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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by pinkeye on July 12, 2005, at 13:33:23
In reply to Re: I'm sick » Jazzed, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2005, at 12:27:01
I think you are not perverse. We all have different kinds of responses to being attached and being cared for ... it triggers many different types of feelings in each of us - sometimes in triggers anger, hurt, pain, jealousy, anticipation of losing it, possessiveness, etc etc..
There really is no right way to feel about soem things.. it is moulded into your soul from the day you are born, by varied kind of experiences.. it is incredibly hard to change that into feeling the right thing. You are definitely not perverse..
What I do when I am afraid of trusting is, nowadays, I try to only trust God.. and let myself depend on men and others as necessary without really forming intense attachment to them.. I allow myself to get attached, but only to a certain extent.. I always know there is a possibility that they will fail, but my full dependance is only on God, so I will not be hurt so very much even if they do.
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2005, at 15:38:25
In reply to Re: I'm sick ((((((HUGS)))))) (nm) » Dinah, posted by Jazzed on July 12, 2005, at 12:55:59
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2005, at 15:40:41
In reply to Re: I'm sick » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on July 12, 2005, at 13:33:23
I wish I could feel the same sort of attachment to God. I'm very good at certain aspects of faith, feeling awe and wonder, but I can't seem to attach to God as I do to people or animals. I don't get the level of comfort. I can get a lifting of the spirits, but not comfort.
Everyone has their own styles of relating to God, just as with other people, I expect.
Posted by LittleGirlLost on July 12, 2005, at 15:45:05
In reply to I'm sick, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2005, at 5:00:42
> Instead of viewing all I have with gratitude and joy, I tend to view it as having more to lose.
>
> I'm afraid to do anything for fear that it will cause me to lose what I have.
>
> I think I feel the same way about therapy. I like connection, but it scares me. Because having something means having something to lose.
((((Dinah)))) I feel the same way. In fact, I often think of this in terms of my therapist, especially last week when she was on vacation. It's sad. I'd rather have nothing, this way I don't have to worry about losing it.Years ago, someone told me the old saying, "It's better to have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all." I try to tell myself that, but I'm not so sure I buy it.
Posted by Dinah on July 12, 2005, at 16:04:43
In reply to Re: I'm sick, posted by LittleGirlLost on July 12, 2005, at 15:45:05
It's the fear of losing that really gets me. I've been thinking a lot about Bunty lately, because I found the poem I wrote when she died. And I was remembering how I imagined every possible thing that could happen to her, and how I would prevent it. Yet in the end, I accidentally knocked her off the bed with my knee and she fell in such a way that she died. I hadn't anticipated that one.
Having things means having something to lose.
I'm not sure I don't want to have them, but I'd sure like to be less afraid of loss, or abandonment.
Posted by pinkeye on July 12, 2005, at 16:06:33
In reply to Re: I'm sick » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2005, at 15:40:41
> I wish I could feel the same sort of attachment to God. I'm very good at certain aspects of faith, feeling awe and wonder, but I can't seem to attach to God as I do to people or animals. I don't get the level of comfort. I can get a lifting of the spirits, but not comfort.
It doesn't come naturally.. It has to be cultivated. I was an atheist up until a few years ago, and thought nothing of believing in God. Then I had to try really hard to change it, and I think I am much more peaceful today than I was a few years back.
Posted by Tamar on July 12, 2005, at 17:40:12
In reply to Re: I'm sick » LittleGirlLost, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2005, at 16:04:43
> It's the fear of losing that really gets me. I've been thinking a lot about Bunty lately, because I found the poem I wrote when she died. And I was remembering how I imagined every possible thing that could happen to her, and how I would prevent it. Yet in the end, I accidentally knocked her off the bed with my knee and she fell in such a way that she died. I hadn't anticipated that one.
Dinah, I'm so, so sorry. How awful for you. If only we could anticipate life's horrors and keep those we love safe. There's such a huge insecurity in trying to make sure everything will be all right and yet knowing that some disasters will happen that we can't predict. How long ago did she die?
> Having things means having something to lose.
Yes. And the fear of loss can sometimes mar the joy of having.
> I'm not sure I don't want to have them, but I'd sure like to be less afraid of loss, or abandonment.Dare I ask... Do you feel responsible for what happened to Bunty? It seems to me that this is so much more complex than simply loss, especially as you indicated that you took great care to protect her and then her accidental death came about like some kind of tragic irony. How much of the responsibility for her death can you attribute to circumstance? Are you blaming yourself? I hope not. But I know people do sometimes blame themselves for things that weren’t their fault.
Posted by Jen Star on July 12, 2005, at 19:18:39
In reply to I'm sick, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2005, at 5:00:42
hi Dinah,
I'm sorry and I understand it, because I often feel the same way. I'm afraid to enjoy my accomplishments because maybe they will get taken away. I'm afraid to exult in my youth and beauty (such as it is, hahaha) because I will get old and wrinkled. I'm afraid to embrace my husband with zeal because he might get hit by a bus tomorrow. I'm afraid...of so many things. I'm afriad of loss, too. And I don't know how to deal with it, either!So I do the best I can -- I do embrace my husband, I do try to enjoy life. Even though there is always the niggling idea in the back of my mind, like a little tiny devil, reminding me with glee that this will all soon disappear. I'm usually proud of myself if I'm able to enjoy stuff despite my fears!
I hope you can too.
You're not alone...I don't know if it helps any, but I sympathize.JenStar
Posted by 64bowtie on July 13, 2005, at 3:15:38
In reply to I'm sick, posted by Dinah on July 12, 2005, at 5:00:42
> I'm afraid to do anything for fear that it will cause me to lose what I have.
><<< I evoked a response from you by my pointing out how children fear change because to them, they can only see how "change means loss"... By employing your mind's eye for positive results that really "are", instead of highlighting negatives that might be but never quite come true the way your fantacies imply... You can then lead your way out from the discomfort of fears of the uncertain and fears of the unknown... A supervisor is only successful when they have 3 traits, responsibility, accountability, and leadership... Practicing your leadership skills is hard to do when you are also practicing oblgation and expectation habits... You might recognize this if yesterday always seem to be as troubling as tomorrow looks like it might be... I do hear your leadership skills... Study your day to day leadership and practice employing those skills to lead yourself out of your troubling thoughts...
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on July 13, 2005, at 3:18:47
In reply to » Dinah » We started this discussion awhile back » Dinah, posted by 64bowtie on July 13, 2005, at 3:15:38
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2005, at 11:38:16
In reply to Re: I'm sick » Dinah, posted by Tamar on July 12, 2005, at 17:40:12
Believe it or not, it's been eighteen years later this month since she died. She's been dead three times longer than she was alive. It seems so hard to believe.
I do blame myself. Since she died, I've been sooo careful, and my dogs almost never fall off my bed. Before she died, it wasn't all that uncommon. In fact, one of my large dogs used to be very jealous of her and "accidentally" flick her off the bed with her paw. My bed wasn't particularly high, and I never worried about it.
I am so grateful in the end that it wasn't that dog or another person who caused her death. I would never ever have forgiven them, no matter how accidental it was. I guess that means I have never forgiven myself either. But that's better somehow.
I tend to blame myself when all my dogs die. I'm staying up nights with the dog who is dying right now, and I've spent well over a thousand dollars that I don't have at the vets just on her in the last month. But I know that if I had been better about giving her her medication before she got to this stage, she might well have lived longer. I've got a lousy memory, and don't even remember my own meds. :( NOW, it's easy to remember because as it gets close to medication time she gets worse, and I wait with bated breath till it's time to give her her medication again. They are going to check the blood level of it to make sure it's in the therapeutic range, but there's not a whole lot more we can do for her other than make her comfortable.
Maybe that's another reason I'm dwelling on Bunty right now. The anniversary, the poem, Harry's daughter dying. Her breathing reminds me so much of my daddy's in the last few days. Usually a whole day or two at a time can go by without my thinking of Bunty. Well, maybe not a whole day. But hours.
Ick, I'm a mess. Between the poor sleep as I wake up so often to make sure she's still breathing, and PMS (which doesn't ordinarily bother me) I've been having horrible migraines that are actually making me feel sick (which they normally don't). It's no wonder I'm feeling maudlin.
I'll be better in a bit, I'm sure.
Posted by annierose on July 13, 2005, at 20:57:00
In reply to Re: I'm sick » Tamar, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2005, at 11:38:16
Dinah -
I'm sorry I didn't read this thread earlier when I posted to you. Sorry you are having such a sad day ... too many things all at once ... it's overwhelming.
Dogs are members of our families, they mean so much. They are always happy to see us, love us unconditionally, snuggle when we're sad. To take care of your dog and then a migraine + PMS ... it's just too much.
Thinking of you and hoping tomorrow is a better day.
Annierose
Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 7:53:51
In reply to Re: I'm sick » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on July 12, 2005, at 16:06:33
I was an agnostic for many years after college, never an atheist. But my faith in God is strong now. Being able to feel about him (in some ways) as I feel about people in my life has always eluded me.
Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 7:56:12
In reply to Re: I'm sick » Dinah, posted by Jen Star on July 12, 2005, at 19:18:39
It's good to know that I'm not alone in that.
I've been having lots of dreams about losing things due to my negligence lately. Sometimes I'm not sure I'm glad I got my dreams back.
Or maybe they're trying to tell me to stop being so darn dimwitted! :)
Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 8:00:56
In reply to » Dinah » We started this discussion awhile back » Dinah, posted by 64bowtie on July 13, 2005, at 3:15:38
IMNSHO, change always does mean loss, Rod. You can't gain a thing in life without letting go of something else. You can't take a step up a ladder without letting go of the step you're on. People change because they think what they are gaining is worth more than what they're giving up.
I rarely come to that conclusion. :)
I used to be all those things. Responsible, accountable. Well, two of those things. I was never a leader and had no desire to be. Someone needs to be a worker bee.
Then I lost it. That's another change I didn't like.
It's good to see you back, Rod. What have you been up to?
Posted by Tamar on July 14, 2005, at 16:49:51
In reply to Re: I'm sick » Tamar, posted by Dinah on July 13, 2005, at 11:38:16
> Believe it or not, it's been eighteen years later this month since she died. She's been dead three times longer than she was alive. It seems so hard to believe.
>
> I do blame myself. Since she died, I've been sooo careful, and my dogs almost never fall off my bed. Before she died, it wasn't all that uncommon. In fact, one of my large dogs used to be very jealous of her and "accidentally" flick her off the bed with her paw. My bed wasn't particularly high, and I never worried about it.Eighteen years is a very long time to carry the guilt and self blame for the death of a loved one. Maybe this is a silly question, but have you talked much to your therapist about blaming yourself for Bunty’s death? The extent of your fear of abandonment makes so much sense knowing how you feel about Bunty’s death. It dovetails with never knowing when your mother was going to pick you up from kindergarten and with what you were saying about the fates recently.
> I am so grateful in the end that it wasn't that dog or another person who caused her death. I would never ever have forgiven them, no matter how accidental it was. I guess that means I have never forgiven myself either. But that's better somehow.
Yes, that makes sense. I can imagine it would be impossible to forgive someone else. And yet it seems almost impossible to forgive yourself too.
> I tend to blame myself when all my dogs die. I'm staying up nights with the dog who is dying right now, and I've spent well over a thousand dollars that I don't have at the vets just on her in the last month. But I know that if I had been better about giving her her medication before she got to this stage, she might well have lived longer. I've got a lousy memory, and don't even remember my own meds. :( NOW, it's easy to remember because as it gets close to medication time she gets worse, and I wait with bated breath till it's time to give her her medication again. They are going to check the blood level of it to make sure it's in the therapeutic range, but there's not a whole lot more we can do for her other than make her comfortable.
Poor doggy. And I know how hard it is to remember other people’s medication. I often forget my kids’ medication when they’re ill.
> Maybe that's another reason I'm dwelling on Bunty right now. The anniversary, the poem, Harry's daughter dying. Her breathing reminds me so much of my daddy's in the last few days. Usually a whole day or two at a time can go by without my thinking of Bunty. Well, maybe not a whole day. But hours.
Yes, I can see why Bunty would be so much in your mind at the moment.
> Ick, I'm a mess. Between the poor sleep as I wake up so often to make sure she's still breathing, and PMS (which doesn't ordinarily bother me) I've been having horrible migraines that are actually making me feel sick (which they normally don't). It's no wonder I'm feeling maudlin.
(((((Dinah)))))
> I'll be better in a bit, I'm sure.
I hope so. I’ll be thinking of you.
Tamar
Posted by 64bowtie on July 14, 2005, at 18:28:18
In reply to Re: » 64bowtie, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 8:00:56
(((Dinah))),
Last things first...
> It's good to see you back, Rod. What have you been up to?
>
<<< It would sound so prosaic for me to say, "I been busy" but I have... I have mountains of notes to pour through to tell the story of why some folks may get well with coaching and practice...
>
> People change because they think what they are gaining is worth more than what they're giving up.
>
<<< I don't pretend to study motives to the degree that I can assign purpose to another person's reason for change... I do notice over and over again that those who detect changes in their lives, later discover how much they had gained and how little it seemed they had really lost... This was surprising to them since they had long procrastinated for fear of losing so much by the changes... Their witness had always been (from their childhood) that change meant loss... Now they had reason to rewrite their childhood rules... I always suggest they discard the notion of rules and replace it with notion of "options", since they are after all now adults that can process "options" accurately...But that's just me....
Rod
Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 20:36:52
In reply to Re: I'm sick » Dinah, posted by annierose on July 13, 2005, at 20:57:00
Thanks Annierose.
Lolli died in my arms this evening.
It's really odd that at fourteen she didn't look a day over six or seven. She looked like a dog in her prime. She had her mother's beautiful bone structure. I sat with her for a while and just marvelled at how beautiful she was. How lustrous and silky her coat was.
It doesn't seem possible.
Posted by Tamar on July 14, 2005, at 20:56:30
In reply to Re: I'm sick » annierose, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 20:36:52
> Lolli died in my arms this evening.((((((((((Dinah))))))))))
> It's really odd that at fourteen she didn't look a day over six or seven. She looked like a dog in her prime. She had her mother's beautiful bone structure. I sat with her for a while and just marvelled at how beautiful she was. How lustrous and silky her coat was.
>
> It doesn't seem possible.It's hard when the time comes, even when you know it's coming.
I'll be thinking of you.
Tamar
Posted by fallsfall on July 14, 2005, at 22:08:34
In reply to Re: I'm sick » annierose, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 20:36:52
Dinah,
I'm so sorry for your loss. I know how special your dogs are to you.
Falls.
Posted by daisym on July 14, 2005, at 23:07:15
In reply to I'm so sorry » Dinah, posted by Tamar on July 14, 2005, at 20:56:30
(((Dinah)))
I'm glad you were with her. I know how hard this has been for you. Please take care of yourself, you've had a lot of loss this year. I'll say a prayer for you both tonight.
Daisy
Posted by All Done on July 15, 2005, at 0:36:10
In reply to Re: I'm sick » annierose, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 20:36:52
> Thanks Annierose.
>
> Lolli died in my arms this evening.
>
> It's really odd that at fourteen she didn't look a day over six or seven. She looked like a dog in her prime. She had her mother's beautiful bone structure. I sat with her for a while and just marvelled at how beautiful she was. How lustrous and silky her coat was.
>
> It doesn't seem possible.(((((Dinah))))),
I'm so sorry. It's so hard to lose a pet you love so much.
Give your other dogs lots of extra hugs.
And don't forget to take extra gentle care of yourself.
Laurie
Posted by 10derHeart on July 15, 2005, at 1:59:59
In reply to I'm so sorry » Dinah, posted by Tamar on July 14, 2005, at 20:56:30
I'm so sad for you, Dinah.
None of your wonderful dogs you've posted about here could ever, ever, possibly have been loved and cherished more deeply by anyone than they were/are by you.
That matters. It really matters.
I'm sorry it has to hurt so much :-(
(((Dinah)))
Posted by gardenergirl on July 15, 2005, at 7:47:41
In reply to Re: I'm sick » annierose, posted by Dinah on July 14, 2005, at 20:36:52
Oh dear, I'm so sorry.
You've had so much loss, Dinah. Please take extra gentle care (I know you know that.) :)
Sending you hugs and warm caring...
gg
Posted by Dinah on July 15, 2005, at 8:17:26
In reply to (((((((Dinah)))))))) » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on July 15, 2005, at 7:47:41
Loss is inevitable when you have a house of dogs twelve and up. They're mostly gone now, only two left.
I never get used to it, though.
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