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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Aphrodite on November 6, 2004, at 9:13:51
Ever since Pfinstegg mentioned Schore's research on how the brain can repair itself from years of abuse, I have been reading up on it and discussing it with my T. My T has been researching as well. He went to a conference and to a session that he thought would help me. (Isn't that touching? He thought about me at a conference. A little concern goes a long way with me.) Anyway, the speaker is an expert on DID and ego states and that is all he treats. He said that there is new research going on that shows that each ego state has it's on neural pathways. Some ego states may have been damaged, but others function and thrive. The goal is to integrate or to at least strengthen the ego states that have better pathways. For me, that would mean that little Aphrodite and adolescent Aphrodite (the former had neglect, the latter had abuse) have damaged neural pathways. However, the coping adult and an authentic part of me managed to survive and probably had some neuronal growth. So, he wants to strenghthen those parts in functioning in the world while trying to repair the damage of the younger parts.
I'm sure I have screwed up the science terms, maybe Pfinstegg could help? The bottom line is that I walked away with hope. I thought I was not "wired" correctly and that could never be overcome. My T pointed out things I am capable of doing and feeling (like being a good mother when mine was not) that show all is not lost.
I love the rare glimmer of hope:)
Posted by Dinah on November 6, 2004, at 9:24:03
In reply to Ego states and brain research, posted by Aphrodite on November 6, 2004, at 9:13:51
I so wanted to do neurobiofeedback so that without telling my biofeedback guy, I could change ego states or if I couldn't do that (and I often can't) show up for different sessions as different ego states and see the differences.
It seems to me that there is some real self hypnosis going on to access the emotional me. It would have been interesting to see if there was any physical brain changes. In the meantime, I have to trust the evidence my body shows me. I'd rather have hard evidence, though.
(I forget. Is integration a goal for you? It really isn't for me.)
Posted by Aphrodite on November 6, 2004, at 9:30:32
In reply to Re: Ego states and brain research » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on November 6, 2004, at 9:24:03
I think integration is an important goal for me. I have had these different states arguing, vying for dominance, etc. for a long time. They are so very different that chaos reigns in my thoughts. So, if we could all come to some sort of *agreement*, I think I could have some peace.
Posted by Dinah on November 6, 2004, at 9:42:38
In reply to Re: Ego states and brain research » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on November 6, 2004, at 9:30:32
My therapist sounds like an exasperated parent sometimes, asking two siblings to quit fighting. But his goal is cooperation, not integration. (Because he knows I feel pretty strongly about it.)
My own goal is for my *other* ego state to gain some sense and to see that *I* am right. :P (And that's one thing each ego state could say in full agreement.)
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 6, 2004, at 10:38:48
In reply to Ego states and brain research, posted by Aphrodite on November 6, 2004, at 9:13:51
> Ever since Pfinstegg mentioned Schore's research on how the brain can repair itself from years of abuse, I have been reading up on it and discussing it with my T.
Okay, who was keeping Schore a secret, and why? <kidding>
I found some excellent information written by Schore at http://www.trauma-pages.com/ under menu selection 2a. Very interesting stuff.
Lot's of other neat stuff there, too.
Lar
Posted by Aphrodite on November 6, 2004, at 10:49:00
In reply to Re: Ego states and brain research » Aphrodite, posted by Larry Hoover on November 6, 2004, at 10:38:48
I've spent *a lot* of time at that website, Larry. It is excellent. Thanks for posting such a good source.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 6, 2004, at 11:20:46
In reply to Ego states and brain research, posted by Aphrodite on November 6, 2004, at 9:13:51
> He said that there is new research going on that shows that each ego state has it's on neural pathways. Some ego states may have been damaged, but others function and thrive. The goal is to integrate or to at least strengthen the ego states that have better pathways.
Perhaps even just linking the better pathways is enough?
> For me, that would mean that little Aphrodite and adolescent Aphrodite (the former had neglect, the latter had abuse) have damaged neural pathways.
I hate the word damaged. I just hate it. Those two identities were adaptive states. Some aspects of those states were maladaptive (from a life span perspective). You want to separate the wheat from the chaff.
> However, the coping adult and an authentic part of me managed to survive and probably had some neuronal growth. So, he wants to strenghthen those parts in functioning in the world while trying to repair the damage of the younger parts.
How about a different metaphor? If each of these identities has its own neural pathways, why not think of it as going mining within the brain's experiences? There's gold in them hills, errr, lobes. And some cesspools, no doubt. You want to dig for gold, and block off (backfill?) the paths to the cesspools.
The problem as I see it isn't that there is no gold in those older versions of Aphrodite, but that there is no path *yet* to those riches. Those identities were formed on purpose. They helped you to manage the unmanageable. You want to find a way to bridge the separation, but be a little selective about those links you retain. You want bridges to gold, not to cesspools.
> I'm sure I have screwed up the science terms, maybe Pfinstegg could help? The bottom line is that I walked away with hope. I thought I was not "wired" correctly and that could never be overcome. My T pointed out things I am capable of doing and feeling (like being a good mother when mine was not) that show all is not lost.
Don't ever lose sight of the fact that you are not perpetuating the intergenerational transfer of abuse. The buck stopped. I'm proud of you.
> I love the rare glimmer of hope:)Let hope be not so rare. ;-)
Lar
Posted by daisym on November 6, 2004, at 13:16:51
In reply to Re: Ego states and brain research » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on November 6, 2004, at 9:30:32
I think I'm moving integration to the top of my priority list too. I stay up nights thinking myself in a circle between what "she" wants and what "I" think is the responsible thing to do. Besides, I think if I could at least integrate the youngest part of me, the attachment to my therapist might ease off and separation wouldn't be so hard. I think the 12 year old is going to take longer, but I'm starting to feel like she is a convenient holder of the misery and anger. And I feel like I need to take responsibility for my own feelings and deal with them. I can't just let it be OK because it is "her" and not "me." This probably makes no sense...
I love it if you would share any suggestions for reading up on integration and how to do it.
btw, I'm glad you see the hope. It is embodied in your child. What a precious gift.
Posted by corafree on November 6, 2004, at 15:33:56
In reply to Re: Ego states and brain research » Aphrodite, posted by daisym on November 6, 2004, at 13:16:51
Wow, what "she" wants and what "I" want, is me too! Repairing the internal/external damage and even just making some connections, gives me some hope; as I've wondered whether the short flickers of hope that I've felt infrequently were real; glimpes of the good/sweet/loving me. bewellALL cf
> I think I'm moving integration to the top of my priority list too. I stay up nights thinking myself in a circle between what "she" wants and what "I" think is the responsible thing to do. Besides, I think if I could at least integrate the youngest part of me, the attachment to my therapist might ease off and separation wouldn't be so hard. I think the 12 year old is going to take longer, but I'm starting to feel like she is a convenient holder of the misery and anger. And I feel like I need to take responsibility for my own feelings and deal with them. I can't just let it be OK because it is "her" and not "me." This probably makes no sense...
>
> I love it if you would share any suggestions for reading up on integration and how to do it.
>
> btw, I'm glad you see the hope. It is embodied in your child. What a precious gift.
Posted by Aphrodite on November 7, 2004, at 8:48:53
In reply to Re: Ego states and brain research » Aphrodite, posted by Larry Hoover on November 6, 2004, at 11:20:46
I appreciate your reframing of the assessment I have of myself. It was good for me to hear that. We all did what we could under the circumstances, right? Thanks for your support and encouragement -- I needed the objective take you gave on all of this.
Posted by Aphrodite on November 7, 2004, at 8:54:14
In reply to Re: Ego states and brain research » Aphrodite, posted by daisym on November 6, 2004, at 13:16:51
I'm not sure how integration works. I've read some people use EMDR for this purpose, and I've read about meditation for this, which I find especially intriguing. My T uses a guided meditation with me on each visit in which all the various aspects of myself gather at the beginning of the session. In it, he sits down with each part and asks how they feel and what they need. Then he speaks to each one, gently to the children, assertively to the controlling adults. Then he asks me to create an governing part of myself to try to manage all the parts and ask them to come to some sort of agreement or consensus about the session or a particular issue we're working on. They have yet to agree, but at least *they* are talking. When we first started, sometimes some parts didn't show or others left while he was talking to others. So, I think I have had progress.
Posted by Daisym on November 7, 2004, at 11:15:45
In reply to Re: Ego states and brain research » daisym, posted by Aphrodite on November 7, 2004, at 8:54:14
I found an interesting web site last night. I was surfing as sleep refused to come. It is sort of basic, things I already knew, but it was also really clear and has a good description of ego states. Let me know what you think.
http://www.integrativetherapy.com/article-process.html
I'm going to talk to my therapist about this next week. Seems like there must be a book I could read. (isn't there always!)
Posted by Daisym on November 7, 2004, at 11:23:09
In reply to Re: Ego states and brain research, posted by Daisym on November 7, 2004, at 11:15:45
I forgot to say that I read most of the articles linked from this web site and all are pretty good. So don't just stop at the one I linked.
Posted by Aphrodite on November 7, 2004, at 17:15:04
In reply to Ego states and brain research, posted by Aphrodite on November 6, 2004, at 9:13:51
This article has some case examples regarding something Pfinstegg posted about the patient and therapist having right-brain alignment in order to heal.
Posted by daisym on November 7, 2004, at 18:56:43
In reply to another interesting article, posted by Aphrodite on November 7, 2004, at 17:15:04
I liked the article though it was a little hard to wade through. I'm not sure what she means completely by impulsivity.
I'm coming to realize that perhaps I could understand myself better if I had acted out in a more traditional manner to csa...I haven't had trouble with relationships...I have several close friends, my children are all doing really well and I've been married for 21 years. I'll concede that the marriage isn't a happy one, and I tend to know a lot more about my friends than they do about me, but certainly I have the capacity for good business relationships, being a neighbor, etc. I haven't acted out sexually...I'm responsible...I finish what I start, I'm not too over-the-top about things being clean and organized, but I do manage to keep order, I have a successful career. I don't know. So many of these articles talk about people who have a life that's a mess...this isn't me. But I feel like a mess right now, and so unhappy. But there isn't any one thing to fix to make it all better. Which leaves me again to wonder, "what am I doing?" Am I looking to fix something that isn't broken? Do I want extraordinary when I should be content with ordinary?
Makes me thing of the Billy Joel song, "Oh these days of quiet desperation, as I wonder through the world in which I live." Maybe I should stop looking for fix myself and just accept that life is what it is.
Posted by Aphrodite on November 7, 2004, at 19:26:43
In reply to Re: another interesting article, posted by daisym on November 7, 2004, at 18:56:43
I am so much like you in that my day to day life is functional and normal and some would say successful (at least career-wise). My csa did not lead to promiscuity, though I see how that happens, but it did lead to deadening of emotions and more superficial relationships where I am more of a giver and never a taker. The parental neglect and abuse did not rob from me the capacity to love and to be a good mother myself, but it does cause me to be hypervigilant and overly protective. I always try to remind myself that, all things considered, I am very lucky.
However, what needs to be fixed is a hard time with self-soothing, a need to be in control, either feeling incredibly powerful by being in denial or totally weak by being flooded with memories. But sometimes I worry that what I am doing in trying to use therapy for happiness is missing out on the happiness that already abounds. I worry that the introspection and journeys to the past cause me to miss out on the joys around me that I cannot see or feel but know are there.
Most of all, I worry that I am ungrateful. There has been much pain, yes, but God gave me many strengths and opportunities, too. When I cry, "Why me?" my critical adult says, "Why *not* you? Would you like to suggest someone else?" But my therapist gives me all of these opportunities to cry out over all the hurt and rejection. I indulge myself in it. I'm addicted to it.
Posted by daisym on November 7, 2004, at 19:42:44
In reply to Re: another interesting article » daisym, posted by Aphrodite on November 7, 2004, at 19:26:43
I think you articulated pretty well what I'm feeling...indulging is a good word. Using therapy for happiness...why, because it is safe to be honest with how I feel, with no pressure to compromise or move to action? It is a good question. Being honest about your feelings in the real world takes courage, and the ability to have those feelings challenged and even rejected. I'm not ready for that.
I think this journey might indeed be preventing me from counting my blessings. My husband had a relatively bad diabetic episode on Thursday night. He is fine now, but it was enough to remind me that I have here and now responsibilities that are important and won't wait. I have no idea how to reach a compromise around my needs and his, when his seem so much more urgent. I know mine wouldn't if I wasn't doing this work in therapy.
My therapist keeps asking me, "can you stop now?" Honestly, I don't know. I tear up thinking about it, it feels like gathering myself up to jump from the speeding car. But if the speeding car is headed over the cliff, isn't jumping off here better? I don't think he can build the bridge that fast.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 8, 2004, at 0:08:12
In reply to Ego states and brain research, posted by Aphrodite on November 6, 2004, at 9:13:51
I'm afraid I can't help, because I've already written all I know at the moment! Happening upon Schore's articles, going to his conference, reading two of his books and discussing it all with my analyst has had quite a profound effect on how we are with each other in sessions. We have both gradually allowed ourselves to pay a lot more attention to non-verbal behavior, unexpressed feelings, voice tones, body movement, etc. We notice how we both move in and out of attunement and intimacy, and are both learning the value of sharing more of these seemingly tiny events. I use the couch less- making sure I use my eyes as well as my other senses in each session. trying to be more open to the total experience of being WITH him. He also talks sometimes about growing new connections from dissociated parts to my conscious adult part, as yours does. I think this is such a new way of thinking about how therapy works; no-one knows very much about it yet, but interest is definitely high!
I note that my different ego states are sort of working together now to try to overcome the fear and helplessness caused by the traumas of the past. Also, the *girl* and her feelings now predominate in sessions. This is new; when I first began to be aware of having a really cut-off *girl*, I felt that *she* was causing all of my difficulties, and once shocked myself by shouting at my analyst, "let's get rid of her!" I can't do that any more!
I hope I'll eventually be able to say here that we worked together- two people, with all of our senses, words, thoughts and feelings, and were able to put the pain of the past to rest. It is a work in progress...
Posted by corafree on November 8, 2004, at 1:19:28
In reply to Re: Ego states and brain research » Aphrodite, posted by Pfinstegg on November 8, 2004, at 0:08:12
As long as keep 'idea' in mind; journey can be an adventure, and hope you'll share the sites along the way. cf
, the '> I'm afraid I can't help, because I've already written all I know at the moment! Happening upon Schore's articles, going to his conference, reading two of his books and discussing it all with my analyst has had quite a profound effect on how we are with each other in sessions. We have both gradually allowed ourselves to pay a lot more attention to non-verbal behavior, unexpressed feelings, voice tones, body movement, etc. We notice how we both move in and out of attunement and intimacy, and are both learning the value of sharing more of these seemingly tiny events. I use the couch less- making sure I use my eyes as well as my other senses in each session. trying to be more open to the total experience of being WITH him. He also talks sometimes about growing new connections from dissociated parts to my conscious adult part, as yours does. I think this is such a new way of thinking about how therapy works; no-one knows very much about it yet, but interest is definitely high!
>
> I note that my different ego states are sort of working together now to try to overcome the fear and helplessness caused by the traumas of the past. Also, the *girl* and her feelings now predominate in sessions. This is new; when I first began to be aware of having a really cut-off *girl*, I felt that *she* was causing all of my difficulties, and once shocked myself by shouting at my analyst, "let's get rid of her!" I can't do that any more!
>
> I hope I'll eventually be able to say here that we worked together- two people, with all of our senses, words, thoughts and feelings, and were able to put the pain of the past to rest. It is a work in progress...
>
Posted by corafree on November 8, 2004, at 1:40:38
In reply to Re: another interesting article » daisym, posted by Aphrodite on November 7, 2004, at 19:26:43
I see you are too hard on yourself. Are you fearful of love? Let some love in. cf
This is the end of the thread.
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