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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tamar on May 31, 2006, at 15:07:08
I'm exhausted...
I had a really tiring but useful discussion with my therapist today. He apologised many times for forgetting, and he took complete responsibility for it. And we had a long chat about how theory relates to practice. And he said it was a good sign that I'd told him how I felt and maybe we can repair things between us.
He asked me what I thought might put it right and I was SO tempted to say, "How about a hug?" But I would only have been messing with him.
I also vented a few related frustrations, like how I hate the language games we play in therapy and how hard it is to express myself naturally. I said I wished we could just have a normal conversation.
He said that therapy has a unique language because it's a unique relationship, and I said that lots of contexts have unique languages (law courts, classrooms, hospital wards etc). I guess I still resist the 'therapy is unlike everything else' idea.
One thing he said was particularly interesting: he asked me if I thought I was in competition with him. I was quite surprised. I'm not a terribly competitive person, and I said I didn't see how we could possibly compete in therapy since there's no field to compete on. We're coming from very different perspectives. But there's obviously something going on that prompted him to ask the question...
So now I'm really tired and just about ready for bed.
And by the way I really like all these letters people are writing to themselves. Maybe when I'm feeling more awake I'll try that...
Love,
Tamar
Posted by annierose on May 31, 2006, at 18:02:07
In reply to Yawn..., posted by Tamar on May 31, 2006, at 15:07:08
That is an interesting question. I told my T a few months back that suddenly I felt competitive towards her. And then time was up and we never got back to that conversation. And I can't remember the context that I said it in.
I'm so so so so so glad that things are on the mend with your T. It can lift your spirits in ways that people don't understand. And that he acknowledged his shortcomings last week is big.
Posted by Dinah on May 31, 2006, at 18:15:16
In reply to Yawn..., posted by Tamar on May 31, 2006, at 15:07:08
I always feel sleepy after a meaningful session.
I'm glad you were able to express your anger and work through it to come to feel better about your therapist. I call it "fighting to relationship".
Posted by caraher on May 31, 2006, at 22:47:13
In reply to Yawn..., posted by Tamar on May 31, 2006, at 15:07:08
>He said that therapy has a unique language because it's a unique relationship, and I said that lots of contexts have unique languages (law courts, classrooms, hospital wards etc). I guess I still resist the 'therapy is unlike everything else' idea.
>
> One thing he said was particularly interesting: he asked me if I thought I was in competition with him. I was quite surprised. I'm not a terribly competitive person, and I said I didn't see how we could possibly compete in therapy since there's no field to compete on. We're coming from very different perspectives. But there's obviously something going on that prompted him to ask the question...I think your answer lies in what you wrote before the question about competition. Perhaps he takes your challenge to the assertion that therapy is a unique relationship as a sign of intellectual competition?
I shall now indulge in some psychobabble myself and express satisfaction that he "took ownership" of his mistake. I'm glad it was a productive session and hope your post-yawn rest is refreshing
Posted by Daisym on June 1, 2006, at 0:49:07
In reply to Yawn..., posted by Tamar on May 31, 2006, at 15:07:08
A therapist that can admit his mistakes is a keeper. He didn't gaslight you, he owned it. Good for him.
I don't know why you are competing with your therapist but I can tell you how I compete with mine. I research and read and try to figure myself out so that I don't make any mistakes in therapy. I don't know if I'm competing with him or the ghosts of all his other clients, trying to be the "best" messed up person he sees. It is a defense of mine to try to know what he is doing or what he might be thinking or what technique he might employ. I want to catch my unconscious doing unconscious things, before he does.
And the language thing -- yes, I hate that. I think I just posted about something like that. It makes you want to sit terribly still and only nod your head occasionally.
I'm glad you are fighting for what you need. That was very brave.
Posted by fairywings on June 3, 2006, at 16:32:25
In reply to Yawn..., posted by Tamar on May 31, 2006, at 15:07:08
I'm so glad it went so well Tamar....don't those kinds of sessions always make you feel so good? It is really good you told him how you felt. Carrying that around would really eat a person up.
I'm sure I've heard the language, but I'm not sure I completely understand....what language is it? I know sometimes I feel like my T is telling me a story to tell me something w/o actually coming right out and saying it. I want to say....yeah, I get it, so why don't you just come right out and tell me what you have to say instead of telling me this story, but I love his stories, so I'd never say that.
I had to laugh when daisy said she wants to know what kind of (can't remember the word she used) he might employ. I catch mine now...esp. when he tries to "normalize" things. It's funny - I call him on it now - like don't you try to get me to admit to something, or tell you something by being round about....just come out and ask me! ; )
Competitive....hmmmm....that's interesting. Wonder what he meant. Hope you find out.
fw
Posted by Tamar on June 4, 2006, at 6:19:44
In reply to Re: Yawn... » Tamar, posted by fairywings on June 3, 2006, at 16:32:25
> I'm so glad it went so well Tamar....don't those kinds of sessions always make you feel so good? It is really good you told him how you felt. Carrying that around would really eat a person up.
I *did* feel quite good at the time, but now I'm back to feeling depressed and hopeless. Things haven't been quite right in therapy for a few weeks, and his forgetting about my 'anniversary' just seemed to confirm everything that feels wrong to me in our relationship: his distance, the language barrier, the difficulty of trusting him (and my feeling that he doesn't trust me). I'm so tired of this. I want to quit. I will give it another couple of chances but if we don't work it out I guess I'll just have to accept that we've gone as far as we can go.
> I'm sure I've heard the language, but I'm not sure I completely understand....what language is it? I know sometimes I feel like my T is telling me a story to tell me something w/o actually coming right out and saying it. I want to say....yeah, I get it, so why don't you just come right out and tell me what you have to say instead of telling me this story, but I love his stories, so I'd never say that.
Yeah! It's such roundabout language. Every time my therapist starts talking like that I want to interrupt and ask, "Do you love me?" I'd like to know how he gets out of yes/no answer! I reckon either he'd say, "I don't think it's helpful for me to tell you that," or "Do you think I love you?” But what I want to hear him say is, “Do you want me to love you?” Or, “What would it mean to you if I loved you?” Or even, “Do you love me?”
> I had to laugh when daisy said she wants to know what kind of (can't remember the word she used) he might employ. I catch mine now...esp. when he tries to "normalize" things. It's funny - I call him on it now - like don't you try to get me to admit to something, or tell you something by being round about....just come out and ask me! ; )
Yes: I’m a big fan of directness in therapy. I get exhausted trying to guess what he means, and I find myself resorting to similarly contorted ways of expressing myself. It’s so frustrating.
> Competitive....hmmmm....that's interesting. Wonder what he meant. Hope you find out.
My theory at the moment is that he has noticed my refusal to accept authority in healthcare environments and he feels it as competition.
My husband says I have a problem with authority. I don’t know if that’s true. I have a problem with people in authority exercising their power capriciously. But I’ve usually had very good relationships with bosses and others in authority. I only object when I think people in authority are completely wrong about something, but then I admit that I sometimes object loudly and rudely.
And I simply can’t tolerate the authority exercised in healthcare contexts. I think it comes of having argued my way through diabetic pregnancies. In my experience the healthcare practitioners have always had my best interests at heart, but the problem arises when my idea of my bests interests conflicts with theirs. And while I recognise that they have experience and knowledge and training that I lack, nevertheless I often have good reasons for seeing things a different way. It usually comes down to ethics: I think healthcare practitioners should be willing to give me more responsibility for my treatment and allow me to learn from my mistakes if necessary (and in fact I was actually right about everything I suggested during my pregnancies). But I think their idea of ethical care involves attempting to take almost total responsibility for the treatment, which results in infantilising the patients and refusing to offer sufficient scope for genuine informed consent. I’m ranting now…
Anyway, I challenge my therapist a lot when he tells me he thinks things won’t be helpful. I guess I just don’t like him making decisions about my treatment without discussing them with me. I don’t doubt his expertise, but I want to be fully involved in my treatment. And that is inevitably a challenge to his authority. I happen to think it’s a reasonable challenge, but I expect he finds me hard work!
Posted by Dinah on June 4, 2006, at 9:13:31
In reply to Competitive? Me? » fairywings, posted by Tamar on June 4, 2006, at 6:19:44
Hmmm... I don't consider myself particularly competitive. Well, not since school anyway.
But I have the same reaction. I'm not sure it's competitiveness. I think it's just that some authority figures have trouble conceding that they may possibly be wrong, and I react to that. I like to think I'm polite but firm, but perhaps I'm not.
One thing I like about my therapist is that he's always willing to concede he may be wrong about just about everything. He may not be willing to do things my way. But he'll concede that while he believes he's correct, it's always possible he's wrong.
It's like taking away the wall I'm pushing against. I stumble forward and generally will entertain the possibility that he's correct. Then we can have a real discussion of the merits of each of our positions.
Maybe you should point out that you aren't trying to compete with him in his area of expertise, you're just trying to get him to recognize that while he has expertise in psychology, you have expertise in yourself, and all you want is to have a relationship where both of your expertise is recognized so that you can work cooperatively to best address the issues.
Of course, biofeedback guy never got that. And pdoc1 never got that. I hope your therapist can get that. (If I'm stating it correctly, of course. If not, I hope he can get whatever is the correct explanation.)
Posted by fairywings on June 4, 2006, at 21:51:15
In reply to Competitive? Me? » fairywings, posted by Tamar on June 4, 2006, at 6:19:44
If you quit working with him, would you start with someone else? Do you think you'll bring up how you're feeling about working with him?
LOL, I'll never forget when you said... at some point they should just come right out and ask us, "Do you love me yet?"! It's a burning question! I know I have transference because I want to "try on" every role with my T - I want to know what it would be like to have him for a father, husband, friend, pet....makes me feel really sad to think about it. Is it odd to wonder about all of those things? I'm afraid to tell him!
You hit the nail on the head when you said it's exhausting trying to figure out what they mean...I often wonder if I get something other than what's intended.
I wish I were more direct with bosses. I'm good about it with healthcare providers, because I figure I can always find someone else...I let my pdoc take control because he's always been reasonable, but I've left other providers because they were idiots! ; ) Good thing we live in a city where we have some choice of providers.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to expect to be a partner in your treatment. Is it possible his ego might be too big to handle it. (?) I'm so glad I switched - my last T could never admit he was wrong! He was! ; )
Good luck with your T. I hope you can either work it out, or find someone you like better.
fw
Posted by orchid on June 5, 2006, at 16:32:58
In reply to Competitive? Me? » fairywings, posted by Tamar on June 4, 2006, at 6:19:44
>> I'll just have to accept that we've gone as far as we can go.
My gut feeling tells me that this might be the case. You probably want a different kind of T
(no offense meant though) deep in your heart and hence the struggle. I could be wrong though.
Posted by Tamar on June 5, 2006, at 16:46:02
In reply to Re: Competitive? Me? » Tamar, posted by Dinah on June 4, 2006, at 9:13:31
> Hmmm... I don't consider myself particularly competitive. Well, not since school anyway.
I wasn't even very competitive at school!
> But I have the same reaction. I'm not sure it's competitiveness. I think it's just that some authority figures have trouble conceding that they may possibly be wrong, and I react to that. I like to think I'm polite but firm, but perhaps I'm not.
I'd LOVE to be polite but firm. Instead I often end up getting angry and rude. Need to learn to control those emotional outbursts...
> One thing I like about my therapist is that he's always willing to concede he may be wrong about just about everything. He may not be willing to do things my way. But he'll concede that while he believes he's correct, it's always possible he's wrong.
Well, it seems my therapist is willing to admit to being wrong when he really is wrong. And I've thought about it, and I don't even feel distressed that he won't do things my way. What I find hard is that he won't consider it, and he won't ask me why I think it would be useful to do things differently.
> It's like taking away the wall I'm pushing against. I stumble forward and generally will entertain the possibility that he's correct. Then we can have a real discussion of the merits of each of our positions.
I'd like that. That would be nice.
> Maybe you should point out that you aren't trying to compete with him in his area of expertise, you're just trying to get him to recognize that while he has expertise in psychology, you have expertise in yourself, and all you want is to have a relationship where both of your expertise is recognized so that you can work cooperatively to best address the issues.
Exactly! That's what I want. Hmmm... I'll see what he says.
> Of course, biofeedback guy never got that. And pdoc1 never got that. I hope your therapist can get that. (If I'm stating it correctly, of course. If not, I hope he can get whatever is the correct explanation.)
I think it takes someone unusually open-minded to get it. I hope I can figure this out with my therapist.
Thanks Dinah!
Posted by Tamar on June 5, 2006, at 16:58:37
In reply to Re: Competitive? Me? » Tamar, posted by fairywings on June 4, 2006, at 21:51:15
> If you quit working with him, would you start with someone else? Do you think you'll bring up how you're feeling about working with him?
I couldn't start with someone else. It's him or no one. I want it to be him. And you're right, I really need to talk more about how frustrated I am at the moment.
> LOL, I'll never forget when you said... at some point they should just come right out and ask us, "Do you love me yet?"! It's a burning question! I know I have transference because I want to "try on" every role with my T - I want to know what it would be like to have him for a father, husband, friend, pet....makes me feel really sad to think about it. Is it odd to wonder about all of those things? I'm afraid to tell him!
I don't think it's odd to wonder about that kind of thing. I'd never thought of being my therapist's pet, but I really like the idea! I think I'd like to be his kitten, and he would feed me and give me milk to drink and I'd curl up on his knee in the evenings and he'd stroke me. Oh yes!
> You hit the nail on the head when you said it's exhausting trying to figure out what they mean...I often wonder if I get something other than what's intended.
I'm certain that a great deal of the time we don't really understand each other!
> I wish I were more direct with bosses. I'm good about it with healthcare providers, because I figure I can always find someone else...I let my pdoc take control because he's always been reasonable, but I've left other providers because they were idiots! ; ) Good thing we live in a city where we have some choice of providers.
Yeah, choice is a good thing. And I suppose we can't usually choose our bosses!
> It doesn't seem unreasonable to expect to be a partner in your treatment. Is it possible his ego might be too big to handle it. (?) I'm so glad I switched - my last T could never admit he was wrong! He was! ; )
Yeah, a massive ego would get in the way. I don't know whether my therapist has a big ego. I don't think so. He's quite informal.
> Good luck with your T. I hope you can either work it out, or find someone you like better.
> fwThanks fw!
Posted by Tamar on June 5, 2006, at 17:17:38
In reply to Re: Competitive? Me? » Tamar, posted by orchid on June 5, 2006, at 16:32:58
Hi Orchid,
> >> I'll just have to accept that we've gone as far as we can go.
>
>
> My gut feeling tells me that this might be the case. You probably want a different kind of T
> (no offense meant though) deep in your heart and hence the struggle. I could be wrong though.You may be right. I just don't know. I guess none of them are perfect. If I found someone with a different theoretical orientation he might not have the same level of experience or skill that my therapist has. I guess it will always be a struggle...
Posted by orchid on June 5, 2006, at 19:12:14
In reply to Re: Competitive? Me? » orchid, posted by Tamar on June 5, 2006, at 17:17:38
I think for people as insightful as you, it might be very well a struggle with almost all therapists - because perhaps you will always know a better question to ask, or a better insight to give, than your T. So you might always end up finding most of them little short of your expectations - I don't mean you are arrogant or anything, just that you are exceptionally qualified, and it is probably very easy for you to spot mistakes in your Ts.
One thing that I think that would help is, use your Ts only as a minimal guide, and do most of your therapy here in babble - where atleast there are 50 different brains, and together, we might be able to offer more than what one T could offer. Another possibility is, to switch Ts so you get different perspectives covered by different Ts. Like, do an year with a T at the most, and then switch. I found that my two Ts worked on different parts of me, and ultimately ended up covering a whole range in the end, which neither of them would have been able to do alone by themselves no matter how hard I tried. Get the cow's work done by a cow and the horse's work done by a horse :-) LOL.
Posted by fairywings on June 5, 2006, at 20:26:10
In reply to Re: Competitive? Me? » fairywings, posted by Tamar on June 5, 2006, at 16:58:37
> I don't think it's odd to wonder about that kind of thing. I'd never thought of being my therapist's pet, but I really like the idea! I think I'd like to be his kitten, and he would feed me and give me milk to drink and I'd curl up on his knee in the evenings and he'd stroke me. Oh yes!
And maybe purr for him, and do the little thing kitties do ...."kneading"?! LOL
My T has a wonderful dog - he brings him to work. I almost love seeing the dog as much as my T. ; ) My T seems to love him more than air! Certainly like a child - a very lucky child. He's got to be the luckiest dog who ever lived, and he gives my T so much love and pleasure in return. Yes.....I'd sure love to be his four footed companion, and he'd lavish all that attention on me! ; ) Who wouldn't love that?!
fw
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