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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by judy1 on December 19, 2004, at 14:03:46
some of you may remember that my pdoc terminated back in March (and how upset I was) recently I got a little hypomanic and e-mailed him to ask him to lunch. he wrote back and said while he was no longer my dr. it was probably not ethical and made an observation that I was a little 'high'. We back and forth e-mailed and I was escalating and he suggested I take zyprexa. I actually listened to him and honestly felt like he helped prevent a manic episode. I wrote and thanked him and haven't heard from him since.
Sooo...
obviously he still feels concern for me (I honestly wasn't testing him since I e-mail everybody when I'm high). is it possible to have some kind (friendship) of a relationship with an ex-pdoc? is it ethical? has anyone here done it?
thanks for any input- judy
Posted by Dinah on December 19, 2004, at 16:17:05
In reply to Interesting dilemma, posted by judy1 on December 19, 2004, at 14:03:46
I've never done it. Don't think I ever could do it because I'd be too darned mad.
But I think overall it would be harder than having a friendship with an ex-lover or an ex-spouse. Even if it were ethical. We only see one aspect of them in our relationship. And the relationship is so all about us. It would require major renegotiation of boundaries and major realignment of perceptions and expectations. It's like the relationship exists inside a delicate bubble. You'd have to start all over again in the real world.
I'm sure he still cares about you though. And I'm glad that he was able to be helpful to you.
Posted by fallsfall on December 19, 2004, at 16:18:35
In reply to Interesting dilemma, posted by judy1 on December 19, 2004, at 14:03:46
He is being pretty clear with his boundaries, and I think you would do well to honor them.
Do you have a new pdoc? If not, perhaps you should find one.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 19, 2004, at 21:13:15
In reply to Interesting dilemma, posted by judy1 on December 19, 2004, at 14:03:46
I have a feeling the realtionship would be a big let down. As of now, you only see what that pdoc wants you to see. This gives you plenty of time to idealize. Once you see him in the real world and were granted access to him as a whole, I think it would be very disappointing. And, even though you wouldn't be client/pdoc anymore, I almost sort of think he would always have the upper hand in the relationship, I don't think it could ever really be equal.
Also, I think he is acting very ethically. Usually if these relationships are started, they lead to nothing but trouble. Thank your lucky stars he is the way he is.
Posted by pinkeye on December 20, 2004, at 14:12:45
In reply to Re: Interesting dilemma » judy1, posted by Dinah on December 19, 2004, at 16:17:05
I sooooo liked your post Dinah. You have put it in a wonderful way. Thanks a lot. It helped me so much.
Pinkeye> But I think overall it would be harder than having a friendship with an ex-lover or an ex-spouse. Even if it were ethical. We only see one aspect of them in our relationship. And the relationship is so all about us. It would require major renegotiation of boundaries and major realignment of perceptions and expectations. It's like the relationship exists inside a delicate bubble. You'd have to start all over again in the real world.
>
> I'm sure he still cares about you though. And I'm glad that he was able to be helpful to you.
Posted by judy1 on December 20, 2004, at 18:37:28
In reply to Re: Interesting dilemma » judy1, posted by Dinah on December 19, 2004, at 16:17:05
thanks, Dinah. We just exchanged another e-mail and he said "it would be ethical (to go to lunch) if I am no longer your pdoc" ok, he is no longer my pdoc (according to his letter). I am not angry at all, quite the contrary I really want to see if I can handle this. I see the downside and I understand the renegotiation of boundaries. I'm pretty sure I like the person he is but with all the transference that went on, perhaps that's not reality. Hey I'll take all the people who care about me no matter who they are/were to me. I'll let you know what happens.
take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on December 20, 2004, at 18:42:26
In reply to Re: Interesting dilemma » judy1, posted by fallsfall on December 19, 2004, at 16:18:35
well he just changed his position (see letter to Dinah). maybe because I sounded so rational in the last e-mail versus the earlier ones. No, I don't have a new pdoc- I tried and didn't like any of them and honestly I feel pretty healthy aka 'euthymic'. So the arguement could be made that I still view him as my pdoc (bear with me here :-). Maybe a part of me needs to 'recataghorize' him as a friend.
take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on December 20, 2004, at 18:46:45
In reply to Re: Interesting dilemma, posted by Miss Honeychurch on December 19, 2004, at 21:13:15
you are probably right about me 'idealizing' him. that's a large part of why I feel the need to see him in different surroundings, maybe to put a finality to the professional relationship on my terms versus his via the termination letter. Hey who knows, maybe he's got that figured out- he knows me extremely well. I really appreciate all the input, it's helping me sort all of this out.
take care, judy
Posted by LG04 on December 21, 2004, at 0:45:05
In reply to Re: Interesting dilemma » Miss Honeychurch, posted by judy1 on December 20, 2004, at 18:46:45
Hi Judy,
My former theraprist and I have discussed the idea of becoming friends. (we live in different countries and I will be visiting probably every summer for years to come...) It's not an easy thing to think about. Neither of us are certain about it. We are going thru a very slow termination process (now it's over the phone, long-distance) to reduce/eliminate dependency and transference issues, and she firmly believes we will need a "time-out" from the relationship (not speaking at all for a period of time) and then we can figure out if we want to try a friendship.
For a while the idea of a friendship appealed to me greatly. But I think I have become more realistic about it and I see the down sides. What I mostly tell myself is that I can't really make a decision about it right now. I am still in a therapeutic relationship with her and it's like trying to see the view from the bottom of the mountain. I don't know how I'll feel when I no longer feel dependent upon her. I do feel that the long termination is very helpful to me. I'm doing things at my pace and I think I'm making a lot of progress.
She doesn't feel that it is unethical to become friends, just that it has to be done very carefully, very thoughtfully, and very slowly, if it is to happen. She has practiced for 17 years and has never become friends with a former client. So it's not something she does often, obviously.
We have a very close, very special relationship and I would never want her to not be in my life and I know she feels the same way, though she has always made it very clear that if I decide to not be friends, even if I decide I only want to call her maybe once a year to say hi, that would be okay with her. She has said that she will be here for me forever, whether as a former therapist who I speak to only once in a great while (or more), or a friend.
So basically it's something that we will deal with at a future date (though of course I think about it now and she does too, both the positives and the negatives). I used to worry about it a lot but I don't so much anymore. Knowing that she will continue to be in my life in some form is enough for me; the exact future parameters aren't as important.
I will be interested to hear how the lunch goes with your former P-doc. Good luck.
LG04
p.s. By the way, I have a first appointment with a new therapist this Thursday and I am very anxious about it. But since I am still in close touch with my former therapist, I think it will be okay and won't make me miss my former therapist too terribly. Also she is a CBT so we won't go into too deep of stuff, I am not ready for another intense therapy relationship. On the phone I told this new therapist about my relationship with my former therapist and that I still speak with her often, and she said that my relationship with her (former T) and the boundaries that we have set up are our business, and she has no problem with it.
Posted by Dinah on December 21, 2004, at 6:05:24
In reply to Re: Interesting dilemma » Dinah, posted by judy1 on December 20, 2004, at 18:37:28
I don't know if you've read some of the archives here, and I do know that you understand personally, but sometimes there is some major boundary crossing and it rarely goes well. :(
Just make sure to be careful.
Posted by Dinah on December 21, 2004, at 6:06:46
In reply to Re: Interesting dilemma » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on December 20, 2004, at 14:12:45
I'm glad it helped.
Posted by Joslynn on December 21, 2004, at 9:49:30
In reply to Interesting dilemma, posted by judy1 on December 19, 2004, at 14:03:46
Hi Judy,
I think I remember some other posts from you, maybe a year ago, where you were talking about a pdoc or therp who crossed physical boundaries with you a couple years ago and now he needs to have a nurse in the office at all times....Or was that another Judy?
This isn't the same pdoc, is it?
Just concerned. Maybe that was a different pdoc or a different poster altogether.
When I was doing a lot of reading on transference and boundaries, I do remember reading that pdocs, unlike psychologists, can never have an intimate relationship with a former patient. (For psychologists, there was a certain amount of years you had to wait, but for docs it was never. Not that lunch is an intimate relationship.)
Posted by judy1 on December 21, 2004, at 13:50:44
In reply to Re: Interesting dilemma » judy1, posted by LG04 on December 21, 2004, at 0:45:05
thanks for your post- it was really helpful. You and I have a lot in common with our relationships with our therps (my pdoc was my therp also). May I ask if it ended because you moved? Mine ended because my pdoc (who's 100 miles away)felt he couldn't effectively treat me- especially when I got manic- at that distance and sent me a termination letter. I freaked out- I have lots of abandonment issues and was triggered. So I did what you are doing- phone sessions for about a month- I alternated between being furious and crying. it actually helped a lot, I just got exhausted and finally reached acceptance. Anyway I did try to find another pdoc, but I wanted that same type of nurturing relationship and couldn't find it. I did/do have a psychologist who's wonderful, but I just don't feel I need her right now. All the pdocs did were med checks- ten minutes in and out- and I honestly felt like a statistic to them.
It's been about 8 months since I've been in contact with him and I truly feel ready to pursue a different relationship with him. I also got the 'you can call me anytime' type of thing, but of course it meant touching base and not asking for therapy.
Best of luck with your new therp. It sounds like you don't expect to have a similar relationship with her so you won't be disappointed. I guess that's where I differed from you, I really wanted something similar.
take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on December 21, 2004, at 13:55:26
In reply to Just be careful » judy1, posted by Dinah on December 21, 2004, at 6:05:24
I will Dinah. I don't need to read the archives, I'm a big part of them- especially when it came to a major (sexual) boundary crossing with a pdoc. This pdoc helped me a lot with that (and lord knows I needed a LOT of help) and maybe that's why I have such a fondness for him. So there's actually a lot of trust here despite being terminated (i sound like the movie) and I genuinely feel he won't do anything to hurt me. But I promise to keep your advice in my head.
take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on December 21, 2004, at 14:03:16
In reply to Re: Interesting dilemma » judy1, posted by Joslynn on December 21, 2004, at 9:49:30
Yes, that was me. Different pdoc who did the boundary crossing and that occurred about 4? years ago. This pdoc (the one who I want to have lunch with) is the pdoc that helped me recover from that.
You're right about shrinks not legally being able to have an intimate realtionship with a former client, I think it's 3 years for a psychologist (maybe that depends on the state). I am definitely not looking for that type of relationship with this pdoc, he is happily married and so am I. I just want someone who knows me really well (and who among us have ever been as open with our spouses or friends as we are with our therps?) in my life.
hope that explained everything.
take care, judy
Posted by Joslynn on December 21, 2004, at 14:51:30
In reply to Re: Interesting dilemma » Joslynn, posted by judy1 on December 21, 2004, at 14:03:16
Phew! Ok, that clears things up, I figured I was getting the two pdocs confused. We've just had some really egregious violations occur to some of the people on this board and I was just worried.
Well, lunch sounds ok then.
Posted by pinkeye on December 21, 2004, at 16:21:18
In reply to Interesting dilemma, posted by judy1 on December 19, 2004, at 14:03:46
I have become extremely sceptical of trying to maintain a relationship with our pdocs or ex - pdocs. It is very emotionally draining for you, involves extreme emotional involvement and constant thinking and analyzing of your actions that it is probably not worth it. Why even go there and try to create a relationship in thin air? Take care of yourself - there are plenty of good and available people out there for you. Remember never to confuse professional caring with personal caring. You will be really disppointed.
Posted by LG04 on December 21, 2004, at 21:48:23
In reply to Why even go there?, posted by pinkeye on December 21, 2004, at 16:21:18
I very respectfully disagree with the last sentence you wrote. I know that my former therapist cares deeply for me both professionally and personally.
The rest of what you said may turn out to be true, as far as it being very difficult and so on. though i do think that each relationship is so unique and different depending upon the specific dynamics between the two people and the circumstances and so on.
but the caring part, well as i said, i know my therapist cares so very much for me and loves me dearly, person-to-person. she's my 5th therapist and the first one that i can definitely say that about. so it doesn't happen in many cases but i think it does happen in some.
LG04
Posted by LG04 on December 21, 2004, at 21:51:50
In reply to Re: Interesting dilemma » LG04, posted by judy1 on December 21, 2004, at 13:50:44
hi judy,
yes it ended because i moved half a world away. :( I don't think i could have made the move if i thought it would have meant the end of contact with her. she always reassured me that our relationship would continue even if i moved. so i was able to do it, and it was the right thing, though in many ways it's very hard and i'm still very much in transition and struggling with loneliness, depression, etc.i think it's very good that you are doing this after 8 months of no contact. and as i said, i am very interested to hear how it goes. i also really believe that relationships are so different from one another so i won't base my situation with her on what happens between you and your pdoc. but i'd still like to hear how it feels for you.
LG04
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