![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ace on November 30, 2005, at 23:10:19
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT, posted by linkadge on November 30, 2005, at 22:30:46
> CBT can be very helpfull for many people. I know it didn't help you, but it helped me.
That's great. But try to fully UNDERSTAND WHAT it helped you with....endogeneous or exogeneous matters???
>
> I didn't think it at the time, but now I find myself referring back to many of the techniques I used.Once again great. But I doubt its helping with your biochemical problem....we cant change the biochemistry through talking as some stupid psychs have said!!!!
>
> It's another tool in the tool chest. Its good to keep around just incase.True. Use it as a common sense therapy. But I am in disgust when it is used on a severly disturbed person afflicted with a biochemical imbalance.
>
> LinkadgeAce!
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on November 30, 2005, at 23:10:20
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT » linkadge, posted by ace on November 30, 2005, at 22:45:36
I am a proponent that true healing comes from changing your thought patterns, but Im not pro-CBT necessarily. I dont use it, at least their methods.
I know CBT does not help some ppl. But I have never ever heard that it "worsens" ppl. Please enlighten me on this.
Posted by Phillipa on November 30, 2005, at 23:10:20
In reply to Never known CBT to worsen a single person, posted by UgottaHaveHope on November 30, 2005, at 22:50:36
Ace, what's up? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by gardenergirl on December 1, 2005, at 0:06:31
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT » linkadge, posted by ace on November 30, 2005, at 22:45:36
> Those studies are done by Beck, Ellis, and Burns mostly and are fundamentally flawed in the statistical method they used. I studied statistics for years...."it is the smart way to lie".Ace, there are literally thousands of studies looking at CBT with all kinds of populations. They compare it to no treatment, different kinds of treatment, and to meds. They use a variety of statistical methods, and they have been conducted by researchers across the world.
Some studies are, of course, better than others. That's why we need to be critical readers of research. Please don't overgeneralize.
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on December 1, 2005, at 2:04:41
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT » linkadge, posted by ace on November 30, 2005, at 22:45:36
>I doubt its helping with your biochemical problem....we cant change the biochemistry through talking as some stupid psychs have said!!!!
LOL!
talking and feeling is a little more interrelated than that, you know.
if you talk / think about one thing...
that can have bodily changes
increased heart rate
angerand talking...
is part of your experience...
is able to alter neural pathways comperably to how other experiences have the power to alter neural pathways...
Posted by muffled on December 1, 2005, at 2:48:47
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT, posted by alexandra_k on December 1, 2005, at 2:04:41
Posted by ace on December 1, 2005, at 8:05:22
In reply to Never known CBT to worsen a single person, posted by UgottaHaveHope on November 30, 2005, at 22:50:36
> I am a proponent that true healing comes from changing your thought patterns, but Im not pro-CBT necessarily. I dont use it, at least their methods.
>
> I know CBT does not help some ppl. But I have never ever heard that it "worsens" ppl. Please enlighten me on this.Sure thing. It made my depression and OCD MUCH worse. Listen carefully. I believe psychiatric syndromes represent a change in brain biochemistry/transport across membranes etc etc
In other words they represent a FUNCTIONAL problem. Now look at the person who has cut his arm. Very similiar to a 'cutin the brain (lax NT)
Now, if we get the person with the cut on the arm to constantly focus on the cut, it is worsened due to him metaphorically cutting a wound....same thing with the brain.....it aggravated my symptoms...I was scratching a wound (OCD, depression etc) that WORDS cant help....it needed biochemical intervention in the form of a medication.....so the cut on the arm and the 'cut' in the brain can be both worsened by focusing on them (in the case of the brain -- CBT)
just mY opinion...!
Ace
Posted by ace on December 1, 2005, at 8:58:10
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT, posted by alexandra_k on December 1, 2005, at 2:04:41
> >I doubt its helping with your biochemical problem....we cant change the biochemistry through talking as some stupid psychs have said!!!!
>
> LOL!
>
> talking and feeling is a little more interrelated than that, you know.No its not -- at least in the context I put forth my argument.
>
> if you talk / think about one thing...
> that can have bodily changes
> increased heart rate
> angerSure. And these are biochemical reactions in the brain....BUT AFTER A SHORT WHILE THE BIOCHEMISTRY AFFECTED BY SUCH 'ANGER'ETC RETURNS TO IT'S NORMAL 'POSITION' FOR WANT OF A BETTER WORD. SAME WITH SOMATIC CHANGES. THEY RETURN AND DO NOT LEAVE A 'SCAR' AS IN A PSYCHIATRIC ILLNESS.
>
> and talking...
> is part of your experience...
> is able to alter neural pathways comperably to how other experiences have the power to alter neural pathways...
THEY TEMPORARILY ALTER NEURAL PATHWAYS, AND THEN THE NT IS RETURNED TO ITS PRIOR ACTION POTENTIAL RATE ACROSS THE SYNAPSE.PSYCHIATRIC ILLNESSESS LEAVE A SCAR WHERE NT IS PERMANENTLY ALTERED -- FOR THE WORSE AS EXPERIENCED BY THE SUBJECT.
ACE
>
>
Posted by fallsfall on December 1, 2005, at 12:28:28
In reply to Never known CBT to worsen a single person, posted by UgottaHaveHope on November 30, 2005, at 22:50:36
I spent 8 1/2 years in CBT, and on a pile of meds. Now I'm in Psychodynamic therapy and after 2 1/2 years things are starting to get better. I find that we are working to undo thought patterns and ideas that became entrenched during my 8 1/2 years of CBT (such as "I must be depressed" and "I can be the BEST depressed person around").
This doesn't say that I didn't learn useful things in CBT. I did. But it wasn't the answer for me, and continuing it as long as I did meant that I wasn't getting OTHER help that I desperately needed. So, in a way, it did make me worse (I got accustomed to being depressed), and it prevented me from getting better (since I was in CBT therapy I thought I was doing all that I could to get better).
That said, CBT is very helpful for a lot of people.
Posted by caraher on December 1, 2005, at 13:00:28
In reply to Re: Never known CBT to worsen a single person » UgottaHaveHope, posted by fallsfall on December 1, 2005, at 12:28:28
The mind-body connection and the full story of depression and its treatment and how it does or doesn't work is, in my own opinion, simply too complex for either a strict biochemical model or a more "psychological" approach to capture, in isolation, everything that's really happening.
I found this research, using PET scans to compare the effects of CBT and meds in patients responding to the respective treatments, truly fascinating:
http://www.psychiatrysource.com/psychsource/News/Neuropsychiatry_Sciences/article13.htmBasically, they found hints that the mechanisms of recovery are quite different, perhaps complementary.
Some similar links are below.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p010744.html
http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Depression/news/antidepressants_vs_therapy.asp
http://www.motkur.no/newhope.htm
Posted by alexandra_k on December 1, 2005, at 16:27:49
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT » alexandra_k, posted by ace on December 1, 2005, at 8:58:10
are you yelling at me?
was it something i said?
;-)> Sure. And these are biochemical reactions in the brain....BUT AFTER A SHORT WHILE THE BIOCHEMISTRY AFFECTED BY SUCH 'ANGER'ETC RETURNS TO IT'S NORMAL 'POSITION' FOR WANT OF A BETTER WORD. SAME WITH SOMATIC CHANGES. THEY RETURN AND DO NOT LEAVE A 'SCAR' AS IN A PSYCHIATRIC ILLNESS.
so you think biochemistry is the *only* factor involved in mental illness?
*all* mental illness or just yours?
you don't think the structure of neural connections might have something to do with it as well?
you don't think your experience in the world changes your neural connections?
you don't think talking / thinking things through counts as an experience in the world and thus has the power to change your neural connections?> THEY TEMPORARILY ALTER NEURAL PATHWAYS, AND THEN THE NT IS RETURNED TO ITS PRIOR ACTION POTENTIAL RATE ACROSS THE SYNAPSE.
here you are talking about the firing of neurons.
i was talking about the connections between neurons.
they are altered by experience...
> PSYCHIATRIC ILLNESSESS LEAVE A SCAR WHERE NT IS PERMANENTLY ALTERED -- FOR THE WORSE AS EXPERIENCED BY THE SUBJECT.so you are determined that you have a chronic illness that can only be masked by medication?
well... if you keep telling yourself that...
it just might become true for you...good luck to ya
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on December 1, 2005, at 21:44:16
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT, posted by linkadge on December 1, 2005, at 10:57:42
ive known it to not work, but never to "worsen" someone. please enlighten me.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 1, 2005, at 23:05:51
In reply to Never known CBT to worsen a single person, posted by UgottaHaveHope on December 1, 2005, at 16:22:54
> ive known it to not work, but never to "worsen" someone. please enlighten me.
oh.
well... it has made me worse...
Posted by Ilene on December 2, 2005, at 0:22:24
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT » linkadge, posted by ace on November 30, 2005, at 22:45:36
I'm currently taking a weekly course in CBT, while having some ups and downs in my depression. I've felt better for the last week, but before that I was suicidal. (I think the Cymbalta has kicked in.) Now I don't have the repeated depressing thoughts that I used to have, and the negative thoughts I *do* have don't elicit the same intense response.
When I was suicidal, none of the CBT techniques I was learning had any effect. In fact, when we did a thought record of one of my disturbing thoughts (what seems to be permanent memory loss/cognitive damage from ECT) the conclusion was that I should "accept it". Aaargh! Although I'm a lot more at ease about it now that I'm not as depressed.
So I dunno. My pdoc contends that medication response is "very subtle" but I feel as if a huge weight has been lifted off my head. She also thinks highly of CBT. I'm just not getting it.
I.
PS: There's plenty of mental illness in my family, so it's clearly genetic/biological.
Posted by ace on December 2, 2005, at 8:21:22
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT » ace, posted by alexandra_k on December 1, 2005, at 16:27:49
> are you yelling at me?
> was it something i said?
> ;-)No!! ha ha!
> > Sure. And these are biochemical reactions in the brain....BUT AFTER A SHORT WHILE THE BIOCHEMISTRY AFFECTED BY SUCH 'ANGER'ETC RETURNS TO IT'S NORMAL 'POSITION' FOR WANT OF A BETTER WORD. SAME WITH SOMATIC CHANGES. THEY RETURN AND DO NOT LEAVE A 'SCAR' AS IN A PSYCHIATRIC ILLNESS.
>
> so you think biochemistry is the *only* factor involved in mental illness?Yes. When we talk about psychosis, OCD, clinical depression, I believe so. Although the environment can very very slighty BRIEFLY affect these. But only briefly and slightly and rarely.
> *all* mental illness or just yours?Yes mine. All mental illness as presented in the CORE (not all) of the DSM. Mental illness, by definition, describes illness of the brain.
> you don't think the structure of neural connections might have something to do with it as well?What do you mean here? Neural connections cante created/lost through NLP or that clown Anthony Robbins. It is a pure lie. And a good money making scheme! Think of it this way....if we could change our brain biochemistry by will, we could completely interfere with hormones,negative feedback, and even "talk ourselves" into changing the colour of our hair, ha ha!
> you don't think your experience in the world changes your neural connections?
Sure they do. But not CONSCIOUSLY or BY AN ACT of WILL.
> you don't think talking / thinking things through counts as an experience in the worldNo.
and thus has the power to change your neural connections?No. Not in a conscious manner.
>
> > THEY TEMPORARILY ALTER NEURAL PATHWAYS, AND THEN THE NT IS RETURNED TO ITS PRIOR ACTION POTENTIAL RATE ACROSS THE SYNAPSE.
>
> here you are talking about the firing of neurons.Right.
> i was talking about the connections between neurons.
Yeah but the connections are their for the action potential to be set off. No action potentials, and your brain is dead. Neural connections are made by actional potentials, Thoughts are, experience is, EVERYTHING IS!
> they are altered by experience...
>
> > PSYCHIATRIC ILLNESSESS LEAVE A SCAR WHERE NT IS PERMANENTLY ALTERED -- FOR THE WORSE AS EXPERIENCED BY THE SUBJECT.
>
> so you are determined that you have a chronic illness that can only be masked by medication?Yes. Not just masked, but placed in full remmission. We cannot 'cure' mental illness until we can use smears, blood tests, X-rays, etc
Thus, finding the ACTUAL gensis of the problem, which I'm preety sure I know already.> well... if you keep telling yourself that...
> it just might become true for you...Listen, I have finished medicine and studied the brain extensively. I am soon to be a psychiatric
student. I' not boasting. I just think this CBT and other nonsense is a farce. And defies scientific truths.>
> good luck to yaare you being sarcastic?
Posted by muffled on December 2, 2005, at 10:05:11
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT » alexandra_k, posted by ace on December 2, 2005, at 8:21:22
Posted by Dinah on December 2, 2005, at 11:56:54
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT » alexandra_k, posted by ace on December 2, 2005, at 8:21:22
I have OCD, and it appears to respond rather well to CBT techniques. There are also more psychoanalytical aspects to it.
If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't. And that's fine. But I hope as a psychiatrist you are open to things that work for people other than you as well.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 2, 2005, at 15:40:46
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT » alexandra_k, posted by ace on December 2, 2005, at 8:21:22
> No!! ha ha!
:-)
> > so you think biochemistry is the *only* factor involved in mental illness?> Yes. When we talk about psychosis, OCD, clinical depression, I believe so.
Hmm.
> Although the environment can very very slighty BRIEFLY affect these. But only briefly and slightly and rarely.
only briefly and slightly and rarely...
> All mental illness as presented in the CORE (not all) of the DSM.And the 'core' would be?
> Mental illness, by definition, describes illness of the brain.
Right. But... What do you mean by illness?
There are a variety of things that could go 'wrong' with ones brain...
transmitter...
structure...
neural connections...> > you don't think the structure of neural connections might have something to do with it as well?
> What do you mean here?you don't think cerebral trauma (where there is lesion) can lead to 'mental illness' type symptoms? this is a case of the STRUCTURE being out...
you don't think differences such as... enlarged ventricals and smaller regions in the brain can lead to 'mental illness' type symptoms? this would be another case of the STRUCTURE being out...>Neural connections cant created/lost through NLP or that clown Anthony Robbins.
Okay. I'll say first up... Not to get me started on NLP or 'that clown' Anthony Robbins ;-) Because... I think I might be round about as hostile to them as you are...
But you don't mean to lump together those and CBT as well, do you?
> Think of it this way....if we could change our brain biochemistry by will, we could completely interfere with hormones,negative feedback, and even "talk ourselves" into changing the colour of our hair, ha ha!
Who said anything about 'conscious will'
I was just talking about the environment having the power to alter ones neural connections...> > you don't think your experience in the world changes your neural connections?
> Sure they do. But not CONSCIOUSLY or BY AN ACT of WILL.
Right. I never even mentioned those latter things.
> > you don't think talking / thinking things through counts as an experience in the world
> No.Hmm. Dare I ask what you think talking / thinking is if not an activity that occurs in the world and thus... becomes part of your environment and thus... has the power to alter your neural connections?
> and thus has the power to change your neural connections?
> No. Not in a conscious manner.Why do you keep bringing consciousness into it?
One theory of consciousness (in psychology) is that the function of consciousness is to facilitate learning. Gee I wonder whether 'learning' means that the neural connections are altering in ones brain ;-)
> Yeah but the connections are their for the action potential to be set off.The connections determine which other neurons will be affected by the action potential. No point having... An action potential occuring in a neuron... That doesn't enjoy connections with other neurons...
> No action potentials, and your brain is dead.
Hmm. No neural connections and you wouldn't have a brain ;-)
> Neural connections are made by actional potentials,
?
Neural connections provide 'informational' connections so that when the neuron has an action potential... That affects other neurons. Which then go on to have an action potential...Neurotransmitters have to do with the transmission of the 'information' or the action potential across the synaptic cleft. Neurotransmitters thus modulate neuronal connections.
They can only alter the neuronal connections you already have.
Taking psychotropic medications don't alter your connections, they just moderate the weighting of the connections (to the best of my knowledge).
Wheras experience... Learning... Has the power to guide the neurons growth so that it connects to MORE neurons. Connections are being culled and grown all the time... (I think...)I think?
Or is it just that their weightings change?
> I just think this CBT and other nonsense is a farce.
I have yet to understand why...
>And defies scientific truths.
Then how do you discount the scientific studies that show CBT to be effective for a variety of conditions?
> > good luck to ya
> are you being sarcastic?No.
I'm just thinking...
That to put all ones eggs in one basket (ie medication)... Well...
I'd prefer to keep my options open is all...Sometimes there is more than one way to Rome...
More than one way to mental health...
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2005, at 16:38:58
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT » alexandra_k, posted by ace on December 2, 2005, at 8:21:22
> I just think this CBT and other nonsense is a farce.
Please respect the views of others and be sensitive to their feelings.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by ace on December 4, 2005, at 6:59:26
In reply to Re: please be supportive » ace, posted by Dr. Bob on December 3, 2005, at 16:38:58
> > I just think this CBT and other nonsense is a farce.
>
> Please respect the views of others and be sensitive to their feelings.
>
> If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
>
> Thanks,
>
> BobOK, I personally don't believe in CBT efficacy (in the face of bonafide psychopathology), but if it works for you, great!
I'm sorry if I annoyed anyone.
Nardil rules,
Ace.
Posted by ace on December 4, 2005, at 7:01:42
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT » ace, posted by Dinah on December 2, 2005, at 11:56:54
But I hope as a psychiatrist you are open to things that work for people other than you as well.
No. I wont be open to anything other than medications. I am strictly becoming a psychopharmacologist (which I'm sure you know is a psychiatrist who has confidence in the medical model and uses medicines only.)
But if it works for you, that's really great!
ALL the best,
Ace.
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2005, at 10:40:32
In reply to Re: Regarding CBT » Dinah, posted by ace on December 4, 2005, at 7:01:42
Actually, my pdoc is a psychopharmacologist and is more than open to non-medication treatment.
So is my neurologist.
I'm a lucky patient.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2005, at 16:24:12
In reply to Re: please be supportive » Dr. Bob, posted by ace on December 4, 2005, at 6:59:26
This is the end of the thread.
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