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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on October 20, 2004, at 19:11:20
Mine can be a real pain in the patootie sometimes. (couldn't find patootie in Merriam Webster so I assume it's ok) Nowhere near as sensitive as Daisy's.
We spent all session arm wrestling over specifics. Why on earth does it matter exactly how? I mean I gave him the generalities of how - enough for him to assess all those darn things they need to assess. He couldn't give me a decent reason for pressing for more details than that. Geesh. Some things are private. I finally gave him something to put in his chart if it was so all fired important, and lied outright. But I told him that I'd do that if he pressed, so...
It's all the more annoying because I told him I was feeling better, and didn't think I'd act on any impulses. Did that get me off the hook? No! I feel like a hamburger at a barbeque. Badly overgrilled.
Sniff. Snort. Braaack.
I wonder how long he's going to punish me with these questions?
Posted by Aphrodite on October 20, 2004, at 19:20:46
In reply to I still want to trade therapists with Daisy, posted by Dinah on October 20, 2004, at 19:11:20
Mine recently asked for detail after detail as well. When I asked, he said he wanted to be "in it" entirely with me. I figured out later that he also wanted the specifics so he could do things to thwart it. For instance, there are means he wanted me to bring in and give to him for safekeeping. His questioning was extremely gentle but insistent. I think the more they know, the more they can help if things get desperate.
I'm glad you talked to him about it even though it's so uncomfortable. Sometimes just letting someone else know breaks the isolation that feeds it.
(((Dinah)))
Posted by Dinah on October 20, 2004, at 19:34:39
In reply to Re: I still want to trade therapists with Daisy » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on October 20, 2004, at 19:20:46
I don't know... He never was able to give a decent reason other than it's what he would ask any client in the circumstances. That it was the next question in a series of questions. That hardly seems like a good reason.
It might have been better (though I still would likely have lied unless he had given me a good explanation) if he had been gentle. But it all felt completely adversarial. I think he was inches away from threatening me with termination. I could almost see him thinking to himself "Threatening with termination probably isn't a good idea. I've heard how she thinks of her husband threatening divorce. I've worked hard on building trust. Don't do it. Don't do it."
And he admitted that something he had said the other day had more to do with the fact that he was p*ssed off than with his actual intent. His words, not mine. And said with a grin that made it a little bit hard to be mad at him.
Sigh.
I'm trying to cut him slack because of the stressors in his own life.
Posted by fallsfall on October 20, 2004, at 21:31:46
In reply to Re: I still want to trade therapists with Daisy » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on October 20, 2004, at 19:34:39
Sorry, Dinah, Daisy doesn't have to share her therapist... But I know what you mean.
>I think he was inches away from threatening me with termination.
I really doubt this. He might have been inches away from sending you to the hospital, but not terminating you.
I think that they believe that it dissipates the intensity if we tell them all the details. Makes the plan less magical. That the fact that it is a secret magnifies the plan somehow.
There was once when my therapist wanted to know my plan (actually my second plan, he knows my first one) but I wouldn't tell him. He was really pushy, even the next session. Finally I told him that I would be able to stop thinking about it if he let it drop, that the only reason it was still on my mind was because I was trying to figure out how to handle his questions. He let it go, but I'm sure that if I start feeling suicidal again that he will grill me again.
He doesn't want you to die - how would he pay his bills?? Just kidding!!! Just kidding!!!
Posted by Daisym on October 20, 2004, at 22:13:56
In reply to Re: I still want to trade therapists with Daisy, posted by fallsfall on October 20, 2004, at 21:31:46
I might be willing to share with YOU Dinah, it is just that "sharing" is a special trigger today. (I love you Falls! Thanks for protecting me.) Sometimes I envy you your security though. I guess the grass is always greener.
I agree with everyone else. I think there must be a class that teaches them how to assess the danger. Even in my business, we are taught what "it" might look like, as we deal with a lot of depressed moms. You don't really fit the profile very well in some places, (women with young children) so I'm guessing your therapist was trying to get a sense of how detailed your thinking is. I think it is also in some ways to make you sick of it...sort of like the techniques for handling si. I get sort of mortified most of the time when talking about it. This last time I was pretty matter of fact. I think I actually said to him, "now don't freak out but..." and I told him more than he had asked.
All that said, I'm sorry you felt pushed and questioned. I would wish for you support and understanding. It sort of helped to hear that he would be devastated, instead of wondering if he would be angry. And it helped to process those feelings of despair with him, instead of alone.
Of course, today I actually was able to articulate what I needed to hear and I was able to take in all that reassurance. So I'm feeling pretty good about our relationship. If you had asked me this last week, when I was in the serious throws of fighting the dependency again, I would have outright given him to you. (don't tell, K?)
Seriously, I wish I knew how to make it better for you. You know your therapist cares so much about you, he is just doing what he can to protect you. He won't terminate, he might hospitalize. Mine told me on Monday that the more details I get into place, the less time he has to act. So at some point, he will take action and I won't like it. I of course said, "I don't have to tell you." His answer was, "I know, but I want you to and you promised." *sigh*
Posted by Dinah on October 20, 2004, at 22:31:37
In reply to Re: I still want to trade therapists with Daisy, posted by Daisym on October 20, 2004, at 22:13:56
What I meant, of course, is that I'd like to clone your therapist and send his clones out all over the country - including here.
Or maybe he could teach classes and I could send my therapist. :)
Seriously, my therapist has a few small flaws and this is one of them. He tends to get self defensive easily, and he's not all that ummm... therapeutic... when he's in that mode. He's gotten better, but clearly it's still an area where he needs work.
It used to be he'd cross his arms and tell me that he hoped I didn't make that choice, but that there was nothing he could do about it. I suppose his reaction now is a big step forward from that. Now he mentions that, if it meant anything to me, it would be distressing to him.
The truth is that my exact plans are too private to reveal in part because they evolved partly out of fears of termination, and the plans themselves are symbolic of that. Now even when the reasons aren't termination, the plans remain the same. But how could I reveal that? Just plain too embarassing and revealing and frankly none of his business.
Even in therapy you should be allowed to retain some privacy.
Posted by daisym on October 21, 2004, at 0:54:41
In reply to Of course, and I'm sorry..., posted by Dinah on October 20, 2004, at 22:31:37
Cloning huh? Hmmm...well, I'll see what he is willing to donate to make that happen. Funny, the only time I've really seen him get defensive is when I have admitted to not calling him because I thought I'd be intruding, and he sort of does this frustrated thing about "well, I TOLD you it would be OK, I just might not get back to you for a little while", which of course was not the reason I held back. Sometimes I wonder if he knows how different he is from some of the other therapists I've heard about. I have this fear that he will go to some seminar or another and change the way he does things. (I should tell him this as he is currently working on his PhD.)
I don't think you have to reveal where your plan came from, etc. I guess I don't even think the details are as important as the reasons behind the decision and/or the catalyst for taking action. Because you might never need the details if you can avoid the trigger...
I'm glad he told you he would be upset. I would too. I hope your are listening to this. How can I grab your hand if you aren't there to offer it?
I definitely think we need to put into place that road trip we talked about this summer. I think we need each other.
Posted by mair on October 21, 2004, at 8:16:43
In reply to No need for sorry » Dinah, posted by daisym on October 21, 2004, at 0:54:41
Dinah - I think in shrinkdom, the more well formulated the plan, the more likely it is to be implemented. If you had revealed the plan, in detail, I think he would have asked you questions to figure out whether you've taken any steps under the plan.
And I'm with Falls - there's no way your T wants to terminate you over this - although I certainly understand your concern. I used to worry about this alot also, thinking my T would want to drop me as a patient because I had just gotten to be too much trouble.
And seriously, Dinah, isn't one thing that's so attractive about Daisy's T is the level of his personal concern? Maybe you need to look at your T's questions as a reflection of his level of concern.
A few years ago, I never gave my T much thought when I started obsessing about suicide. I just couldn't conjure up an image of her caring. Now she intrudes alot when I think about killing myself. Sometimes it's an annoyance that I have to think of her, in addition to sorting out what this would mean to my family. Of course, when I'm feeling better I'm happy that there's another barrier to acting impulsively.
Mair
Posted by antigua on October 21, 2004, at 9:03:41
In reply to Re: No need for sorry, posted by mair on October 21, 2004, at 8:16:43
but then I'm probably not in touch w/my feelings as you guys are.
Last year when I was all torn up over the way my CBT T had treated me (abandonment, bad therapy, little regard for me as a desperately hurting person and him not realizing,or even caring, for that matter)was the first time I ever developed a real plan. While I certainly spoke to my regular T about what was going on, I never considered any effect it might have had on her if I had followed through. She just wasn't part of the equation. If I made up my mind, it was my mind. Instead, I foolishly gave my "means of demise" to my CBT therapist, as if I presented him w/my "gifts" he would finally understand. He didn't.
Even now, as much as I love my T, I still feel alone in all of this; I don't consider her feelings at all. How sad is that? As far as I ever get is telling her how serious it is when I get that desparate. Maybe it's the ultimate wall between us. Maybe I should talk to her about it.
Sorry to sidetrack, but you guys always make me think.
antigua
Posted by mair on October 21, 2004, at 14:46:35
In reply to I feel differently about this..., posted by antigua on October 21, 2004, at 9:03:41
Some time ago, there was a thread about whether any of us had ever made our Ts cry. I can't say that I have, but I really thought she was very close to it once over the issue you raise. (I'm pretty sure there was a decided catch to her voice).
We were talking about how much I was obsessing about suicide. When I think about suicide I don't so much formulate plans as I do visualize different parts of my plan. When I say I obsess about suicide it usually just means I can't stop an intrusive process where I'm constantly picturing different aspects of my plan, or imagining what might happen afterwards.
I told her that to the extent that I thought about her, I didn't imagine at all that my suicide would have any effect on her - that her reaction would be sort of a "win some lose some" response before she went on to the next patient. I don't know why I told her this - I don't remember it being in response to a question, and I really don't think I was trying to hurt her. She was pretty nonreactive because she tries to remain impassive about things all the time (sometimes to an aggravating extent), but when she spoke, I heard a catch in her voice like she was struggling to stay composed. Later on I realized a little more objectively that what I said was pretty awful, although entirely truthful, and I felt bad for having hurt her. I also remember thinking it strange that she should care more than me about whether or not I killed myself.
It's taken me a long time to get to the point where I think about the negative impact my suicide would have on her. I take it to be a piece of evidence that I care about her even though I like to tell myself that she means nothing to me and I mean nothing to her.
And when I am really feeling suicidal, it is annoying to have to work out her piece of this - it's been hard enough for me to ever convince myself that my suicide won't have an awful effect on my family, so factoring in my T just seems like another impediment. Of course, the negative view is that she's an impediment; the more positive one is that she's become a safety valve.
Mair
Posted by crushedout on October 21, 2004, at 19:05:50
In reply to Re: I feel differently about this... » antigua, posted by mair on October 21, 2004, at 14:46:35
I read this article earlier this week and found it really interesting. It's about the distress patients cause their shrinks when they commit suicide. I found it comforting that it causes them so much distress and that the author said he did not experience relief. (Made me wonder if I was angry at my T.)http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/19/health/psychology/19case.html?oref=login
Posted by Dinah on October 21, 2004, at 21:00:45
In reply to Re: No need for sorry, posted by mair on October 21, 2004, at 8:16:43
I think the appeal of Daisy's therapist is the openness with which he expresses his concern. I actually do think my therapist cares about me. He tells me that in hundreds of small ways. The way he relaxes when he's with me. The fact that he discloses about his personal life. But he's way more rigid and has firmer boundaries than Daisy's therapist.
Admittedly sometimes I like that, because believe it or not, I'm a rather reserved person. But sometimes I wish he were a bit more emotional.
It's just the way he is, I'm sure. I don't think it's a reflection on me particularly.
I know that killing myself would hurt him. And that actually is a consideration in my decisions, just as Babble is, and my husband, and most of all my son.
I think the worst of this suicidal crisis is over. But my life still is horrible. I just got more bad news about my dad today. And I really don't want to lose my daddy. No matter how difficult he is.
And I'm in hideous shape as far as work is concerned. If I get it done on time it'll be a miracle. :(
I'll ask him if he was thinking of threatening me tomorrow. I think he'll be honest.
And I suppose I need to decide whether the stress relieving benefits of going three times a week outweigh the fact that I have three weeks of work to do in one week.
Wish me luck everyone.
Posted by Annierose on October 21, 2004, at 22:11:33
In reply to Re: No need for sorry » mair, posted by Dinah on October 21, 2004, at 21:00:45
Good Luck Dinah! I do believe it is beneficial to go 3X a week during peak stress!! He is at least one of the legs in your stool. Instead of *threatening* ... did you mean to write *terminating*. I don't think he ever considered that. I do know what you mean about the differences in boundary setting and disclosure. My T is VERY strict with both and for the most part, I do appreciate the boundries. Years ago I briefly saw another T with very loose boundries, and it more like chatting with a girlfriend, than therapy. Balance. When my current T feels disclosing something is important for me to hear, she will. And she does tell me she cares about me in lots of ways. Good Luck tomorrow. Glad to hear you are feeling a little better. -Annie
Posted by antigua on October 22, 2004, at 11:01:41
In reply to Re: No need for sorry » mair, posted by Dinah on October 21, 2004, at 21:00:45
This is the end of the thread.
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