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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pinkeye on July 29, 2005, at 15:00:59
Dear Ms. Lott,
I have a question, which kind of plagues the mind of every babbler here. How to Survive termination? And how do we deal with the fact of losing all contact after termination with our therapists?
Is it really mandatory for a therapist to stop all contact with a former patient? It really puts the client's mind through intense hell - to suddenly stop contacting the one person who you have been treating as a close friend and associate for perhaps several years. And when the therapists don't allow any post termination contact, it makes us feel like creeps, and makes us feel like we are suddenly becoming unwanted, and untouchable even. The one person who was willing to work with you, listen to you, comfort you and console you, suddenly one day turns almost into an enemy and doesn't want to hear from you and talk to you and thinks of you as a nuisance. And it turns even decent clients into jerks, and makes us think of ourselves like stalkers wanting to call or email or hope to hear atleast a little bit from our ex therapists once in a while - maybe once in couple of months or once in 3 - 4 months.
But therapists, brutally terminate, and they don't reply to emails, and they start being completely rude and cold. And in spite of us being the best of the clients, and not creating any problems to them, they still terminate that way. And even when we tell them how bad it is making us feel, they still don't listen and somehow think that is the right thing to do. IT has happened to some of us in the board, and we are going through hell to cope us with it.
And it is really so very horrible to put up with that sudden change of face, and it blows out every trust we ever had in the process and in the counsellor.
In your mind, how do we cope up with this, and is it appropriate for therapists to maintain some contact post termination irrespective of if the therapist retired or moved away, or if the client has started visiting some other therapist? How bad could it be to write a two liner email once in 3 months to a former client, if it would help the client so immensely to not hurt?
I would like to know your opinion on this.
Posted by messadivoce on July 29, 2005, at 19:11:52
In reply to Lott: Q on termination and post term contact, posted by pinkeye on July 29, 2005, at 15:00:59
My therapist told me that I could write to him and "to call whenever I wanted". And then 2 months later, when I asked him when would be a good time to call, he told me that I couldn't. He stopped writing lengthy replies to my e-mails. I wrote him a letter telling him how much it hurt me, and he replied that "the professional guidelines state that there is to be no contact for 2 years after termination, and many therapists believe that there should never be contact."
His replies to my e-mails have been a few sentences. It hurts, but it is a hurt I can live with, I guess. I keep writing him every so often, and I don't know why I do because I'm always hurt a little when he shoots back 3 sentences. If he had told me upfront what the post-termination rules of contact were going to be, I could have been prepared. It's just too hard to match the coolness of his messages to the warm, compassionate man I knew.
And by the way, he never even apologized for telling me something he wasn't prepared to honor later.
Posted by Dinah on July 29, 2005, at 22:11:36
In reply to I second you, posted by messadivoce on July 29, 2005, at 19:11:52
To my knowledge he's incorrect. Unless he was planning to have a romantic relationship with you, he can keep in contact. Many therapists seem to do that.
Posted by fairywings on July 29, 2005, at 22:20:14
In reply to I second you, posted by messadivoce on July 29, 2005, at 19:11:52
Hi messa, I agree with Dinah, any chance he wanted to have a romantic relationship with you?
The 2 yr guideline is for romantic relationships.FW
Posted by messadivoce on July 29, 2005, at 23:43:55
In reply to Re: I second you » messadivoce, posted by fairywings on July 29, 2005, at 22:20:14
Okay, I consulted his e-mail that I kept, and his exact words were "communication in the context of a social relationship cannot occur for at least 2 years."
The problem was, I didn't even see it as social. I didn't know WHAT it was. I just missed him.
But like you, I though that the 2 year mark applied only to a sexual relationship. Who says that social contact cannot occur for 2 years? My second T said that the 2 year claus, even though stated in a sexual context, is "understood" in the professional therapy world as being all social contact. Wish I could have "understood" that.
Posted by daisym on July 30, 2005, at 14:04:27
In reply to Re: I second you, posted by messadivoce on July 29, 2005, at 23:43:55
It sounds like the whole thing got muddled because he was trying to ease out and not hurt you, but like most things that go this way, he did anyway. You know a bad break up, "let's be friends?" but that isn't honest? This is exactly what I meant by honest disclosure above, he should have faced your grief and helped you move on. I don't remember if he was staying in the field or just moving away... but if he is still a practicing therapist, contact of a theraputic sense should be fine. If the emails were "how are you, how is the family" these would be considered social. And I think due to so many law suits and stuff the whole field has become ultra shy about this.
I'm sorry you are hurting so much.
Posted by gardenergirl on July 31, 2005, at 20:25:48
In reply to Re: I second you, posted by messadivoce on July 29, 2005, at 23:43:55
> Okay, I consulted his e-mail that I kept, and his exact words were "communication in the context of a social relationship cannot occur for at least 2 years."
Okay, admittedly, I don't have decades of experience, but that is not how I have ever seen that rule interpreted. My guess is his confusing responses are indicative of his own issues.
I'm sorry that those issues have hurt you in the process.
gg
Posted by 10derHeart on August 2, 2005, at 1:46:14
In reply to Re: I second you, posted by messadivoce on July 29, 2005, at 23:43:55
> The problem was, I didn't even see it as social. I didn't know WHAT it was. I just missed him.
And there you have really gotten to what may be the heart of the issue, especially when your T. physically moves away. I think Ts. need to- MUST - figure out how they are going to define it - better sooner than later. Unfortunately, perhaps it takes a special blend of experience, good instincts and courage to be able to pull this post-term. contact off in a way that works for everyone...
Most of you know my story (well, not Ms. Lott. obviously, but I'll recap it later, if needed..) I am certainly the poster child for gentle, skillful termination, and am eternally grateful. My pdoc, when termination had to happen last summer when he moved away, eventually catagorized the continued email contact he agreed to, as "transitional therapy."
Now as good as he was at handling the whole thing, I could tell the first couple months he really hadn't thought of how he'd label it, or what his training told him (likely nothing, from what I gathered later on) he should do. He didn't really bring it up. I forced the issue at one point as I became frustrated trying to sort out how he was okay with it - and frankly as you said Voce, what *it* even was - when previously he'd cautioned me when talking abou our contact, not to forget about ethical issues, his not being licensed in my state any more, etc. It was then he started describing this as supporting me by email until I found a new T. He was very honest about it, and never tried to act like he wasn't treading on new ground, or that it wasn't confusing and risky for him. As of last year, he'd been a pdoc for 16 years, and said I was the first person to ever ask, straight out, to stay in contact after termination. In his simple way of speaking, he said he'd only known me during therapy to ask for things that were reasonable, and since maintaining contact when Iwas so attached was reasonable, too, he had no problem with it. If only it was just that simple with everyone - just be reasonable and poof!! - no abandonment and much less pain... :-(
And, even though I've been w/current T. for 7 months, ex-T. is still in touch. All I can say is once, when I expressed still-intense fear of him one day saying, "Stop writing to me," (abruptly? maybe) about 3 months ago, he said he supposed he'd probably do that (though not abruptly) *if* he thought it was therapeutic, but he "didn't know enough" to say that, so he wouldn't. His only concern was what current T. felt about it, which was - and is - to be fine with the contact. It does NOT interfere with our therapy realationship now, which I'm sure is key. I'd say that it's been fine because both ex-T and I have been very careful not to "do therapy" every since I had my current T. Not easy at first, but it's been manageable, because we both are willing to make it that way. And we've VERY gradually weaned me off the 2-3x a week emailing, which would make it more likely to slip into a therapist-client mode.
I think a lot of it is that all three parties is this scenario have been open, honest, and determined to fight for what's best for ME as a unique individual, whether or not they've (or I've) encountered the feelings or situation before.
For what it's worth, this "transitional" therapy concept was totally fine in my ex T's (pdoc) way of thinking as a psychiatrist, ethically, I mean. Maybe he was/is technically wrong somehow, and perhaps, having never gone through this before, he rationalized his way around a rigid interpretation of the rules - for my sake? If so, nice to see a T. make choices out of a place like that within himself, isn't it? No doubt he knows he has nothing to worry about from me - trust goes deep both ways. It's worked out immensely in my best interest, and been truly a healing thing.
Posted by fairywings on August 2, 2005, at 7:22:45
In reply to Re: what *it* was (long) » messadivoce, posted by 10derHeart on August 2, 2005, at 1:46:14
Wow 10der,
You are so blessed to have a T/p-doc who is so caring. Wish they were all that way.
FW
Posted by 10derHeart on August 2, 2005, at 13:01:25
In reply to Re: what *it* was (long) » 10derHeart, posted by fairywings on August 2, 2005, at 7:22:45
> Wow 10der,
>
> You are so blessed to have a T/p-doc who is so caring. Wish they were all that way.
>
> FWI know, I know. I often think of it as an embarrassment of riches, because it's been both ex-T. and current T. And I try to tread carefully as to what and when I post about it. I know maybe sometimes it can be "too much" to those who are having a less-than-ideal experience....and I'd rather hurt myself than upset one precious Babbler here... :-(
But, I've been told it could instill hope in those reading that there *are* Ts willing and able to deal with something so tough, highly important and emotional as termination can be, without messing it all up, or sort of "running away."
I think....maybe Ts that actually "don't care" are few and far between. I think it's more they are only human, poorly trained and/or supervised, and just lost when it comes to dealing with this phase. My ex-T. said he can't recall spending mch time at all on this when being trained as a p-doc. He also said even now, it's tough for him to find much written that would be practically helpful -it's too clinical amd too much from the T's POV...
Under these conditions, some T's it seems, don't try at all to work through all the feelings openly (too scary for them; their own issues are geting in the way?) or they fall right back on rules and textbook stuff and lose sight of that client as a person. It's sad and awful for us on this side of the room, when that happens.
Hopefully, the especially good ones, like my ex, cause a ripple effect in those they deal with as they before the old, wise T's. That should help some in the future.
PS - I've been gone a while, never had the chance to say I love your new posting name. It's beautiful!
Posted by fairywings on August 2, 2005, at 13:31:59
In reply to Re: what *it* was (long) » fairywings, posted by 10derHeart on August 2, 2005, at 13:01:25
> Hopefully, the especially good ones, like my ex, cause a ripple effect in those they deal with as they before the old, wise T's. That should help some in the future.I hope you are right 10der. I have a feeling I will need it when the time comes. I guess being able to ask for what you need comes first, and then hope the response is an answer to what you need and can handle.
>
> PS - I've been gone a while, never had the chance to say I love your new posting name. It's beautiful!Thanks, you are so sweet!
fairywings
Posted by orchid on August 5, 2005, at 20:55:31
In reply to Lott: Q on termination and post term contact, posted by pinkeye on July 29, 2005, at 15:00:59
I would really like to know why you think contact after termination is not a good idea.
This is the end of the thread.
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