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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 23 to 47 of 47. Go back in thread:
Posted by gardenergirl on November 29, 2005, at 21:56:57
In reply to Re: T3 » Dinah, posted by Poet on November 29, 2005, at 21:08:43
Dinah,
I'm so sorry you came out of that session feeling shamed. That must be just awful. And certainly not at all helpful. I hope your plan to increase frequency with T1 works out, and that it's not too much of a burden.That said, and perhaps from my own perspective as someone in training, I think you should tell her how her style comes off to you and what you felt when you left today. I know it's not your job to set her straight, but I think she could really learn from your feedback. You've been in therapy for a long time, and you know what does and does not work for you. That is something to be respected. Heck, if I had a client like you, you can bet I'd be asking about what worked and didn't. Why re-invent the wheel?
Did she ever consult with T1? I don't remember if you signed a release for that.
Dinah, darling. I never saw you in braids, but I bet they were very cute. And like Poet, I was not at all shocked or otherwise turned off by your appearance. I think you're lovely, and I was serious when I said I thought I saw a tiny resemblance between us. You have sparkling eyes and a great smile. Not to mention your heart. :)
Wishing you a good solution...
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 22:18:19
In reply to Re: D*mn » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 17:15:45
> Well, I took it quite well when she said that I was selfish and immature sexually. There were several other things that I took quite well.
>
> I was a bit disconcerted when she insisted that my forgetting sleeps were child-like pouting, sulking, temper tantrums. I'm pretty sure they're escape, not temper tantrums.
>
> But I don't see any reason at all for perjorative descriptions of my braids.
>
> I'm not interpreting much, Falls. She comes right out and says what I'm objecting to. I'm not adding anything on top of it.
>
> Perhaps she sees herself as direct. Maybe her approach is to shock a client into change. It's not a particularly unusual technique, and I admired her grasp of it.
>
> But it's not a technique I particularly care for. And the amazing thing is not that I wish to walk away now, but that I didn't walk away sooner.
well now, i didn't know about any of that...yeah. i'd be running too...
i don't see those as irrevenant
i see those as disrespect:-(
grr
Posted by orchid on November 29, 2005, at 22:36:24
In reply to T3, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 12:27:49
Initially when I met my T2, I didn't like her.
Not for quite some time.But guess what, after some time, she started to rock.
Maybe you need to give your T3 time.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 22:47:21
In reply to Re: T3 » Dinah, posted by orchid on November 29, 2005, at 22:36:24
maybe tell her?
tell her some of the things she has said that hurt you.
because...
i really don't imagine that she intended to hurt you.
Posted by sleepygirl on November 29, 2005, at 23:34:13
In reply to T3, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 12:27:49
Say "HIT THE ROAD NASTY T!!"
Sorry, I'm overidentifying perhaps with my experience with less than gentle mental health professionals....
I'm all for exploring what your reactions might be with people who are not so pleasant for you, but I hope it won't be an ongoing theme. I hope you bring it up with her, see how it goes. I don't know the quality of interaction you're talking about here, but respect and acceptance has got to be a prerequisite. I hope, whatever you decide, that it goes well.
Posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 1:23:32
In reply to Re: T3 » Poet, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 20:01:21
I think it is interesting that this happened today after you opened the discussion with your therapist about body imagine. I think it would be helpful to talk to T3 about it - and I agree that she needs feedback about her style.
I wish things were going smoother for you.
Posted by Dinah on November 30, 2005, at 9:49:10
In reply to Re: T3 » Poet, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 20:01:21
I didn't mean to say anything too negative about her. She's actually got really good technique, and comes across as interested and therapeutically caring. Not terribly judgemental.
She does say things but none of them are said terribly offensively. Otherwise I'd have never lasted this long with her.
I think it's not an unusual style, and it worked well for Falls, and probably many other people. But I'm just not the sort of person who deals well with that style. I'd never make it with Falls therapist either, and that's ok. Different people respond differently. I'm not challenged by challenging statements.
I don't fight them. I just decide I don't want that in my life, and walk. If anyone's judgemental, it's likely me, because I just think people shouldn't talk that way to each other - not even therapists. Especially if there's no caring and investment already built up.
I'm sure she's a fine therapist and provokes change in many of her clients. She may be more effective than therapists who don't say provocative things. There's just a lack of good fit between her style and my response.
I'm a good therapy client. If she just raised the issues, without adding the provocative statements, or if she said the same thing but in a positive way. For example, instead of saying "you are immature and selfish in your sexuality" she could say "I'm sure you want to be as giving and generous as you can be toward your husband" it would have suited my style better.
But then again, she probably sees me as someone who's had ten years of therapy and has a more than thorough understanding of my issues, yet still has not made changes she would like to see. And she probably thinks that discussing things won't propel me to change, and that I need a bit more impetus. She hasn't, of course, seen the changes I have made, just the ones I haven't.
Maybe she's right. But I know that this way won't work with me. Apart from all else, I'm wickedly stubborn, and not inclined to reward behavior that I find less than desirable. ;) Also, these are changes that of course I have considered. I haven't reached my age, after ten years of therapy, without considering these changes. Simply stinging me into action won't make me choose these particular options.
So, I think she's a very good and very skilled therapist with a style that just does not mesh well with my own. Yet time and time again, I've heard of similar therapist who get excellent results. I am absolutely horrified at what they say, yet their clients would say positive things about them.
Maybe it's the difference between fight and flight. I may be argumentative, but there's a difference between that and a real fight response. I am only argumentative in certain circumstances. I choose my battles and I choose who I wish to engage. Otherwise I might draw a line in the sand, but then I walk away. Or run away, depending on circumstances.
And I think I refuse to see that as inherently worse than a tendency to stay and fight. Is a deer bad and a lion good? We all have natural inborn tendencies that are neither good nor bad, though some of them are certainly more prized by society. Fight may be more valued in our society, but that doesn't make it inherently more valuable.
Posted by cricket on November 30, 2005, at 11:40:36
In reply to T3, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 12:27:49
I'm so sorry Dinah. I haven't talked to you in a while or really been on the psychology board. I wish things were finally going better.
Therapy fit - Hmmm - that's an interesting Babble topic.
If I had any insight at all, I'd start a thread.
I hope it all works out. It does sound best if you can get to see T1 more frequently.
Posted by sleepygirl on November 30, 2005, at 11:59:44
In reply to Poster's remorse again, posted by Dinah on November 30, 2005, at 9:49:10
> And I think I refuse to see that as inherently worse than a tendency to stay and fight. Is a deer bad and a lion good? We all have natural inborn tendencies that are neither good nor bad, though some of them are certainly more prized by society. Fight may be more valued in our society, but that doesn't make it inherently more valuable.I think this was quite a thoughtful post. I feel like you have a real appreciation for the quality of technique even if you don't feel like it's for you. I was sort of kidding in my last post to you about telling her to hit the road. I was being simplistic, but you really hit me with what you said above about the "fight" feeling more valued.
I guess I was just reacting to the "C'mon, don't you get it!!, c'mon, move, move, move!!" quality I kind of feel in mental health a lot. I certainly have nothing against progess, but it feels sorta like that sometimes. I wish I could describe it more eloquently. I just know that I couldn't have gotten to where I am without some serious tender loving care - and it has been some tremendous progress that maybe doesn't translate to a graph or pie chart if you know what I mean.
I don't mean to devalue what T3 does. I'm sure it's quite effective for some. I got my own stuff surrounding this issue in a major way. It's hard to know which way to go. You'll tell us what happens right?
Posted by fallsfall on November 30, 2005, at 13:44:43
In reply to Poster's remorse again, posted by Dinah on November 30, 2005, at 9:49:10
Yes.
And that style DOES only work if there is genuine palpable caring behind it. Because otherwise none of us could tolerate it.
I wonder if there is a happy medium. I do so want your life to get better, as mine has.
Posted by Tamar on November 30, 2005, at 18:10:17
In reply to Poster's remorse again, posted by Dinah on November 30, 2005, at 9:49:10
OK, I haven’t seen them. But I bet your braids make you look like *you*, which is of course just the way you should look. I think braids are beautiful and feminine and generally a good thing.
I suspect you are right about finding a man to work through this stuff with. I know I find it easier to talk to men about anything to do with my body. It’s definitely the dreaded middle-school-memory thing. And like Caraher said in a previous thread, women can be very critical of other women. As women, perhaps we tend to expect our appearance to be critiqued (or criticized) by other women. Are there any male sex therapists out there?
I agree with you about the sleep: I think it’s escapism. I find it hard to imagine that sleep could be a manifestation of either sulking or temper tantrums. Unless, perhaps, you were angry with *yourself*. Anyway, I suppose T3’s job is to make suggestions; she can’t impose her view of reality on you. If it doesn’t ring true to you, then it’s irrelevant. Oh, and I’m with you on the gaining-weight-to-become-invisible thing. Definitely. And also about the walking away thing. I also find it preferable to walk away. I hate conflict with people I don’t know well.
What she said about your sexuality: it rang a bell with me because I’ve sometimes wondered if my own sexuality is rather immature. The way mine works for me is fairly similar to some of the things you’ve said here before… except perhaps that I have an easier time with my husband than you do. I sometimes think: this way of experiencing sexuality is perfect for a pre-teen, and I missed that at the time because I had no idea about my sexuality when I was that age. But to call it selfish isn’t fair. It might be self-focused (in the nicest possible way) because that’s what it *has* to be. Anything else feels wrong and dangerous.
I remember you said once that your therapist (T1) thought you might have been sexually abused as a child. And it seems to me that no one would tell an adult survivor of child abuse that her sexuality was immature and selfish (I hope!). I also know that you said you weren’t sexually abused. But even if you weren’t sexually abused as a child, the aversion is just as real and shouldn’t be minimised. I wonder if you might benefit from the sorts of techniques that people use in dealing with sex after CSA. If the ‘symptoms’ are similar then perhaps the approach to dealing with it might be similar. But what do I know?
I think the most important thing is that your sexuality is *yours*. The important thing is that you feel good and comfortable and able to accept yourself. If you are able to find some pleasure in your body, that’s a good thing… and it shouldn’t be underestimated because there are plenty of women who haven’t yet discovered it. I know a woman who was 50 before she had an orgasm. So perhaps concentrating on the good things about your sexuality would be a start?
Having said all that… maybe if T3 understood more about you she would be able to adjust her style a bit. You probably don’t fit any of the models she’s working to. I’m not saying you should fight for this relationship, because I know you need your energy for your relationship with T1. But maybe if you can tell her how you’re feeling and give her a chance to take stock and adjust to your individual perspective she might be able to help. I know your instincts are good… and there aren’t many people who can appreciate your depth of character in such a short time and in the special circumstances that therapy involves (strange as it seems). Maybe if you tell her you don't respond well to criticism, she'll be able to make adjustments. But still… if she said rude things about your braids she should apologise. She’s the one who should be ashamed about that; not you!
Just my two cents.
Tamar
Posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 20:23:50
In reply to Poster's remorse again, posted by Dinah on November 30, 2005, at 9:49:10
I'm really glad you wrote what you did, Dinah. I have at times felt defensive because people have implied that my therapist is too soft, or too available to me and yet I always think, "but that is what works for me." I would have run from therapy a long time ago if he wasn't who he is. And I think that is also why I didn't click with a woman, even with my issues. I wait for them to be hyper-critical and/or have huge expectations of strength and progress (my mother).
I like the idea of "fit" - not that I think there is only one therapist who can ever fill that role. But as far as style and technique, I do think we all respond differently. I guess that is why so many different kinds of people are attracted to the field. Thank Goodness.
Posted by Tabitha on December 1, 2005, at 0:32:01
In reply to Poster's remorse again, posted by Dinah on November 30, 2005, at 9:49:10
Dinah, it's a very well-reasoned argument, but I think you're basing it all on the assumption that she has a fixed style that she uses with all clients. That may be true, but it could also be possible that her style is flexible, and she's not reading you well enough yet to know that she needs to use a different style with you. Do you think it's worthwhile to check it out with her?
And something else that just jumped out at me-- I have to wonder why you're saying you choose flight, after all the inspirational stories you've posted about 'fighting to relationship' with T1. What's so different with this one?
It must be very confusing to have 3 therapists at once.
Posted by caraher on December 1, 2005, at 9:05:32
In reply to I like your braids! (***possible trigger***) » Dinah, posted by Tamar on November 30, 2005, at 18:10:17
> OK, I haven’t seen them. But I bet your braids make you look like *you*, which is of course just the way you should look. I think braids are beautiful and feminine and generally a good thing.
>
> I suspect you are right about finding a man to work through this stuff with. I know I find it easier to talk to men about anything to do with my body. It’s definitely the dreaded middle-school-memory thing. And like Caraher said in a previous thread, women can be very critical of other women. As women, perhaps we tend to expect our appearance to be critiqued (or criticized) by other women.Speaking of braids... last year the girls in the high school band wore their hair in French braids and I thought it looked good. But my wife brought up the braids to complain that they made the girls look unsophisticated when she thought they were trying to project a different image. (And she frequently braids her own hair.)
Still, your T has no business making negative remarks about your appearance except perhaps to point out how changes in your appearance reflect (or perhaps influence) your state of mind. And by this I mostly mean *neglect* of your appearance. Braids are never a sign of neglect because they require at least some minimal effort compared to just letting hair fly free.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 21:36:56
In reply to Re: T3 » Dinah, posted by cricket on November 30, 2005, at 11:40:36
I still think it might be best to develop a distance from T1. I can't see any way this will end up well.
But I intend to do it as gently as possible. And to get all I can get from him before it crashes.
He's helping in my goal, quite unintentionally.
Life is strange. And I'm even stranger.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 21:38:14
In reply to Re: Poster's remorse again » Dinah, posted by sleepygirl on November 30, 2005, at 11:59:44
I've got my own issues around that style. :)
I'm sure it would be healthier and more mature to accept the positive things she has to offer, and to learn to adjust myself to her style. I'm sure I'd grow a great deal.
But I'm not going to.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 21:40:30
In reply to Re: Poster's remorse again » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on November 30, 2005, at 13:44:43
Well, my life isn't going to get better anytime soon, that's for sure. I'll be lucky to hold my own. Very very lucky. More lucky than I think I will be.
But there are different paths to wellness, and hopefully I'll stumble onto one of my own.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 21:49:36
In reply to I like your braids! (***possible trigger***) » Dinah, posted by Tamar on November 30, 2005, at 18:10:17
I'm not altogether sure why this week stung why the other weeks were ok. I guess she must have hit my tender spot, my fear of being a bad girl.
She's actually been a bit helpful with my relationship with my husband. But maybe there's only so far that she thinks she can go without forcing me to grow up. At least it appears that way. Everything she says tends to circle around that.
Sigh.
Maybe now just isn't the time to work on sexuality. I only really did it because I figured that I could kill two birds with one stone. But there is sooo much going on right now, so many stressors. Sex is the last thing on my mind, even my preferred sexuality.
I don't know....
I had forgotten T3 completely - to the point that I had forgotten this thread as well, even though I see it each time I open the board. I sure am good at that forgetting thing.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 21:52:22
In reply to Re: Poster's remorse again » Dinah, posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 20:23:50
Thank goodness indeed!
She really is quite good at what she does. Very intuitive, and until the temper tantrum theory, pretty good at picking up on things.
I'm half afraid to tell her all this because I'm afraid she'll turn it into my being spoiled again. Not wanting to face a bit of challenge. Only wanting support. Ok, I'm more than half afraid.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 22:00:10
In reply to Re: Poster's remorse again » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on December 1, 2005, at 0:32:01
It's not what so different with *this* one. The thing to wonder about is what was so different about my regular therapist. Fighting to relationship isn't my style in general. Running is. Neither my therapist nor I can fathom what's so different about him. What about him made me decide early on that he was different. I wish I did know, because I'd like to have better confidence that I can find it again. My therapist is the one that actually brought that to my attention. After I rabbited with biofeedback guy, he asked me in a bemused tone why I had chosen him to not run from. "Why me?" he asked.
I am going to try to have a conversation with T3 to see if there's anything worth continuing this Tuesday. I'm really not looking forward to that. :(
T2 only lasted two sessions. :)
So at this point, I have my regular therapist, and this adjunct sex therapist, who I was also using as a backup to T1 for when that inevitably falls through.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 22:05:27
In reply to Re: I like your braids! (***possible trigger***), posted by caraher on December 1, 2005, at 9:05:32
Well, I had opened up the can of worms to talk about self image. And in the course of that conversation, I brought up that I wore my hair more conventionally at the office.
I think she erroneously concluded that my poor self image was based on my braids or my style of dressing. And she was prodding me to change those things.
When in reality, my poor self image doesn't have a thing to do with my braids. I just recognize that they are a bit too casual for the office.
I do think my therapist would be more careful about making comments on my appearance, but not because he approves of it any more than she does. He's a very meticulous and conventional, even trendy, dresser himself. I'm not sure if it's a natural reserve from a male speaking to a female or if it's a natural caution learned from years of dealing with me. :D
Posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2005, at 22:32:12
In reply to Re: Poster's remorse again » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 22:00:10
hmm. i thought tabitha had a really good point...
> The thing to wonder about is what was so different about my regular therapist.
uh...
was it maybe that he didn't seem to mind so much about pushing you to change?
and... he was (fairly) happy to allow you to remain dependent on him?i mean...
'verbally' he fought it tooth and nail...
but in practice...i'm wondering if its about the notion that you really did think that he would be there and accepting forever.
with these other people...
there is a bit of a fear that they don't accept you... or that they will push you too much... that you will not meet their expectations and then they will leave.
sounds to me like...
your old t is a 'safe' option.
it always seemed to me
(excuse me if i'm off)
that with him there weren't really prospects for rejection...
but that with him there weren't really prospects for improvement either...but then you accepted that.
and wanted the security that he brought you (that you felt in response) over...
the harder way... which might have meant...
that you learned to internalise some of that.
i dunno.
just talking.but i think it would be worthwhile telling her that she hurt you very much with her comments about your braids and your immaturity. that you felt like she was judging you negatively. that it is hard to take that from anyone and ESPECIALLY from a therapist.
and that you need her to ease up a bit and be a bit gentler with you.
and then... see how it goes...
where there isn't much of a risk...
then there isn't really much to be gained either...
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 22:50:49
In reply to Re: Poster's remorse again, posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2005, at 22:32:12
I don't know.
It *feels* like the risk has only ever been with him. Because the rest didn't matter, didn't matter from the start. But he *did* matter, from the very start. No matter how much I laughed at him, or got angry with him, or was hurt by him (and he did hurt me from the very beginning) he *did* matter. And they didn't, and they don't. So it's easy to walk, while it was nearly impossible from the git-go with him.
Because from the very beginning, under all the things I didn't like about him, he gave me something that no one else ever did. Not acceptance, because he didn't much like me in the beginning. And not the promise of forever therapy. I think he said nine weeks. It seems like magic, but I imagine it's his ability to project calm and peace. Not that he has it himself, he doesn't. It's just how he feels. So open and receptive, but with a solid core that can be relied upon.
I mean, I know it can't really, and his core isn't really that solid. And he's chock full of all sorts of weaknesses and flaws.
But he still *feels* the same. When he's on form, he still gives me that same feeling Risperdal does.
I've long said that I prefer my truth not only varnished, but beveled and polished. And I mean that. Challenges have to be pretty darn polite and good natured for me to accept them. But that's my choice, and it's served me well enough in my life in general. I feel no particular desire to change that about myself for a therapist who I don't much care about, and who doesn't bother to bevel truths.
Which for some reason makes me think of Tamar, who has a better touch with truth than anyone I know. :)
Posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2005, at 23:18:19
In reply to Re: Poster's remorse again » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 22:50:49
> I don't know.
Neither do I. I'm just talking...
> Because from the very beginning, under all the things I didn't like about him, he gave me something that no one else ever did... It seems like magic, but I imagine it's his ability to project calm and peace. Not that he has it himself, he doesn't. It's just how he feels. So open and receptive, but with a solid core that can be relied upon.
Ah. Yes. I do think... I get what you mean. I know you don't really idealise him (I mean, you are well aware of some of his failings etc). And I think... I get what you mean about that feeling.
> I've long said that I prefer my truth not only varnished, but beveled and polished. And I mean that. Challenges have to be pretty darn polite and good natured for me to accept them.
And the bigger the challenge, the more varnished and beveled and polished and pretty darned polite and good natured they need to be. At least... Thats the way it is for me too. I think... Thats true of everybody.
> Which for some reason makes me think of Tamar, who has a better touch with truth than anyone I know. :)
Yeah. I re-read her post and I think I get what you mean.
But I also think... That it is possible to do a bit of both...
And I think... Maybe if you explain to her how you felt in response... Maybe then... She would understand this a bit more. Maybe... Give her (strategic bits) from this thread?
Because it is possible that she can adapt her style.
I think... You should at least give her the opportunity to do that.
But of course you might still find that it doesn't work out.
I think... I get what you mean. I've had some therapists who I felt that way around (sometimes). Guys typically. But then my last female t... Could be wonderfully soothing at times.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2005, at 23:21:21
In reply to Re: Poster's remorse again, posted by alexandra_k on December 3, 2005, at 23:18:19
i know what i find hard...
i think about things a lot.
about the 'reason' for my problems etc.
and when a t disregards my take
and imposes their own
(which is typically 'nasty' or 'hurtful' or 'judgemental')
then i don't cope with that very well at all.because i reckon...
you can figure it out.
you want a little help
not someone who says (explicitly or implicitly)
yes dear, but of course your rationale is wrong and these are the 'real' reasons.thats not helping thats hurting
and they have no right to impose their 'truths'
over yours.they are supposed to facilitate you...
at least, thats my take.but i still think...
to give her a chance?
This is the end of the thread.
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