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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sleepygirl on November 30, 2005, at 23:49:26
In reply to I reiterate - to all!!, posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 23:10:37
Posted by muffled on December 1, 2005, at 0:00:11
In reply to I reiterate - to all!!, posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 23:10:37
Posted by daisym on December 1, 2005, at 0:07:32
In reply to I reiterate - to all!!, posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 23:10:37
No problem with me -- really. I AM struggling with this, what I know and what I feel are so different. Just because something is frightening doesn't mean it is wrong, or right or both. I think you just struck a raw nerve for some of us. It sounds like you've really benefited from your therapy and have a solid sense of self. I'm jealous.
I appreciate that you were trying to normalize these feelings. It seems like it is very hard to do that with out minimizing them, and yet my fear is that there will be repercussions for having them. It is so very complicated.
And btw, I'm glad you said your SO cares. I think that is really important. I sort of assumed so if her patients fall in love with her. :)
Posted by 10derHeart on December 1, 2005, at 1:04:12
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » one woman cine, posted by Tamar on November 30, 2005, at 20:05:23
>>Maybe I'm just too depressed to talk about this...
Hi there dear Tamar,
Sorry if your're still feeling so down....but, no, I don't think it's your depression "talking."
I'm not in the least depressed at the moment (for me - which is plenty good enough right now) and I reacted almost exactly as you did to those ideas.
Perhaps I'm a bit too "chicken" to even hear what the SO of a pdoc has to say.....but it's like the proverbial car wreck....possibly horrifying but you still just have to look.....
It's a confusing, scary and difficult topic. One I'm dealing with on some level right now with my T. (not romantic and/or sexual at the moment....that was ex-T <sigh> ) and it takes a lot out of both of us to try to keep working through it.
I've said some of your words and ones that mean the same just today and last week in therapy.
"I can't stand feeling I might be invisible..."
"How will I ever know, really know, that *I* - me 10der the person - matters to you? The thought I really could just not matter is awful..."
"I'm terrified that this atttachment is all just..."ho-hum" to you. And if so, that means I'm nothing, not special, not unique, not anything but a subject to be studied in here..."
And on and on...(ad nauseum, I sometimes think).
It's hard as h*ll but we keep talking about it...
Posted by Tamar on December 1, 2005, at 7:28:15
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » Tamar, posted by 10derHeart on December 1, 2005, at 1:04:12
Hi 10der,
Thanks for that!
> Perhaps I'm a bit too "chicken" to even hear what the SO of a pdoc has to say.....but it's like the proverbial car wreck....possibly horrifying but you still just have to look.....
Yeah. I couldn’t help imagining my therapist’s partner... Not that I’ve ever met her…
> It's a confusing, scary and difficult topic. One I'm dealing with on some level right now with my T. (not romantic and/or sexual at the moment....that was ex-T <sigh> ) and it takes a lot out of both of us to try to keep working through it.
Yes, it’s certainly not easy, is it?
> I've said some of your words and ones that mean the same just today and last week in therapy.
>
> "I can't stand feeling I might be invisible..."
>
> "How will I ever know, really know, that *I* - me 10der the person - matters to you? The thought I really could just not matter is awful..."
>
> "I'm terrified that this atttachment is all just..."ho-hum" to you. And if so, that means I'm nothing, not special, not unique, not anything but a subject to be studied in here..."
>
> And on and on...(ad nauseum, I sometimes think).
>
> It's hard as h*ll but we keep talking about it...You’re doing really well. It’s wonderful that you can keep talking about all this. I really admire your courage.
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on December 2, 2005, at 9:50:47
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » Tamar, posted by 10derHeart on December 1, 2005, at 1:04:12
I gotta admit, I don't like to think of my therapist talking about me to his wife, even without my name. I'm sure he probably does it, because I know I called with a crisis at least once while they were out to dinner or something. And I tracked him down after the hurricane by dialing his cell phone incessantly until the spotty communications got through and by trying text messaging. And he did meet me at the house he was staying at, which required making sure that there was no one around.
So I know she knows of his needy dependent client (who provides a hefty base income). But if he ever discloses talking about me to her, or if I ever heard her talking about him talking about me, I would be devastated. Even without names, and even in generalities that I can identify as myself.
I don't even like to know I've been discussed in supervision in a professional capacity. I sure don't want to be discussed when his therapist hat isn't on.
So I don't think it's anything you said, Cine. It's just a confirmation of a private fear for all of us.
Please keep posting. I've found your posts to be very insightful.
Posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:02:40
In reply to (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy, posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 10:36:43
Interesting and very valid perspective, but I have to respectfully but strongly disagree with this statement:
> they [mental health professionals] are taught how to deal with that.
Many of them are NOT and have NO IDEA how to deal with it. I suffered for years because of one such person, but my situation was not that unusual, I don't think. (See, e.g., "In Session: The Bond between Women and Their Therapists")
They should be, though.
Posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:08:43
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » one woman cine, posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 11:03:11
> Mostly, your post reinforces one of my biggest fears. That therapists go home and say, "God, you can't believe what I heard today. Another silly woman expressing her love for me." :(That's what I heard, too, Daisy. :(
Posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 14:33:14
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » one woman cine, posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:02:40
Hi,
Just for the record, my previous therapist was one of the WORST therapists I have ever encountered and I also share with you (anyway, I think I share) the devastating effects of bad therapy. She had no idea about frames and boundaries and on endlessly proclaimed herself to be my "good mother". It's another kind of love, but to me - it's even worse than romantic love b/c it's such a primary relationship - the mother/child bond. It's laughable to me now, how she could even propose this; & through her utter ineptitude, I have learned alot about myself and the therapy process - but it was & still is something painful I grapple with all too often.
But I still disagree; most therapists who go through proper training (& I emphasize this - b/c there is a proportion of therapists who don't, in my opinion), discuss and explore this sensitive issue in their own education and hopefully, therapy.
I hope we can agree to disagree.
Posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:44:47
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » crushedout, posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 14:33:14
Sounds like we had a similar (bad) therapy experience.
It's fine to disagree but not fair to change the statement. You backpedaled and said: "most therapists who go through proper training" -- seems kinda circular, to me. If their training is proper, then of course they have been prepared for for these sorts of issues. Maybe you are trying to suggest that we disagree as to the proportion of therapists who are properly trained? I have no idea because it sounds like you agree with me that some of them aren't, as you were a victim yourself of one such therapist.
Posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:48:58
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » one woman cine, posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:44:47
I just realized I'm being pedantic. Because I objected to the tone of the original post and felt put down by it, the way Daisy described so much more directly. Daisy, you seem like a model when it comes to expressing your feelings!you are vulnerable without lashing out and you let people know how they've made you feel without attacking them.
i think that's an amazing skill and i want to have it.
Posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 15:05:14
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy, posted by Dinah on December 2, 2005, at 9:50:47
Thanks for weighing in on this post.
I just want to say, again; that people have expressed dismay and fear that they are being discussed outside of their therapists office - but that is not what I said. Confidentialality is a sacred thing - but I understand why people would infer that's what I'm saying. I think perhaps b/c it's such a great fear.
There are good and bad therapists; I have had bad ones, horrible in fact. Now I have a good one. & part of feeling "taken care" in therapy for me, is about having a definable frame. My last therapist would call me a few times a week unasked just to "talk", our meeting times were unpredictable - & generally therapy was oozing into every portion of my life. The great thing about good therapy, I think, is that you can leave - but carry the ideas or the therapist around internally (in your head or heart). But if that isn't present, it can throw one into a serious maelstrom. It did for me.
& basically, I brought up this topic b/c I think most people in therapy "love" their therapists in one form or another. It helps to know one isn't alone with this - but I think it would've helped me alot to know early on (if I knew then what I know now, sheesh) that no matter what I did - she was never going to "love" me in the way I needed to be loved (or she promised - but that's something different). It would have been far better for me, to work on why I needed to be love in that way. There was no reality & no perspective outside of the therapy, of what was real and what wasn't. She was never going to be the mother I needed, she wasn't going to be my mother, period. I had a mother, & things didn't work out & that's something for me to explore.
I'm sorry this went off on a tangent, but I just wanted to explain part of my reason for the initial post.
& thanks for the invitation to post again, despite the difficult and uncomfortable subject.
Posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 15:10:13
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » one woman cine, posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:44:47
No, I'm not backpedaling at all. I think we disagree as to the proportion who are not properly trained. That's just an educated guess on my part, I suppose. I think psychiatrists have to be supervised, whereas (I think) social workers don't. I have had therapists who had no therapy, no supervision, no training - just school.
But I think, I would like to think, that most, most therapists are trained. I would like to think I got a bad apple.
Posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 15:10:22
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » Dinah, posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 15:05:14
and you express things beautifully. please do keep posting.
Posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 15:13:02
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » crushedout, posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 15:10:13
my guess is that most aren't, but we may be closer to agreeing than you think. i just didn't like the suggestion that *all* of them are, which came across in your original post. that, i am convinced, is untrue. i can't imagine *anyone* here who would disagree with me on this but i'd love to hear it if so.
Posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 15:13:53
In reply to you're right » one woman cine, posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 15:10:22
& thank you. I appreciate that immensely.
(Not the being right part, I don't need to be right.)
Posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 15:15:22
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » crushedout, posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 15:10:13
p.s. i suppose it's more true that you qualified--rather than backpedaled from--your first statement, to which i objected.
why on earth do i continue to be so pedantic? (please don't answer: rhetorical question.) it's satisfying but i can hardly stand myself.
Posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 15:17:47
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » one woman cine, posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 15:13:02
I think the confusion is because I said it comes up for "every professional" but I didn't qualify the next statement by saying "most" of them are trained to handle it.
Haha, i think it does come up for every professional, just some of them are totally unprepared for it and can't handle it.
Posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 15:19:59
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » crushedout, posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 15:17:47
that's what i've been trying to tell you in my own miserable way. :)
Posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 15:23:56
In reply to see! we agree! » one woman cine, posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 15:19:59
Yeah,
I try to express myself concisely and accurately, besides I love words.
But speaking for myself, when something ticks me off (maybe this post initially left you PO'd) - the words get put together differently.
I'm glad you asked so we could work this out.
Posted by daisym on December 2, 2005, at 15:33:37
In reply to Re: see! we agree! » crushedout, posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 15:23:56
In talking to my therapist about this, he said he doesn't think therapist receive enough training on this, they are given lots of information about how to protect themselves from law suits and lots of information about not gratifying the client. He said after 5 years or so of practicing (aren't you glad they practice on us?!) usually one begins to really look for training on helping the client deal with the feelings and making it part of the therapy, not part of the pathology.
And he said that believe it or not, most clients never tell their therapist they are having such intense feelings. Not to imply that the therapist can't or shouldn't figure it out, they just don't bring it out into the open to talk about. He said it is often why people quit therapy, they can't stand those feelings and don't have any other way to process them. I read him Annie's post, among others, and he said he thinks she has a great therapist who is willing to say "I care about you." Again, not that most of them don't, they just aren't willing to say it.
He also reminded me that most people do not go to therapy as often as I do so they spend their time focused on the issues that brought them in, not the relationship. Did you know that the average person spends less than a year (in a row) in therapy with the same therapist?
btw, he said he was continually amazed at the articulate and respectful discussions we have here. He thinks it should be a training ground for new therapists.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 3, 2005, at 13:01:14
In reply to Re: see! we agree!, posted by daisym on December 2, 2005, at 15:33:37
> In talking to my therapist about this, he said he doesn't think therapist receive enough training on this, they are given lots of information about how to protect themselves from law suits and lots of information about not gratifying the client.
You know, I'm not sure I even got this type of information. We get the usual training in ethics, but I think it's almost assumed that none of *US* would *EVER* do anything wrong, so maybe that's why we didn't get that training in my program?
There's a book or video series or something that presents situations where a client is expressing love or sexual feelings to the T, and it provides opportunities for the trainee to "practice" dealing with it. I also read a great article about how this is a big hole in training and that faculty and trainees should not be afraid of broaching this topic in training. I agree.
> btw, he said he was continually amazed at the articulate and respectful discussions we have here. He thinks it should be a training ground for new therapists.
I know I learn a ton from participating here, and I thank all of you for that!
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on December 3, 2005, at 13:13:15
In reply to Re: see! we agree! » daisym, posted by gardenergirl on December 3, 2005, at 13:01:14
Gosh, I wish we had a way to personally "flag" posts we want to follow up on but can't at the moment. At any rate, I think in another thread, someone asked me about if a client had ever expressed personal feelings for me and how I felt about it. At least I think someone asked me, d'oh!
At any rate, this did happen once a couple of years ago, when I was pretty much a novice trainee. It was a man very very different from me, and our therapy had switched from a CBT type approach to a more psychodynamic one over time. During this particular session, he appeared very uncomfortable and was hemming and hawing before he could eventually, near the very end of the session, tell me that he wished we could be "together." The entire time, I was just internally sort of "cringing" and wishing both that he would just spit it out in order to relieve the tension and that he wouldn't say it.
Once he did, I think, (I hope) I handled it with sensitivity and respect. And then I called my supervisor the next day to process it with her, since we didn't have supervision for a few more days. She was helpful in helping me sort through it on a sort of superficial level.
What made me so uncomfortable about this situation was my *OWN* issues with being viewed as a sexual being or object by someone, particulaly men. I really am uncomfortable about that, and it's something I've talked about in therapy. I had not yet begun therapy at the time, so I was very stuck in this issue without knowing much about why or how it was a problem.
The funny thing is, it turns out it was nothing sexual, and I figured that out rather quickly. This made working with this particular transference much easier for me. What he really wanted was a mother figure to take care of him. He was rather regressed and dependent, and had never had an adequate mother. Major abandonment issues.
So, that's my story. If anyone else I've worked with has had similar or sexual feelings, I have not been aware of it.
And I clearly need to do more work on my own issues in order to feel more comfortable dealing, in particular, with men in therapy who might view me sexually. For some reason, if women do, it doesn't affect me the same way. Not sure what that's about. Just feels less threatening.
Hope this isn't TMI.
gg
Posted by muffled on December 3, 2005, at 13:18:02
In reply to I think someone asked me in another thread..., posted by gardenergirl on December 3, 2005, at 13:13:15
That was good, if somewhat challenging to read. I think its good to see things from both directions. Our T 's are people too. Thanks.
Posted by happyflower on December 3, 2005, at 13:47:55
In reply to Re: I think someone asked me in another thread... » gardenergirl, posted by muffled on December 3, 2005, at 13:18:02
> That was good, if somewhat challenging to read. I think its good to see things from both directions. Our T 's are people too. Thanks.
My T is far from perfect and his siblings who are also T's are a lot worse off than me, and they are T's! So they are all human, and from every background just like everyone else. Some are ethical, some wished they were, and some aren't and don't care.
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