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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jammerlich on November 14, 2005, at 23:15:42
I've been thinking a lot lately about the mother and whether or not she knew what the father was doing to me. Of course I think they all *should* know, but what I'm talking about is when signals as big as billboards are there and they just don't get it. Are they really that blind or do they simply choose to ignore?
I remember a point when I was certain she knew and that it would all finally end. She was in the hallway, holding something she'd found that I had been hiding - something no 7-year-old should have to worry about. I was so relieved because I thought, "She knows, she finally knows." But she started yelling at me. Scolding me for not properly laundering these things. I was so ashamed (I'm still ashamed), yet even then I was certain she'd talk to him - make it stop. But it didn't stop.
I think she knew and turned her back on me. Is it possible to miss something like that?
Posted by happyflower on November 15, 2005, at 5:52:57
In reply to Mothers - should they have known?? ***Trigger***, posted by jammerlich on November 14, 2005, at 23:15:42
I don't know. My dad didn't know how horriable my mom was abusing me and my brother because she did it when he wasn't around. Plus we were thereatened with our lives if we told him or anyone else. Abuser are good at covering their tracks sometimes.
Posted by Frida on November 15, 2005, at 7:47:17
In reply to Mothers - should they have known?? ***Trigger***, posted by jammerlich on November 14, 2005, at 23:15:42
Hi-- I'm so sorry you still feel the shame :-(
I don't know either, but the more I've been working on it on T, the more I believe that my mother did know, but chose to ignore it because it was too much for her to face and she didn't want to see what was happening-
It's true that my father also threatened me not to tell, but there were too many signs and things that I can't understand how a mother can miss.
The abuse went on for so many years- how could she not know or realize something wrong was happening in her own house for more than 12 years?I do believe I sent my signals and tried to let her know in my way...I think that my mother didn't want to see what was happening- but i've talked it over with my T and from all I told her, she told me that as painful as it is, my mother pretended not to know (and still does), because it was too difficult for her - but it's difficult that a mother can ignore so many signs that children give out when they are being abused-
i don't know really-
I am sorry your mother didn't do anything to make it stop :-(
Sending you support,
Frida
> I've been thinking a lot lately about the mother and whether or not she knew what the father was doing to me. Of course I think they all *should* know, but what I'm talking about is when signals as big as billboards are there and they just don't get it. Are they really that blind or do they simply choose to ignore?
>
> I remember a point when I was certain she knew and that it would all finally end. She was in the hallway, holding something she'd found that I had been hiding - something no 7-year-old should have to worry about. I was so relieved because I thought, "She knows, she finally knows." But she started yelling at me. Scolding me for not properly laundering these things. I was so ashamed (I'm still ashamed), yet even then I was certain she'd talk to him - make it stop. But it didn't stop.
>
> I think she knew and turned her back on me. Is it possible to miss something like that?
Posted by allisonross on November 15, 2005, at 8:30:37
In reply to Mothers - should they have known?? ***Trigger***, posted by jammerlich on November 14, 2005, at 23:15:42
>Hi, sweetie: According to everything I've read, etc., MOST mothers DO know; it is easier on them if they pretend they don't.
There's lots of reasons; fear that the husband will leave, is one of them. Of course this is all narcissistic behavior on the part of the mother.
They "sacrifice" their child.
I've been thinking a lot lately about the mother and whether or not she knew what the father was doing to me. Of course I think they all *should* know, but what I'm talking about is when signals as big as billboards are there and they just don't get it. Are they really that blind or do they simply choose to ignore?
most choose to ignore. How horrific; I cannot imagine that.
>
> I remember a point when I was certain she knew and that it would all finally end. She was in the hallway, holding something she'd found that I had been hiding - something no 7-year-old should have to worry about. I was so relieved because I thought, "She knows, she finally knows." But she started yelling at me. Scolding me for not properly laundering these things.Instead of being authentic/real, she was angry (that she knew, probably; only a guess), and so punished you with her misguided anger. her anger belonged and should have been placed on the criminal (your father)
I was so ashamed (I'm still ashamed), yet even then I was certain she'd talk to him - make it stop. But it didn't stop.
I am so sad for you. This is the horrific nature of abuse; the perpetrator goes on with his life, as if nothing had ever happened. The victim (always hated that word), is left with all of the shame/blame, and lives with that. Totally backwards!!
> I think she knew and turned her back on me. Is it possible to miss something like that?I think not. As painful as it is to realize this is common ( I cannot fathom it), but if a woman is dependent on her husband, and fearful he might leave her, this is what can happen, along with a host of other reasons there can be.
I am so sorry. Are you in counseling? I've been counseling abused women for the past 10 years (no degree, but 31 years of experience and research); I was molested also (never knew my father), but a different situation (asleep in my bed, while my mother left me alone at night; didn't even know who it was);
Long story; you can read it if you like: www.psychiatricjournal.com, entitled; The Transcendent Child on Overcoming Verbal and Spiritual Abuse
love and hugs, Ally (e-mail me if you like: wacalice@aol.com)
Posted by B2chica on November 15, 2005, at 9:40:23
In reply to Mothers - should they have known?? ***Trigger***, posted by jammerlich on November 14, 2005, at 23:15:42
you would think they would. after reading "the courage to heal" they mentioned in the book many ways children send signs that they are being abused, i showed at least 8 of them, yet she never knew. she always took my abusers word, i was the liar, making things up, cry baby...etc.
i'm so sorry this happened to you. just know you are in a loving place here. you are safe now.
maybe someday you might confront her...but remember that's not necessary to deal with your issues.
FWIW
b2c.
Posted by allisonross on November 15, 2005, at 10:18:13
In reply to Mothers - should they have known?? ***Trigger***, posted by jammerlich on November 14, 2005, at 23:15:42
Hi, sweetie: Just one more thought. You may want to confront your mother, if you thught she might be honest with you (only you know how she is). You might also want to write a letter to her.
The term: Restorative Justice is the most valuable words i ever learned from my t. Meaning: This is what you did; this is how it made me feel. SO empowering to someone abused for a lifetime (me).
Is your father still alive? he should also get a dose of "restorative justice"
I called my mother up (original abuser), and asked why she didnt do anything about what happened to me.
her responses were (the usual, denial, etc) pathetic, and my heart was pounding, etc.,
but I knew I needed to do it, to help heal that little child (me) who was never protected, and only abused. I told her I "forgave" her, although I was doing that for myself, really. I didn't want to have any regrets.
I believe it is necessary in order to heal, to confront our abusers
(with restorative justice); otherwise we are the ones who suffer. That's backwards.
Hugs, Ally
Posted by Gee on November 15, 2005, at 13:52:26
In reply to Re: Mothers - Restorative Justice/Did she know? » jammerlich, posted by allisonross on November 15, 2005, at 10:18:13
I think mothers do know. I agree with the idea that they choose to scacrifice a child.
My mom knew my dad was verbally abusing me, and once I came right out and asked her to leave my dad, and she told me that she wouldn't choose between the two of us.
This summer my dad and I had a huge fight (he threw me out but then said he didn't mean it, but I went to my gramma's for the night anyways. My gram and I had a big heart to heart, and she told me that my mom had said that she would choose myself and my sis over my dad. More proof mothers do know.
I'm so sorry what you had to go through. It should have been a huge sign to your mom and she should have listened. I hope things are better for you now
Posted by muffled on November 15, 2005, at 15:14:04
In reply to Re: Mothers - Did she know?, posted by Gee on November 15, 2005, at 13:52:26
Posted by jammerlich on November 15, 2005, at 17:50:12
In reply to Re: Mothers - should they have known?? ***Trigger*** » jammerlich, posted by Frida on November 15, 2005, at 7:47:17
What kind of signals did you all send out? I'm not sure I understand. I don't think I sent any, at least not on purpose. I think I always wanted her to find out and was also terrified that she would. But in that instant in the hallway there was complete relief. Maybe that means the innermost part of me did want her to find out. She'd found my blood stained underpants. I hid them because I was embarrassed. After that, I rinsed them in the sink and hung them in the back of my closet to dry before putting them in the hamper.
I simply can't fathom how a mother could turn a blind eye to that. I was 7, it wasn't my period. She must have absolutely hated me for it. If she was going to pretend nothing was happening, she could have at least not mentioned finding them. Maybe she wanted to be sure she wasn't presented with any more evidence. But I'm not a parent myself, so maybe it's not for me to understand.
I'm also unable to comprehend how fear of being alone (leaving a man) is worth allowing a child to suffer that. She was selfish and cowardly if you ask me. But, that's probably a result of how I grew up. I learned very early that there is no such thing as being rescued. 'Rescue' and 'safe' should be abolished from our language. Those things don't exist. I'm fiercely independent. I am married, but honestly, I think I'd rather just be alone. That's from my childhood too. Did any of you ever imagine getting away - escaping? I did, but I never fantasized about being able to live with someone else. It was always about being on my own. Is that strange. When I was little, I loved reading books about children who ran away from home and found a place of their own. Like "Mandy", "The Railway Children" and "My Side of the Mountain". I always thought it was such a shame when there parents found them or some other adult took them in - even though these were "good" people.
I could never, ever confront either of them. This is where my downfall is. I am an only child and feel absolutely obligated to them. It's already difficult for me (emotionally, that is) and they're still young - in their 50s. I dread what it'll be like as they get older. So much so I hope I go before they do. Last spring my mother was ill. I was at the doctor with her, it looked like things were serious and she started to cry. I was so torn, knowing that any other person I would be quick to offer comfort. But I didn't want to go anywhere near her. But I did. While hugging her, I noticed a mirror on the wall and all I could think about was how I'd love to stand her in front of that mirror, with my hands on either side of her head - forcing her to look, and tell her, "See how ugly you are to look at when you cry," just like she did to me. I feel like such a mean, horrible person.
Posted by jammerlich on November 15, 2005, at 17:52:53
In reply to Re: Mothers - should they have known?? ***Trigger***, posted by jammerlich on November 15, 2005, at 17:50:12
One did, but not the first two. I don't know how it works.
Posted by muffled on November 15, 2005, at 19:10:21
In reply to Re: Mothers - should they have known?? ***Trigger***, posted by jammerlich on November 15, 2005, at 17:50:12
I still have my copy of my side of the mtn. from when I was a kid! It was like my bible. I would try and do the stuff in the book. My dreams growing up were all about going and living in the bush, like a hermit. Sometimes I'd daydream that everybody on earth was dead and I could goto ANY store I wanted and get stuff.
My other daydream was I'd have 15 mins. to gather what I needed to survive and then I'd be dropped in the bush to see if I'd survive.
There were a couple of other easy readers that I loved. One about an escapee out of a juvenile detention center, and the other is 'I am David'. I also liked run baby run. I LOVED reading.
I'm a parent, and I would like to think i would never shy away from such evidence, but everyone is different. Some are weak (NOT me!!!!!!), and maybe when confronted with the unthinkable they dissociate and don't know. Maybe they dissociate well cuz they had to from when THEY were kids.
This is what I try and think of regarding my parents not noticing I was such a troubled child. Maybe they just didn't know.......
Posted by daisym on November 16, 2005, at 0:55:51
In reply to Its called DENIAL (nm), posted by muffled on November 15, 2005, at 15:14:04
I think it might be called Pain.
None of us can really know and I believe that as children we engage in magical thinking -- we believe our mothers can read our minds and just know everything. So the clues we might be leaving seem huge -- but were they really?
It is something I've absolutely agonized over. I can make strong cases on both sides, her knowing and not knowing. After all, I didn't know about my sister...
I've asked my therapist if he would have known. He said he would hope so, but it is amazing how underground these things can be.
I don't know what else to say, except perhaps to not judge too harshly. How much pain must a person be in to not see what is happening to their child?
Posted by allisonross on November 16, 2005, at 10:49:44
In reply to Re: Its called DENIAL, posted by daisym on November 16, 2005, at 0:55:51
> I think it might be called Pain.
Most people do what they need to do, to stay out of pain.
However, MOST mothers know something is wrong. Even if they DO NOT know for sure, there are so many signs (child's behavior). If for many reasons, they choose not to ask, then of course the child continues to be abused.
>
> None of us can really know and I believe that as children we engage in magical thinking -- we believe our mothers can read our minds and just know everything. So the clues we might be leaving seem huge -- but were they really?Depending on the child, there can be a whole HOST of clues, bedwetting, fear of being left alone (with the molester), clingyness, all kinds of things, that are not normal.
>
> It is something I've absolutely agonized over. I can make strong cases on both sides, her knowing and not knowing. After all, I didn't know about my sister...usually that is the case, one sibling doesn't know about the other one.
>
> I've asked my therapist if he would have known. He said he would hope so, but it is amazing how underground these things can be.
>
> I don't know what else to say, except perhaps to not judge too harshly. How much pain must a person be in to not see what is happening to their child?Cannot answer that one, but I can tell you for sure that I (although I lived wth abuse for 31 years, was excruciatingly aware of my children's behavior and feelings; but I am a hypersensitive person).
I don't see how being in pain would prevent anyone from noticing behavior in their child that is not "normal", but then I would have to have specifics on that one.
>
Hugs, AllyP.S. I have read where mothers do something that is called "sacrificing' their children....they don't want to have sex with the husband, so they allow molesting to go on, and look the other way. How horrific.....as mothers, we are suposed to be nurturers, and protectors; I cannot......imagine this.
>
Posted by antigua on November 16, 2005, at 12:30:43
In reply to Mothers - should they have known?? ***Trigger***, posted by jammerlich on November 14, 2005, at 23:15:42
This is the most difficult subject for me and I'm sorry I can't be of any help. I'm not there yet, but I do appreciate reading everyone else's responses.
take care,
antigua
Posted by jammerlich on November 16, 2005, at 12:50:35
In reply to Re: Mothers - should they have known?? ***Trigger*** » jammerlich, posted by antigua on November 16, 2005, at 12:30:43
Posted by muffled on November 16, 2005, at 13:50:19
In reply to Re: Its called DENIAL » daisym, posted by allisonross on November 16, 2005, at 10:49:44
The only way a mother could let her child be hurt is if she's EVIL. She would have to be completely and utterly FILLED with EVIL.
Goes against all the laws of nature to let your kid be hurt. All mothers who consciously let their child be hurt are evil and will rot in hell FOREVER.
So they either know or they don't.
Craziness. This is too craziness.
It can only be that way.
Otherwise what the hell anyways.
Sh**********************t.
Posted by jammerlich on November 16, 2005, at 14:40:36
In reply to Mothers***Trigger***Trigger***, posted by muffled on November 16, 2005, at 13:50:19
(((((muffled)))))
It looks like you got a lot of anger out there and I'm glad you did. It's far better to put it down in words than to keep it all bottled up inside, don't you think?
It's scarey to me to think about being a parent. I think that probably has a lot to do with why I've chosen not to have children. I'm afraid I might not be able to live up to my own expectations about what I think my parents should have been. I think the only thing worse than what happened to me would be to have it happen to my own child, and find myself sitting back and allowing it. THAT is something I could not survive.
Posted by jammerlich on November 16, 2005, at 14:50:44
In reply to Re: Its called DENIAL, posted by daisym on November 16, 2005, at 0:55:51
>>>> It is something I've absolutely agonized over. I can make strong cases on both sides, her knowing and not knowing. After all, I didn't know about my sister...<<<<< Daisy, I just want to be clear that I think there is a HUGE difference between a parent's responsibility and that of a sibling. You were not in any way responsible for knowing what was happening to your sister. That was your mother's job, not yours.
>>>>> I don't know what else to say, except perhaps to not judge too harshly. How much pain must a person be in to not see what is happening to their child?
<<<<< Let me start out by saying that I don't mean this to sound snippy - I really want to know. How are you able to recognize this possible pain and use it in a way to help yourself without thinking it some kind of excuse for poor behavior? Whenever I hear something like that, I feel like it minimizes my own pain. Like I shouldn't complain b/c after all, that other person suffered too.
Maybe I'm just too judgemental. I guess I really believe that when a person chooses to become a parent they should be held to somewhat of a higher standard. Meaning that their pain should always come second to that of their children. It just can't be an excuse. Maybe that's something I need to re-evaluate.
Posted by daisym on November 16, 2005, at 19:08:25
In reply to Re: Its called DENIAL » daisym, posted by jammerlich on November 16, 2005, at 14:50:44
It is never my intention to minimize someone else's pain...never. And I struggled with how to post in this thread without it sounding like I was defending anyone who either abused a child or looked the other way.
But...the question posed wasn't "how could a mother look the other way?" it was (paraphrased) "how could she not know?" Like most things in life, there is no universal answer to this question. Do I think the evidence (as discussed above) indicated something was wrong? Sure. In that specific case, it seems that the mother didn't ask questions. We can speculate that her motive was she didn't want to know. It is horribly painful either way -- to have her know and do nothing, or to have her not be tuned in enough to know.
I think there are situations where mothers are struggling with their lives, their marriages, their jobs, their self-esteem and don't pay attention to much else. I'm not saying it is right. And there are people who don't pick up subtle signs, they might not have any experience with this type of thing, they might not be very smart, or they just are sort of obtuse. We've all met people like that, right? Just because you become a mother doesn't mean you magically transform into someone who is empathetic, observant and attuned. Lots of people have children who shouldn't. And lots of people love their children a great deal and still aren't good at parenting. Most of the parents I know want to do what is best for their children. They don't always know what is best. And how many times did we, as children, do things that our mothers never knew about? Trust is a powerful blindfold.
I just wanted to try to balance things a little here by bringing in the possibility that a mother REALLY might not know. Especially mothers of those of us over 30 or 35 (I'm 43) -- this stuff was NEVER talked about. There weren't magazines around that listed the signals children give off, there weren't talk shows or movies about this. This stuff happened to other people, to "bad" families. And it was pretty unthinkable for a woman to get a divorce, especially if she had children, before the 1970s. There were no mandatory reporting laws, either for schools or for therapists. And even today, who looks at their husband and believes he is capable of such a thing?
My point is that csa might not be as easy to see as we as children thought it was. Did my mother know? I will emphatically answer, if she didn't, she should have. And if she did know, she should have done something. But I can't dismiss the possibility that she just didn't see it.
Again -- not excuses for not doing anything. Just asking you to allow for the possibility that some parents (mom or dad) just don't know what is really going on. And a final thought -- how come dads aren't held as accountable when moms (or grandpa or uncle Joe)abuse kids?
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 16, 2005, at 22:00:29
In reply to Sorry, double quotes didn't link to right books, posted by jammerlich on November 15, 2005, at 17:52:53
> One did, but not the first two. I don't know how it works.
If you scroll down when you get your preview, you can check the links...
Bob
Posted by jammerlich on November 16, 2005, at 22:26:38
In reply to Re: Its called DENIAL » jammerlich, posted by daisym on November 16, 2005, at 19:08:25
>>>>>> It is never my intention to minimize someone else's pain...never. And I struggled with how to post in this thread without it sounding like I was defending anyone who either abused a child or looked the other way.
<<<<<<< I know that you, of all people, would never intend to minimize another person's pain. I, for one, am very glad you decided to post here. And it seems I did a really terrible job at expressing myself (but no real surprise there - it seems to be a trend). Reading your earlier post, it just seemed to me that you've been able to come to a place where you're able to acknowledge that other person's pain and see how it fits into the picture without having it somehow lessen or invalidate your own. You don't seem defensive about it - but I am. I just wondered how you came to that place. Was it a lightbulb moment or some kind of slow progression, or what? And maybe it isn't even something that can be explained. Maybe it's something that just happens. I wish it would just happen for me!!! It seems like a much more peaceful, compassionate place.
>>>>>> I just wanted to try to balance things a little here by bringing in the possibility that a mother REALLY might not know.
<<<<<< I agree that sometimes (maybe even MOST of the time)a mother absolutely has no idea. I guess I was trying to express my pain because I feel like there was that moment in my life where any parent who had 1/2 their wits about them would HAVE to see that there was some problem. For some reason, that feels more hurtful to me than if she just never knew. Like she turned her back on me - the ultimate abandonment. What must that say about me that she would do that?
>>>>>> And a final thought -- how come dads aren't held as accountable when moms (or grandpa or uncle Joe)abuse kids?
<<<<<< That's hard - and I think you're exactly right that this happens - a lot! I'm trying to think about what my opinions are here and when abuse is happening within the home itself, I'm comfortable in saying that I hold both parents equally accountable. But when it's grandpa and uncle Joe, I find myself placing most of the accountability with the mother again. And I know that's wrong - old and stupid stereotypes coming into play.
Daisy, thanks for trying to keep this conversation balanced. I really do appreciate your perspective.
Posted by antigua on November 17, 2005, at 7:55:42
In reply to Re: Its called DENIAL » jammerlich, posted by daisym on November 16, 2005, at 19:08:25
This is the end of the thread.
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