Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 46. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 1:15:07
I should respond to all the great posts, support, advice and hugs above but I can't seem to take it in right now. But know that I appreciate and love all of you for trying to help. I think I'm posting/journaling here to help me look at some of these ideas in a more concrete way. Please forgive me for the length.
I think one of the hardest parts about all this is how much it is effecting those around me. It feels like a sword with no handle, just blades back-to-back, cutting me when I hang on tight but cutting others when I try to hand it off. I want desperately to feel better, to feel more in control or to at least be able to fake it and hide it better. I've said as much to my therapist and he just goes nuts. He tells me this is how it all got out of control in the first place, planning without talking about it. He is still bringing up the fact that I mailed him a short note (it wasn't a good-bye nor an explanation, just a sort of "I wanted to make sure you were paid, I don't care what you do about the insurance, take care of yourself note) and his final check. He already knew by then how I was feeling but he said it rocked him. And a good friend called him and left a message that she was really worried Tuesday morning and he couldn't reach me for a couple of hours. He said it scared the "bgeebees" out of him.
We've been trying to narrow things down so we can look at what he is calling the "mortal wound" -- the one that is really too painful to live with. I think we sort of discovered it yesterday and we talked more about it today. I said it boils down to two sentences: "I desperately want to be taken care of. And I know it is never going to happen." I know this old and very young. This is the little girl crying for her mother. Intellectually I know that I can't undo, I can't go back. I just don't know how to stop wanting what I'll never be able to have. I said to him, "I want you to take care of me, to rescue and protect me." We talked about how I've got it all set up again - a re-enactment of my childhood with my therapist playing the role of my mother, only he knows I'm in pain. But he still can't protect me from my husband's anger and he can't take care of me 24/7. We even talked about how these suicidal feelings are now the new "secret" I'm living with, with the same kind of terror and embarrassment, wanting people to know and nurture you but not risking their horrified reaction by actually telling them. And then wondering how the he** no one can see that you are suffering!!
I lost it Monday night and stormed at my therapist. And then got terrified about having done that. Instead of being mad he said, "It is about time" -- sheesh! I asked him today if it was OK that I keep saying I want this -- to be taken care of -- and that I want it from him. He said he does want to protect me and take care of me, and help me learn how to get that from other people. He said it doesn't have to be "all me" or "all them." He knows how hard it is for me to not believe that if I let anyone help me, I'll give over all my power to them, all the control and they will hurt me. He is gentle about pointing out that he can't be there 24/7 and he worries about how much I'm suffering alone. He had some ideas about this, which I'm not ready for, but I was surprised (and relieved) that he is OK with how huge and completely irrational this need is. He is kind of cute about his cell phone, he keeps telling me it is on and by the bed and he keeps checking it to make sure he hasn't missed my call. (Yeah, I think he is worried.)
We agree that I'm mourning and that the trauma of not being saved by my mother is probably a deeper wound than the actual abuse. But how do you get over that? How do you "just" let it go? Intellectually I know all the right answers. It all just bounces off against this enormous pain. And I can totally see the transference, and I'm powerless to stop it. At what point does my therapist step back and say, "I can't be your mother, you have to get a hold of yourself and grow up." Wow, just writing that brings on the tears. Because secretly these days I've decided I'm aging in reverse. I was a grown up at 9. Now at 43 I want to be held and comforted like a 9 year old. And that just isn't allowed.
It feels like I'll never work through this, even though I've named it. I'm open to suggestions.
Posted by Shortelise on July 28, 2005, at 2:09:10
In reply to Wanting a mommy (long) trigger, posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 1:15:07
I think he'll tell you it's time to grow up when you're ready. Not before. So when it happens, it'll be more ok than you can imagine right now.
I'm the pot and the kettle's black!!!
If my T had said to me two years ago the things he has taken to saying these last months, I would have shattered into a thousand pieces. Now I am just sort of oozing and aching; just cracking a little.
Daisy, I am so sorry.
ShortE
Posted by Dinah on July 28, 2005, at 2:18:29
In reply to Wanting a mommy (long) trigger, posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 1:15:07
I wish I knew what to say, but I don't.
Except that I understand.
And I'm glad you're able to express anger.
Safe cyberhugs.
Dinah
Posted by alexandra_k on July 28, 2005, at 4:13:11
In reply to Wanting a mommy (long) trigger, posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 1:15:07
>At what point does my therapist step back and say, "I can't be your mother, you have to get a hold of yourself and grow up."
I don't think he will ever say that.
Because...
It wouldn't do any damned good.
You will grow up when you are good and ready to and not before.I think... That over time... You will start to come to some peace and the urge to be looked after like that will just receed.
Because... You will come to appreciate the freedoms etc you get with being an adult and come to want them even more than you want to be a looked after kid.
Does that make any sense???
I'm just talking really...
And wondering aloud about how it is supposed to go...
Posted by Dinah on July 28, 2005, at 6:28:00
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » daisym, posted by alexandra_k on July 28, 2005, at 4:13:11
I don't think growing up or wanting more freedom or less nurturing is universal.
I'm exhibit A.
I'd rather self implode than grow up.
Not to say anyone else at all, and certainly not Daisy in particular would feel that way.
More to say that my therapist says that's ok too.
Posted by annierose on July 28, 2005, at 7:26:19
In reply to Wanting a mommy (long) trigger, posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 1:15:07
Dasiy -
I am just so happy that you are still talking about all these feelings without acting on them. I was worrying about you too!
I want to be taken care of too. And sometimes I feel that there must be something wrong with me that I don't feel that feeling more strongly. I made most of my decisions from a very early age. My parents had their hands full with 5 children and a drug addicted first born child. Any energy my mom had at all (which was very little to begin with) was spent trying to keep him in school, get him into a rehab program (I think he was in 5 - 7 different programs over time), etc. Being the 4th child out of 5, no one cared about me. I just took care of myself.
And it is so tiring, isn't it?
I always tell my T that it is exhausting always be the organized, competent, thinking, compassionate one. When do we get to fall apart?
I think it shows strength in your relationship with your therapist that you were able to "storm" at him. You trust it enough to weather the harder times ... which is now.
I don't think we ever get over trauma of our past. I think by talking about it over and over, feeling the pain that we had to hide in order to survive, again and again, having our trusty therapist be kind and compassionate and LISTENING to us (something our moms didn't do very well) ... that over time, the pain dulls and becomes bearable. Instead of holding it and all the energy it takes to keep it a secret, the power of the trauma is diminished. And it becomes a part of who we are, but it doesn't define us.
For me, therapy has helped me at extended family gatherings. I sit there and watch all these dysfunctional interactions. I try not to be part of the conversation very often. Instead, I like being the fly on the wall. It's safer, except when they try to swat at me. I shake my head and say to myself, "and they wonder why I go to therapy 3x per week ..."
I like your T's term, "the mortal wound". I like that description. The pain you do anything and everything to avoid feeling. Except ... at a very gifted therapist's office.
Good Luck Daisy. Please keep talking. You are so very important!
Annierose
p.s. I didn't mean to talk so much about me, but your post resonated with me. I'm looking forward to my session this afternoon.
Posted by Dinah on July 28, 2005, at 8:01:58
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » daisym, posted by annierose on July 28, 2005, at 7:26:19
I too was a parentified child. I did all the cooking and cleaning, starting shortly after my brother came. Early teens? Tweens? Plus mowed our yard and attached lot. Plus brokered agreements between my parents. And of course, I never was all that young even before then. Surrogate spouse for my mother and all that.
I wonder that since being an awfully young grownup is a common thread among us, if it accounts for the need to be nurtured now.
At any rate, I like that my therapist says it's ok. And that I never have to grow up if I don't want to.
Posted by annierose on July 28, 2005, at 9:00:55
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » annierose, posted by Dinah on July 28, 2005, at 8:01:58
I do think it's interesting too, that the need to be nurtured is a common thread for a lot of us. Is that why we analyze the theraputic relationship so much? Is that what draws us to seek out support like babble? That our relationship to our T is so important?
My 11 year old daughter and I went for a walk last evening. And she commented, "I think it's funny that you don't like it when xxx goes on vacation. I like it when my T goes away, I do the happy dance." And without hesitation, I replied, "When I go away on business, even for a few days, don't you get sad?" "Well, of course," she said. "That is how it feels for mom. I feel that close to xxx. My mommy and daddy didn't make time for me." She took it all in and said, "I'm sorry mom. I'm here for you." It was a very nice moment. And I never thought of that perspective before, when I go away, this is how my children must feel.
Posted by cricket on July 28, 2005, at 9:18:38
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » annierose, posted by Dinah on July 28, 2005, at 8:01:58
((((DaisyM))))))
I don't know what to say other than I've been listening and feeling for you.
I just can't remember enough of my childhood to know what I was like. Was I grown up?
Maybe it was different because I've never longed for my therapist to be a mommy. What I want right now is for both of us to be kids together. I want to tease him and beat him in a race and look for salamanders with him. I want to wrestle him and see who can throw farther (I bet I can) and get sunburned together because we refuse to go inside and be grownups. Then I want to lie in the grass at night and watch the stars come out and tell each other secrets.
I guess I just was/am lonely.
Posted by partlycloudy on July 28, 2005, at 9:30:15
In reply to Wanting a mommy (long) trigger, posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 1:15:07
((((Daisy)))
I don't know what to say, except that there are so many of us here who had to grow up without nuturing mothers (that is awful!); and I understand how you feel.
I don't know when I'll be over wanting to be mothered, either.
partlycloudy
Posted by muffled on July 28, 2005, at 9:48:31
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » Dinah, posted by annierose on July 28, 2005, at 9:00:55
> I do think it's interesting too, that the need to be nurtured is a common thread for a lot of us. Is that why we analyze the theraputic relationship so much? Is that what draws us to seek out support like babble? That our relationship to our T is so important?
>
> My 11 year old daughter and I went for a walk last evening. And she commented, "I think it's funny that you don't like it when xxx goes on vacation. I like it when my T goes away, I do the happy dance." And without hesitation, I replied, "When I go away on business, even for a few days, don't you get sad?" "Well, of course," she said. "That is how it feels for mom. I feel that close to xxx. My mommy and daddy didn't make time for me." She took it all in and said, "I'm sorry mom. I'm here for you." It was a very nice moment. And I never thought of that perspective before, when I go away, this is how my children must feel.Wow, that last line is a zinger for me.WHOAH!!!!!!!!! I'd never thought of that before!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by muffled on July 28, 2005, at 9:53:35
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » annierose, posted by Dinah on July 28, 2005, at 8:01:58
> I too was a parentified child. I did all the cooking and cleaning, starting shortly after my brother came. Early teens? Tweens? Plus mowed our yard and attached lot. Plus brokered agreements between my parents. And of course, I never was all that young even before then. Surrogate spouse for my mother and all that.
>
> I wonder that since being an awfully young grownup is a common thread among us, if it accounts for the need to be nurtured now.
>
> At any rate, I like that my therapist says it's ok. And that I never have to grow up if I don't want to.yeah, FYI, I was youngest of 4 kids with a majorly stressed out Mom. I had to take care of myself from a young age. I perceived of myself as atking care of the safety of my family as well. Its an interesting thought. I will have to make sure I don't do it to my kids somehow. Thanks to all. You guys are awfully clever. I told my T. that the internet was useful for me, but she said be careful. You guys seem good. why would she say be careful?
Posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 10:29:39
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger, posted by muffled on July 28, 2005, at 9:53:35
Probably for two reasons -- you can get triggered pretty badly by some of what we write here. It is deep painful stuff and some of it is very sad. It might create some angst about how you are doing your therapy too -- such and so does this or that, why don't we do that?
But I also think there is a lot of misinformation about "us" out here on the web. People believe in all kinds of treatments and many believe that they have the absolute solution to the problem, so you get mixed up and upset about what you can't or don't or won't do. I do this a lot with csa sites because they are always talking about therapist burn out and how hard it is to work with people like me.
GG posted that her therapist was worried about her diluting her feelings. I guess that can happen too.I think the support trade off is worth the risk.
Posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 10:38:46
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » daisym, posted by Shortelise on July 28, 2005, at 2:09:10
Thanks for believing that someday I'll be ready to be grown up again. I think that is what is most distressnig about all of this. I've fragmented completely...so I have no solid concept of core self anymore. And this is terribly frightening, to not know who you really are. How do you take care of yourself if you don't recognize yourself?
And...there are all these other inner little people who popped out and have huge needs that I just can't attend to. It is all way to much.
All this said as I put on my heels and pearls and go off to work. *sigh*
Posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 10:41:39
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 28, 2005, at 6:28:00
Maybe it isn't about growing up, maybe it is about the ability to self-soothe and the tantrum is I don't want to soothe myself right now -- I want YOU to do it!!
Or something like that...
I've been thinking about mid-life, existential crisis theory and why it looks like such irresponsible behavior taking over. I think it is regression and an attempt to find new ways to self-soothe. To be a different kind of grown up.
Posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 10:48:34
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » daisym, posted by annierose on July 28, 2005, at 7:26:19
No worries about writing about yourself. This helps a lot, I want to hear about other people's experience and how they are effected. It makes all this not so lonely.
I'm glad you said you think my relationship with my therapist is strong -- I'm so worried about that right now. But he seems to expect all this right now...
It sounds like you are raising a very empathetic child and you've done things different than your mom did. I think I have too, not that my kids don't make jokes about how much I work. But they show up at the office all the time and have always been completely welcome there. A bonus for working with kids, all staff kids are allowed too. But I this makes me think that my oldest two going away to college creates deep sadness and questions about who I am when I'm no longer an everyday mom...4 more years and the last one goes too. Hopefully by then I'll be ready.
Any bets I'll still be therapy?
Posted by Dinah on July 28, 2005, at 10:48:39
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » Dinah, posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 10:41:39
Well, you can if you like. But I'm not growing up. Nope. Nuh uh.
I just don't see the payoff for what you give up.
Posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 10:54:39
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » daisym, posted by alexandra_k on July 28, 2005, at 4:13:11
What you said makes perfect sense. But what if I *am* going in the wrong direction here? I feel horribly selfish about wanting this and worse because I'm so destroyed not believing I'll have it.
Inside my head I wonder if I'd found and married my soul-mate, would I feel this way right now? I married a guy who needed me a thousand times more than I needed him and then I had kids who needed me and then I created a whole career around kids and families who need help...intellectually I can see all out put, no in put leaves a dry well.
But can anyone, ever, do for you what your mother didn't? Isn't it unconditional love I'm talking about? And this isn't possible in the adult world, with perhaps the exception being your kids. And it just isn't right to let them meet your needs, that is what happened to me essentially, right?
This is so hard.
Posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 10:56:34
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger, posted by cricket on July 28, 2005, at 9:18:38
I hope you take in this post and give it to him. It is such a great description of what you want.
I hear you about the lonely part. I *like* being alone but I think I've forgotten how to have fun. It would be nice to just play again. :)
Posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 11:00:10
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » daisym, posted by partlycloudy on July 28, 2005, at 9:30:15
Maybe we don't ever get over it. But I think I have to learn how to live with the hurt. It feels like my chest is going to explode sometimes.
I wish taking care of others could provide the nurturing I'm looking for. But not this time...it isn't working this time.
I'm sorry you are hurting too.
Posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 11:08:05
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » daisym, posted by Dinah on July 28, 2005, at 10:48:39
Don't you want to believe that you can have the freedom of choosing what you will and won't do, to be yourself completely and still get nurtured from a partner in a grown-up way?
I'm struggling with this, I'm not sure I believe it either. It might go back to what I wrote a month ago, about my little girl feelings being more acceptable to my therapist than my adult ones. I believe children should be taken care of, nurtured, loved and kept safe.
Or maybe, it is about being loveable at all. Maybe I think noone can/will take care of me because I'm not worth loving. *I* don't matter, I never really did. The things I can do and did do matter. Not me. And that is a very, very painful concept when you include your mother in this group. And your husband.
Posted by muffled on July 28, 2005, at 11:14:12
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » Dinah, posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 10:41:39
> Maybe it isn't about growing up, maybe it is about the ability to self-soothe and the tantrum is I don't want to soothe myself right now -- I want YOU to do it!!
>
> Or something like that...
>
>
> I've been thinking about mid-life, existential crisis theory and why it looks like such irresponsible behavior taking over. I think it is regression and an attempt to find new ways to self-soothe. To be a different kind of grown up.Now how can this stuff be bad. Its so nice to know I'm not the only nut on the tree. Thanks for your reply.
Posted by Dinah on July 28, 2005, at 11:26:49
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » Dinah, posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 11:08:05
> Don't you want to believe that you can have the freedom of choosing what you will and won't do, to be yourself completely and still get nurtured from a partner in a grown-up way?
But if I have the freedom of choosing, and being myself completely, then I've done just that. (Beam)
No, I don't want to be nurtured in a grown-up way. Ick.
>
> I'm struggling with this, I'm not sure I believe it either. It might go back to what I wrote a month ago, about my little girl feelings being more acceptable to my therapist than my adult ones. I believe children should be taken care of, nurtured, loved and kept safe.
>
> Or maybe, it is about being loveable at all. Maybe I think noone can/will take care of me because I'm not worth loving. *I* don't matter, I never really did. The things I can do and did do matter. Not me. And that is a very, very painful concept when you include your mother in this group. And your husband.Depends on the mother and the husband. You are worth loving, Daisy. We love you. Your mother you had no choice about. I sometimes want to kick myself about my husband, but... He has many fine and useful qualities. He takes good care of us. I'm lucky to have him.
Posted by happyflower on July 28, 2005, at 12:09:32
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger, posted by Dinah on July 28, 2005, at 11:26:49
((((Daisy)))
You know I think it doesn't matter if you are 3 or 80 years old, everyone wants a "mommy" to take care of us. I never had one either, and it hurts really bad, always had, and probably always will. I don't think it has much to do with growing up. My stepkids are in their 20's and they still need a "mommy" and a "daddy". I still buy them a stuffed animal at X-mas, and they love it, even if they think they are too grown up for it.I am so glad you have a very caring T, please hold on to him as long as you can. Hang on to anything you can, keep safe.
I think it is progress that you admitting that you have this need to be fufilled. Knowing WHAT you need is good. You are a sweet person, and I am sure there will be somebody that will want to take care of you. Just please hang in there, that person will come to you. Please keep posting, I know it isn't the same as your T , but I will try to support you as much as I can.
Take care,
flower
Posted by annierose on July 28, 2005, at 14:20:09
In reply to Re: Wanting a mommy (long) trigger » annierose, posted by daisym on July 28, 2005, at 10:48:34
Wouldn't that be a good thing? (to be still in therapy).
I'm like Dinah, I can't imagine not having her support and comfort around me. Maybe I will one day. But I'm glad I don't have to make that choice right now. I already asked if she plans to retire anytime soon.
I think you can still be finished with working on your major life issues but still check in with just stuff ... life ... I don't know .... I'm not there yet.
At least you still have one child at home. I always thought I would regret only have two children ... I'm getting sad just thinking about that. It must change the dynamics at home ... all the relationships change.
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