hard to see, but I bet I've looked at it 1000 times. I don't need to much anymore. I also have a recorded message she once left on my machine that was real nice, sometimes I listen
to that. Esp. after a longer break btwn. sessions. One time after a long break (long to ME anyways!)I actually popped in to her office just so I could actually SEE her visually the day b4 my appt. I felt ridiculous. But my inside kid needed to be convinced she still existed or something.And he told me that he thought what I really wanted was to be able to hang onto my internal representation of him,
**what the hell is THAT supposed to mean. It means NOTHING to me. I lose my mental grasp of my T within about 24 hrs. Its just gone. It doesn't seem real anymore. Less so now, but still so.
and that my internal representation of him didn’t need to have a face. And I gave up. If he can’t understand that I want to know what he looks like, I don’t see the point of continuing.
**Can you maybe give it one last try and bring in this post that you posted, or even this one.
Just in case you do......HEY YOU, TAMARS T, GET A GRIP, TAMAR IS SMART, LISTEN TO HER.
Faces are so important. I forget them too. Its awful really, cuz I fear that people will think I don't care when I don't remember faces, or names, or details, I DO, I just can't seem to retain the info.
>
> I have never felt so sh*t leaving therapy, even when we’ve been talking about very difficult things.**Its awful when we try so hard about something and the T just doesn't get it. I've run into that a time or two.
Is it you in therapy session, or mostly someone else? Maybe whoever is there is not being very clear, she may think she is, but mebbe she's not? Would you be able to tape a session to relisten to and assess? Just to be sure?
>
> I accept that he may be right. Perhaps I don’t need to know what he looks like.
But I *want* to know what he looks like. Why the f*ck can we not talk about that? And in fact, he may also be wrong. I might actually *need* to know what he looks like. How can he know what I need? How can he make that decision without exploring it and discussing it with me?**IMHO it helps ALOT to be able to know what they look like. Just to maintain the connection btwn. sessions.
>
> I want to phone and cancel my next appointment. I don’t think I will. But I’m desperate now. I can’t go on like this. My 18 year-old wants to misbehave. She wants to email him, phone him at home, drive past his house, send him books, sit in her car outside his office and watch him coming and going… I think she hopes that behaving badly will get his attention. I’m very sure she’s wrong. But it frightens me. I haven’t felt like this before. I haven’t wanted to misbehave purely to get attention since I was a small child.**Maybe its not your 18 yr old that wants this, maybe its a younger one. Can you get the calm adult mom Tamar to talk to the younger one. Talk to her like she is a little kid cuz she IS. Took me the LONGEST time to really understand that, and things went much smoother after that. I seem to only be able to do this in writing. Very rarely can I communicate in other ways.
>
> I’m scared…
>
**Its ok to be scared. But you are ok. Just the fact that your scared is a good sign really.
Yeah, the misbehaving proly won't get you far.
Seems like asking straight out hasn't helped much, no wonder you frustrated, I would be too.
If your T don't 'get it' next week , maybe its time for a new T? I know its a crazy hard thing, but if you focus on the idea, dream, of someone 'getting it' and how WONDERFUL that would feel, well, maybe that could give you incentive to push on.
You've really been struggling hard awhile Tamar.
Have you changed your meds. at all?
I've started seroquel(off label use for anxiety). I take an extrordinarily small dose, but it has calmed me some, and helped me be more in reality I suppose. No side effects so far that I'm aware of....
So anyways, meds can make a huge diff. good or bad.
Maybe something needs to change....
Tamar, you are a kind and considerate, articulate, wonderful gift in the world.
Its hard now, but it will get better.
Take special care,
Cuz we care so much bout you.
Muffy
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