![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 0:52:12
emailed p-doc
asked him where i was at on the wait list re seeing a p-doc
he told me to wait till they contacted me
i said i was concerned about that strategy as people have a tendancy to remove me from the wait list without telling me they have done that
i asked if i should phone and ask
he said it 'hasn't been fully processed yet'
in other words HE HASN'T EVEN PUT ME ON THE BLOODY THING
deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep breaths
no point throwing a wobbly
(just yet)
grr
Posted by Damos on June 28, 2005, at 1:39:49
In reply to grr, posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 0:52:12
What is this guys problem? It's like he's elected himself to be your own personal nemesis. Go into your room ball up some pillows and beat the sweet bejeezus outta them. I honestly can't believe that he continues to pull this sh*t. I'm not a violent person by nature but I'd be more than willing to make an exceptional exception in his case. Just hasn't gotta clue has he.
I'm reaching out right now to hold your hands so you just squeeze as hard as you like and let all the anger, hurt and dissappointment flow across into me okay. Sending you lot of good thoughts Alex, lots and lot and lots.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 5:07:04
In reply to grr, posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 0:52:12
Mmm.
Now my head is going round and round the same old circles.
I just sent him a couple of emails.
I'm not mad.
Really.
Just hurt and confused.
But no good will come of it.
What part of 'I don't want to work with you' don't I understand?I just feel...
I just feel like they expect me to curl up and die.
Or to just vanish of the face of the earth.
Don't get me wrong - I don't think it is that they are malevolent.
I'm sure they would be pleased if I just magically got all better.
But they know I'm not going to just magically get all better.
But they just don't want to hear from me.
And round and round I go and this is not doing me any good...I'm supposed to be focusing on what I'm doing.
What I'm doing.
Not on the outcomes (which are bound to lead to my feeling frustrated)
But I sent the emails.
What good could come of them?
Maybe he will see me again...
:-(
I guess I'm just hurting myself.
But do I regret them?
No.
Not yet.
Maybe tomorrow.
Maybe I will regret them tomorrow.
I don't know.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 5:13:15
In reply to More Like GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on June 28, 2005, at 1:39:49
I'm not mad. Really. I think I was there for an instant. But not now. He is busy. I get that. I do. Generally... I can be patient. It is just that I have learned from experience that they are typically so busy that they don't notice my being patient. They just forget all about me.
And I can understand that. I mean some people need to be checked up on. Because if they aren't looked after then they are a serious danger to other people. You need to worry about them. Chase up people on treatment orders. Whereas with me... With me... The only person I'm in danger of hurting is myself. And I have a tendancy to do that with or without a clinician. And no pattern is apparant from my file. Though I could probably tell them... I could... But it doesn't matter because heads don't roll unless someone hurts someone else and then they should have done something.
I'm sorry.
How to get out of this head space...
I really didn't think this was a good idea...
But I've started it now
:-(
I think I'm going to take tomorrow off.
Lie in bed and cry all day.
And the best thing about those kind of decisions is that once you really have decided and you are able to do it - the feeling passes.I wish I hadn't gone back here.
And t can't see me for 2 weeks cause she is inundated with people wanting compassionate consideration for their exams / courses.I'll be ok.
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2005, at 6:43:49
In reply to grr, posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 0:52:12
Arghhh.
I'm so sorry you're stuck in this situation.
It's really outrageous.
Posted by Jazzed on June 28, 2005, at 7:06:20
In reply to grr, posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 0:52:12
I agree with Dinah, this is outrageous. Is this in the US, Canada, or GB? Sounds terrible to have to wait like this. I'd call and call, and call until they get you in to see someone. Is there only one clinic where you can go?
Jazzy
Posted by Damos on June 28, 2005, at 7:21:57
In reply to Re: More Like GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 5:13:15
Glad you're not mad anymore. He's not worth it and either is the system. And it's sad but true that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. But that don't make it okay, or easier for you to bear.
So you think I should do the coffee thing with my voucher huh. I actually saw a coffee school on tv the other weekend and thought it might be fun to do. Can you believe I've had the damn voucher since November and haven't been able to make myelf use it. Actually tried to give it to someone else originally. [Insert image of lightbulb above Damos head] If you do come to Oz we could go do it together it'd be heaps better doing it with a friend.
Well you know where I'll be all night and I've still got plenty of credit so don't hesitate okay.
Love ya kiddo.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 17:50:56
In reply to Re: More Like GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on June 28, 2005, at 7:21:57
I'm in NZ. Its not usually this bad. I'd probably be okay if I was in a different region (one with a bigger city).
He replied. 'I choose not to enter into this discussion. Please foward any inquiries to xxx or xxx. Goodbye'.
:-(
Posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 18:09:04
In reply to Re: grr, posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 17:50:56
Ok. So the first email went...
'>The referral has not been all processed yet.
Sorry, but what does that mean?
>It will be best to await a response.
I'm really not sure that that would be best. As I said, I have had the experience of being taken off the wait list and not being informed of that. In my experience it is best to chase things up at fairly much every available opportunity because if I do not then nothing gets done. For all I know someone could have sent a letter to an old address and then written me off when I failed to show...
>I will speak to the team leader.
Yes, please. I really do not understand what the hold up is.
Are you able to pass xxx email address on to me? It would be convenient for me to discuss things with her via email rather than phoning to try and arrange a time. I would like her to inform me of my available treatment options - given that I have a right to treatment and all...
I have to say... And I know this will upset / annoy you but I have to say... That I am really very disappointed the way things turned out between us. My untimely termination etc etc. I hate to get into 'but you said... but you said' and so I have refrained from doing that but... But you said you would work with me if things didn't turn out with external funding. You have said before that you fairly much can do what you like (I understand within limits) but I also understand that you aren't taking up your new post till August and that you bloody well could continue to see me even after that if you chose. You dumped me at the worst possible time. And you know that. You do.
But it isn't about me anymore...
And it never really was. Don't get me wrong, you did a lot for me. A lot more than most with the assessment. But now... Well, all that really buys me is a sh*t of a pre-existing condition. And now... With respect to treatment I really can't decide if I am in fairly much the same place I have been for a while, or whether I am actually in a worse place now. I really can't.
I also want to say... That your comment about my not working in therapy (that you made when I was in hospital) really was most unfair. And to say 'I'm sorry that you feel that way' really doesn't cut it much because it shows absolutely no understanding or comprehension of what it was that I considered unfair. Basically... I did try really hard to work with you. I turned up. I did my best to answer your questions to the best of my ability. I really tried the best way I knew how. Which is more than I observed with you for a long time, I have to say. And then... And then for you to say that I didn't even try to work so I would be fine working with a councellor who doesn't have a clue about mental illness and who is used to seeing people for a max of three sessions... Well that got to me. And to say that you based that comment off my file history doesn't really help your case much either, because you also try and tell me that you don't judge me on my history that you take me as you find me in my interaction with you. But that is crap, isn't it. Crap. And yeah, I'm mad, and hurting, and confused. And sometimes I wonder if my biggest mistake... If my biggest mistake was to call you on all that sh*t about not turning up and leaving your phone on etc. And to have said that I'd prefer to work with someone else. If you took that personally. Because I took your behaviour to be giving me a really strong message 'I do NOT want to work with you'. Because all the problems I had with you leaving your phone on etc. Well, all those problems were textbook stuff really. Text book stuff on how to show a client that you respect them. And you know that. And I know you know that. So your not making an effort to do that (untill I called you on it a couple of times) gave me a really strong message that you did not respect me and you did not want to work with me. And I figured that wasn't something that was likely to change... So I would be better off trying to work with someone else. But I can't help feeling
like my making that decision... Was what resulted in me ending up with nothing.I should be... I really should be leaving the country in January. Or next August at the latest. If the absolute worst comes to worst I'll be moving out of this district by the end of next year anyway. So you see the appeal really is of no use to me. And I don't believe that it will work in other peoples favour by setting relevant precedent. I don't believe that because I don't believe precedent becomes relevant until an inquirey is launched anyway. It doesn't help me.
And I don't know what to do.
And you just suggest that I wait...
But then... People will forget about me. Like they already did over this past month or so.
Other peoples lives carry on.
And it is so very easy for them to just forget about me'.
And he responded:
I choose not to get into this discourse.
I will get Eileens secretary to e-mail you as I am not sure if I am allowed to provide you with her e-mail address.
Goodbye
And the second one I sent...'And it is hard. It is hard because I really do believe that you are kind hearted and well intentioned. And that you really did try to help me. But I guess the general issue is that most people do believe that I should get help. So long as they don't have to be the one to help me. Or the one to pay for it.
I just go round and round in my head trying to figure if things could have turned out differently. If I hadn't said anything about the things I was finding hard with working with you. If I had have said that I didn't want to work with someone else, if I had have said that I wanted to work with you.
I don't know.
You said you were trying to keep things light. That you didn't want to get into anything too deep with me when I was going to be working with someone else. I tried to respect that and then you threw it in my face that seeing as I didn't talk about anything significant anyway I may as well see a councellor.
I don't understand.
I'm sick enough to need to see a specialist.
To be referred to someone with experience in treating this sort of thing.
But then all of a sudden I'm supposed to be well enough to be able to get by with a councellor.
I don't understand.And the day you terminated me out of the blue like that...
The same day you were really happy with news of your promotion
I was going to tell you that I didn't get into the US. That was a big deal for me.
But I was left feeling like I was ungrateful for not being happy for you.
For your news.
It was about you.
And you just wanted me to get the hell away from you
Without creating a scene.
Bring in the witnesses
(please don't make a scene)
It didn't matter how I was
How I felt
When I left.
It never does.I'm just supposed to curl up in a hole somewhere
or something
Untill someone feels like bringing me out for an hour.
I started seeing the councellor from uni
When you left for a month.
Without getting anyone else to help me then.
(Just curl up somewhere and don't create a scene)
Nobody would see me.
I get that that is the problem.
But I don't understand just what it is about me that is so very repulsive to others.
Well. Sometimes I do think I see that.I don't understand what I am supposed to do'.
And he said:
Please direct your concerns to xxx or xxx.
:-(
I messed up - didn't I.
Backed him into a corner.
How did I expect him to respond to that?
Crap.
Posted by Damos on June 28, 2005, at 18:58:08
In reply to Re: grr, posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 18:09:04
No, you didn't mess up at all. Your were honest and just plain stood up for yourself. I'm very proud of you.
You didn't rant and rave, though you're more than a little entitled to. You stated the truth of your situation, cause and effect clearly and articulately and with great composure, whn I know for sure that's not how you're feeling. That he chose not to even acknowledge the integrity of your position, your feelings of hurt and being lost is not a reflection on you. Your words broke my heart and made me want to reach out to you in evry possible way. If they didn't effect him so, again the fault lies with him not you.
You could have said a lot worse in your emails and chose not to. That says a lot about you Alex, a lot of good things. You look at the way he responds to you compared with how say 10der's T responds to her emails etc. Your p-doc just doesn't get it and that's not your fault.
Please be okay Alex, because being your friend means the world to me and makes me want to be better than I know how to be.
((((((((((Alex))))))))))
Posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 19:06:58
In reply to Re: grr » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on June 28, 2005, at 18:58:08
Thanks Damos. I'll be okay. Really. I will. I'll email t today and see if I can get in to see her this week. She said she didn't have any openings... But we will see...
I just...
What did I expect?
I guess...I don't want to be the victim. But it is so easy for me to play that role and hard for me to see things differently. It would be so very easy for me to put all the blame on him and feel hard done by and abused and angry. But that doesn't really help me. And all I did was push him away completely. I do think of him as a bit of a self-absorbed worm. I guess that came through pretty clearly. But I wish I had taken a bit more time and been a bit more careful. I don't want to see things that way.
I guess... That really he did not want to work with me. But then he saw that nobody else was going to and so he tried to help me the best way he knew how with the assessment and trying to help me get funding. And seeing me. But he didn't really want to. And so I guess that I did see things the way they were there. I don't know. I guess I thought he could offer me another way of seeing it. So I wouldn't see it as a personal rejection. But doing that takes time... Most probably time that he does not have. And what to say... I seem to have a knack for getting him on the defensive. I think he might be worried I'm going to lodge a formal complaint against him. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't.
I don't know what to say.
Posted by fallsfall on June 28, 2005, at 20:12:07
In reply to Re: grr » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 19:06:58
(((Alex)))
You have so much potential. I can't believe that they don't see that.
And it takes incredible strength to keep fighting as you do.
You should be proud of who you are.
Posted by anastasia56 on June 28, 2005, at 20:12:10
In reply to Re: grr » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 19:06:58
in reading what you wrote to him i don't see anything that a qualified professional should take offense to.
obviously you see where i'm headed in regards to him. He doesn't sound up to par in terms of the quality and level you deserve. it would be preferrable if you didn't have to deal with him.
not being a victim and speaking up for yourself is THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Don't back down, don't stop. Stay strong. I qualify this with, as long as you don't endanger your own mental health.
ana
Posted by Damos on June 28, 2005, at 20:24:32
In reply to Re: grr » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 19:06:58
I didn't see victim here. I saw feeling riped-off and fed up. Hmm, self absorbed worm ay, don't hold back now Alex tell us what you realy think ;-). I think you're right though, it does appear that everything he does is from 'his' perspective and what he feels is right for him. And yes, the very least he could do is give you another way to see what has happened. What would that cost him? Nothing.
I have a sneaking suspicion that anyone who deared question or appeared to criticise him would get his back up whether they were right or not, whether there was reason for him to get his back up or not. Some people are just like that. Everything is a personal affront to them. As for his not having time, well he may just be one of these people for who everything is urgent and they lurch from one crisis to the next because they can't focus on what's truly important. Then because because they didn't deal with it when it was important and not urgent it suddenly becomes another crisis to be dealt with. It's all about how you prioritise stuff - like taking calls during sessions.
Alex, I've spent most of my life biting my tongue and holding back on stuff and it hasn't done me the least little bit of good. And I'm not sure what there is to say that will change anything. He seems to have ruled a line under it and moved on. not realising that people like us can't just do that. I don't think he realises that for most of us, we are all we've got.
Well let's hope your 'T' can find a space for you soon. Puppy sends her love.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 20:54:23
In reply to Re: grr » alexandra_k, posted by fallsfall on June 28, 2005, at 20:12:07
> You have so much potential. I can't believe that they don't see that.
Thank you. I think they do. And that is part of what is so hard. Because they are community mental health. Because they deal with the most severe cases. Schizophrenia, bi-polar, depression. The most severe cases. The cases where the proper meds make all the difference in the world.
And then there is me. And in a way... I function too well. That is the problem. I function too well to be considered severe enough.
And so they don't really see it as a matter of being better able to fulfill my potential. To be able to work full time one day. To feel a lot happier. To stop missing time. Because in their opinion I function better than the majority of people in the service anyway. So what have I got to complain about? And what is a measure of good mental health? Success at uni is supposed to rank highly on the list because where did the p-doc's (the people who decided what mental helath was) where did they spend much of their life?
Posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 20:57:42
In reply to Re: grr, posted by anastasia56 on June 28, 2005, at 20:12:10
> in reading what you wrote to him i don't see anything that a qualified professional should take offense to.
Yeah. Part of me knows that. That he isn't a therapist he is a medication prescriber. With respect to therapy I really do think that he is out of his depth.
> obviously you see where i'm headed in regards to him. He doesn't sound up to par in terms of the quality and level you deserve. it would be preferrable if you didn't have to deal with him.
Yes. It would be preferable. But I think I've just burned my last bridge with respect to having someone within the service advocating for me. I mean I had to push him to advocate, that is true. But having a p-doc onside really helps things move in a way that I cannot get them moving by myself. Moving at a snails pace to be sure, but moving all the same. But not anymore :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 21:05:27
In reply to Re: grr » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on June 28, 2005, at 20:24:32
> I didn't see victim here.
Mmm. I think I do. I think... That I can see it wasn't personal. That it isn't that I'm so very repulsive. It is just that people feel out of their depth. And the sad truth is that they are too underfunded to have clinician's volountarily take on harder cases. Just leads to burnout.
I can see that he spent the majority of his time on the wards. And that the time he did spend in the community he was supposed to take the emergency referrals for our sub-region. That that is why he kept his phone and pager. Because crisis assessment would say they were bringing someone in for assessment. Because the hospital would be calling him about how many beds they did not have etc.
Because the majority of crisis assessments really are crisis assessments. People who have been getting progressively paranoid over the last few weeks and then their family is freaking out because they are starting to huddle in the corner with a knife or whatever...
And then there is me.
And he would deal with that stuff before I arrived and after I left. With no time in between. And even once he did take my comments about the phone / pager seriously I noticed that he didn't actually turn them off he gave them to his receptionist. And sometimes she would (looking worried) bang on the door to give him a note.
So... He really was busy.
And I guess it is just a sh*t of a situation all round.
And there it is.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 21:12:16
In reply to Re: grr » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 21:05:27
And his comment that he made about how I didn't work in therapy...
He made that in front of his registrars in hospital.
I guess he was trying to justify the termination.
Trying to justify it in a way that didn't have them freaking out about conditions in the public health sector...
And that was probably why he was so very reluctant to back down when I took offense.
I think...
Talking to you guys has been really helpful to me.
Thanks so much everyone.
It is hard because I worry that other people thinking he is crap is more people responding to my take on the situation rather than the situation as it occurred.
And what I am worried about is my take on the situation.
But I can see where you guys are coming from with respect to responding to what I have to say.
And I guess that that process is helping me redescribe the situation.
In a way that I can better accept.Thanks.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 21:59:28
In reply to Re: grr, posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 21:12:16
And it is hard...
Because outpatient services just never get there...
I get lost on a waiting list.
And when things get to crisis point
Inpatient services never get there either because they are solely focused on the issue of discharge.
So one is screwed either way.
It was a bit different when I was in a relationship. Because then there was someone else that was worried about me.
They would take what my partner had to say seriously.
Now the problem I have with crisis assessment is that I'm the one who has to make the call.
And if I'm well enough to realise that things are not ok. If I'm well enough to make the call then I'm too well for hospital.
And so I am on the borderline and people just try and shunt me off to become someone elses problem. And there really isn't a lot that can be done.Except the formal inquirey.
Which takes up to two years.
And so I really do just need to accept that.
Just accept that.Not devalue my current t.
And we'll just have to do our best.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 29, 2005, at 1:09:24
In reply to Re: grr, posted by alexandra_k on June 28, 2005, at 21:59:28
I’m sorry. Really. I just have a hard time figuring out how to look at things sometimes. I don’t want to be the victim, though. Really. So… Here goes.
I know that you really are very busy with what you do. I see that you are supposed to be available to take crisis referrals with the time that you spend in the community. That that is why you needed your cell / pager. And so that is hard because there is a conflict of interests between giving me therapy and doing the job that you are supposed to be doing. And that giving me therapy is more than the job you are supposed to be doing. And so… It really was very good of you to take me on. And I see that you did that because you did feel bad for me because nobody else would take me on. And that you were honest about that. Painfully so, yes, but then sometimes the truth can hurt and I really would rather you were honest than lying – and so I really should say that I appreciate your being honest about that. Even though it hurt.
And that you really did try to help me the best way you knew how. And that that meant trying to get me into Ashburn, and then getting the funding for the external assessment, and then in trying to get me funding to see someone. And yeah, I had to chase you up sometimes. But then I do understand that you really are very busy. And that all of that stuff was much more than anyone has done for me for a long time.
And I see that I gave you a pretty hard time because of my general frustration. And then we kind of got into this really unhelpful pattern of my attacking and your getting defensive and I’m really sorry about that. And I’m sorry about resorting to the ‘but you said…’ stuff. I knew I shouldn’t have done that – which is why I didn’t do it till this point. But I shouldn’t have done that at this point either.
And anyway… I just wanted to say that I really am genuinely very sorry.
I felt hurt that I knew you didn’t really want to work with me. I took it personally. I really try to not take it personally, but it is hard for me.
I also wanted to say… It has never crossed my mind to complain to anyone else about your treatment of me. Really. Like I said, I do appreciate that you helped me out far more than all the other clinicians who wouldn’t even see me for a single session.
I guess it is hard because for a while I figured that in the worst case scenario where the funding didn’t come through things wouldn’t be so bad because I’d get to work with you. And I figured that we would be able to work things out. But I guess I realised that my working with you was not optimal – mostly because your working with me did seem to conflict with your other work obligations. And that was why I thought it would be better for both of us if I saw someone else. But I was shattered when that changed and you said you weren’t going to see me anymore. Out of the blue like that. And then I got really frightened about the funding decision. And then that turned out to be worst case too…
I’m sorry things ended as they did.
I’m sorry about those emails.
I was frustrated. I didn’t mean to lash out.
I’m trying my best to deal with it.
Its ok. You don’t have to respond.
I won’t email you again.
Posted by Damos on June 29, 2005, at 2:11:44
In reply to Re: ok. I'm done now., posted by alexandra_k on June 29, 2005, at 1:09:24
You're a good person Alexandra_K. It's a nice note and it says a lot that you want so much to put things right.
I'm very lucky to be your friend.
Posted by Jazzed on June 29, 2005, at 6:58:55
In reply to Nice » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on June 29, 2005, at 2:11:44
Im so sorry that things have gone this way for you. It just doesn't seem fair that you are at the mercy of some funding board. I"m also sorry the p-doc was so "honest" with you. I hope your email makes him come around, and that you can get the treatment you need.
Jazzy
Posted by alexandra_k on June 30, 2005, at 0:25:54
In reply to Re: Nice » Damos, posted by Jazzed on June 29, 2005, at 6:58:55
I don't expect I'll hear from him again. I imagine he'll take the opportunity to make a graceful exit.
I think I should leave this alone now (for my health).
Give it a week...
Maybe then I'll be ready to contact those people. I'm feeling a bit too fragile at the moment.
Posted by Damos on June 30, 2005, at 4:41:49
In reply to Re: Nice, posted by alexandra_k on June 30, 2005, at 0:25:54
Time to look after you and build up your reserves before taking on the system again. Try to get whatever rest you can and not think about it for a while.
Puppy and me and are sending lots of good energy and hugs your way.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 30, 2005, at 22:02:28
In reply to Re: Nice, posted by alexandra_k on June 30, 2005, at 0:25:54
He did respond:
>I do wish to reply. I will never know what it is like to be you and have your problems, and hence I can carry much of what you expressed, without getting offended.
>I wish to thank you for giving me some insight about the world of the person with a dissociative disorder. Personally I also felt frustrated by not being able to see a posive outcome of our endeavours to get you into therapy. This frustration has its roots in my sense of fairness and entitlements and the denial of such.
>Despite all that has happened, I leave you with the thought that I believe you have inner strengths that you do not give yourself credit for. I have admired your tenacity in pushing on with making something of your life despite your difficulties.
>Goodbye and good luck.
:-)
That was nice.
I feel a bit better now.
I'll do a bit more on chasing those people up next week.
:-)
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