![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by shrinking violet on September 9, 2004, at 18:58:41
I saw my T today. I don't feel that great about it all...I managed to talk some today, and we went over some of my artwork and I sat next to her as we went through each piece, but I know I'm still not doing and saying what she wants / needs from me. Not that I know exactly what that is. Not that I'd know where to start, either.
Besides, I think I'm going to lose her in December. I was originally going to graduate in Dec (my T is a LICSW at my university), but I decided to slow down and extend it until May. But I'm pretty sure my T is going to end with me in Dec. Even today, she said we have a "few months..." So I figure, even if I were somehow able to let all of this stuff out, why would I do that when we have such a short time left? I feel like the stuff is *right there,* that at any time it's going to come pouring out, whether I want it to or not, but why would I open the floodgates and risk her not being there to help me work through it or contain it?
Maybe I should quit with her now. Why go for the next few months, only to torture both of us, and count down to that one last goodbye session? I dont know if I can handle that.
But maybe I'm just running away from the "closeness" of our relationship (as my T is fond of saying). It is too intense, and too intimate, and close....especially for something that isn't even real. My T says just because it isn't the same as friendships or other relationships, doesn't make it unreal. But I don't know if I agree with that; it's easy for her to say, isn't it? I mean next to nothing to her. I'll never be her friend, or her daughter, or even an outside acquaintance. She means too much to me, and it hurts, and it's scary. And I dont know if I can handle it. When I leave her office, and go back to my lonely, dark world, it's too hard. The difference is almost palpable. And the six days in-between have been so very hard lately. I'm not sure why. I'm afraid she'll forget me, or I'll forget her. Or maybe I need reassurance and reminding that she's actually there. But I can't have that. And that's just another reminder of how weird and surreal this "thing" with her is.
The ironic thing is that I don't think I can even tell her any of that. Because then she'll think my relationship with her is "hurting" me and she might terminate me, which would be too devastating.
I don't know what to do.
And my cat's vet just called; her bloodtest showed hyperthyroidism, so now she has to go on meds. :( Just another reminder that nothing is permanent. And I dont want my cat to be sick. :(
I'm really at a loss. Maybe I should just decide whether I can exist the way my life is now, and the way I feel inside, for the next xx years. Or if not, maybe it's time to cash in the chips.
I tried. But did I really?
*sigh*A good note: I gaver her a birthday/thank you gift today ands she accepted it (I wasn't sure she would or could), and seemed to like it. I hope. :)
Posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 21:13:38
In reply to not sure i can / should keep doing this, posted by shrinking violet on September 9, 2004, at 18:58:41
I feel your conflict. I think therapy is such a mind-bending situation all on its own. So many of us think we mean nothing to our therapists, there just seems to be this deep desire to make an impact but I don't think that's an unrealistic human expectation!
SV, if I could do therapy all over again I would charge through, I'm sure I would. Say everything that needs to be said because unless I can face the answers, I'll struggle with the same issues all my life. But then again, the therapist became too important to me and he wouldn't give me honest answers anyway because he's doing therapy, I mean hello! I'm no help to you lovey, I know that. I wish I could take your uneasiness and pull you through it to the other side. (((Shrinking Violet)))
Posted by shrinking violet on September 9, 2004, at 21:26:28
In reply to Re: not sure i can / should keep doing this » shrinking violet, posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 21:13:38
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 22:29:31
In reply to not sure i can / should keep doing this, posted by shrinking violet on September 9, 2004, at 18:58:41
Cash in the chips in therapy or in life? I don't think it's time to cash in the chips in life.
Therapy is a tough call. My therapist told me once that my attitude towards termination was an insult to our work together. That a healthy attitude would be to be glad for the time we had together and to learn and grow as much as I could from termination as well as from the therapy itself. But I'm not gonna, and nothing he says is going to make me. When he tells me that he's going to terminate me a year from now or six months from now, he will at that very point cease to be my therapist and I'll walk out and I never want him to so much as address a hello to me ever ever again.
But I can't say I recommend my own approach to anyone else. I think the wisest thing is to learn and grow as much as you can in the time you have left together.
Posted by JenStar on September 10, 2004, at 1:11:11
In reply to not sure i can / should keep doing this, posted by shrinking violet on September 9, 2004, at 18:58:41
hi SV,
to me it sounds like you are a very thoughtful person, esp. in the gift-giving arena! You seem to have a real knack for picking out things that so suit a personality. And it's cool that your T accepted the mug.I'm sorry about your cat! I hope that he (she?) will do OK on the meds...I love my pets a lot too and find that it's easy to spend $$ on their health even when I should be pinching the budget in general...
I think your questions about the reality of therapy are really, really deep. I suppose your T is right -- the relationship IS real. It's just not permanent, and it's not equal. And for me, those are the things that I usually want when I enter into a meaningful relationship. Otherwise it's like renting instead of buying; smelling a roast chicken instead of eating it. Sort of unsatisfying, after all. And most people learn to live on the edge of handling it relatively well; they put up with the emotional pain of wanting the unobtainable just because the relationship is helpful enough to warrant it.
I was thinking about this the other day. Suppose all of us out there who have transference or feeling for our T's were suddenly granted what we THOUGHT we wanted, or wanted even fleetingly for a moment: The T said to us, "Hey, I like you so much that I'm going to terminate you right now and refer you to XX person for therapy. Then I'm going to wait the recommended 6 mo (2 years?) and I'm going to call you up and we're going to be best friends!"
After a brief feeling of triumph, I think I'd feel burdened. This would require a HUGE amount of work and input on my part: Lots of listening and offering of advice -- which would have to be sound and well thought out -- to even out the playing field; lots of emotional support; learning more details than I have ever given, causing tears; asking probing questions; etc. It might be something that in the end turned out to be very unwanted. When this person came down off the pedastal and joined me face to face, would I still feel that sense of excited exaltation anymore? When this person became a peer instead of a sage, a wiseman, an oracle, would I even be interested?
It seems exhausting, and I'd rather start from scratch with a brand new person, squeaky clean, off the shelf, in the package, instead of trying to rework something so intricately!
Maybe the excitement of viewing the unobtainable friend/confidant/lover is part of what keeps people coming back to therapy? The anticipation of Christmas morning is sometimes more fun than the actual day (for me, anyway!)
I"m not sure if that is anything close to what you've ever felt. But your questions really got me thinking about the topic...
Maybe it's best to just enjoy the relationship for what it is, even knowing it will fade eventually. It can still be great NOW, right? Surreal things can be very lovely (Dali!) And sometimes renting IS better than buying...it's sort of like a 'test drive' for future 'real' relationships!
Anyway, I'm sorry to hear that you're conflicted. I hope that things improve. And I really hope your cat is OK.
Please give updates!
Best wishes from
JenStar
I saw my T today. I don't feel that great about it all...I managed to talk some today, and we went over some of my artwork and I sat next to her as we went through each piece, but I know I'm still not doing and saying what she wants / needs from me. Not that I know exactly what that is. Not that I'd know where to start, either.
>
> Besides, I think I'm going to lose her in December. I was originally going to graduate in Dec (my T is a LICSW at my university), but I decided to slow down and extend it until May. But I'm pretty sure my T is going to end with me in Dec. Even today, she said we have a "few months..." So I figure, even if I were somehow able to let all of this stuff out, why would I do that when we have such a short time left? I feel like the stuff is *right there,* that at any time it's going to come pouring out, whether I want it to or not, but why would I open the floodgates and risk her not being there to help me work through it or contain it?
>
> Maybe I should quit with her now. Why go for the next few months, only to torture both of us, and count down to that one last goodbye session? I dont know if I can handle that.
>
> But maybe I'm just running away from the "closeness" of our relationship (as my T is fond of saying). It is too intense, and too intimate, and close....especially for something that isn't even real. My T says just because it isn't the same as friendships or other relationships, doesn't make it unreal. But I don't know if I agree with that; it's easy for her to say, isn't it? I mean next to nothing to her. I'll never be her friend, or her daughter, or even an outside acquaintance. She means too much to me, and it hurts, and it's scary. And I dont know if I can handle it. When I leave her office, and go back to my lonely, dark world, it's too hard. The difference is almost palpable. And the six days in-between have been so very hard lately. I'm not sure why. I'm afraid she'll forget me, or I'll forget her. Or maybe I need reassurance and reminding that she's actually there. But I can't have that. And that's just another reminder of how weird and surreal this "thing" with her is.
>
> The ironic thing is that I don't think I can even tell her any of that. Because then she'll think my relationship with her is "hurting" me and she might terminate me, which would be too devastating.
>
> I don't know what to do.
>
> And my cat's vet just called; her bloodtest showed hyperthyroidism, so now she has to go on meds. :( Just another reminder that nothing is permanent. And I dont want my cat to be sick. :(
>
> I'm really at a loss. Maybe I should just decide whether I can exist the way my life is now, and the way I feel inside, for the next xx years. Or if not, maybe it's time to cash in the chips.
>
> I tried. But did I really?
> *sigh*
>
> A good note: I gaver her a birthday/thank you gift today ands she accepted it (I wasn't sure she would or could), and seemed to like it. I hope. :)
Posted by shrinking violet on September 10, 2004, at 10:47:55
In reply to Re: not sure i can / should keep doing this » shrinking violet, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 22:29:31
>> Cash in the chips in therapy or in life? I don't think it's time to cash in the chips in life.
In life. But I'm not sure I'd be able to even do it, which is just something else I'd fail at. I want to believe that there's something better out there for me, but....I don't think I deserve it. And I don't think it's even possible to attain, anymore. Maybe at one time I had some hope...which is why I started therapy to begin with. But here I am a year later, much worse in a lot of ways than I was before I started. And any hope I had has been all but extinguished. Because now I know I tried, and failed. And I don't think I can live like this for the next xx years.
>> Therapy is a tough call. My therapist told me once that my attitude towards termination was an insult to our work together. That a healthy attitude would be to be glad for the time we had together and to learn and grow as much as I could from termination as well as from the therapy itself.
My T said something similar. She said when our time ends she'll miss me, and hope that I'm all right and that she hasn't done any harm, but she won't be sad because she'll know that we both tried very hard, and in the meantime I should try to honor the time we have left rather than dread it. But it's easy for her to say, isn't it? She has protection, a shield, a way to separate me from meaning anything to her, but I don't have that kind of protection. I think this issue is partly why I'm so confused as to what to do: On the one hand, I don't think I can handle going every week knowing it's closer to the end, and I'm not sure I can allow myself to really DO this work in any meaningful way, knowing I'm going to lose the one source of support I have right in the middle of it. But, as you said, I do want to honor the time we have left, I want to try my damndest to do this the way I'm supposed to. I'm just not sure which one I can handle.
Sheesh, I'm more emotional today than I thought. :(
Thank you for your thoughts.
Posted by shrinking violet on September 10, 2004, at 11:07:42
In reply to Re: not sure i can / should keep doing this » shrinking violet, posted by JenStar on September 10, 2004, at 1:11:11
>> I'm sorry about your cat! I hope that he (she?) will do OK on the meds...I love my pets a lot too and find that it's easy to spend $$ on their health even when I should be pinching the budget in general...It's a she. :) Thank you, I hope she's okay on them too. She'll go back in a few weeks for more bloodwork, to check. In a way, I'm glad it's at least treatable, but again, it's a reminder that she is getting older. And I now about pinching the budget; I'm in grad school, living off loans! But as long as I can reasonably take care of her, I will.
>> I think your questions about the reality of therapy are really, really deep. I suppose your T is right -- the relationship IS real. It's just not permanent, and it's not equal.
I think the impermanence and inequality are two things I struggle with. Maybe I do know, deep down, that my T really does care about me, even though it may not be the same as her friendships, etc.
> I was thinking about this the other day. Suppose all of us out there who have transference or feeling for our T's were suddenly granted what we THOUGHT we wanted, or wanted even fleetingly for a moment: The T said to us, "Hey, I like you so much that I'm going to terminate you right now and refer you to XX person for therapy. Then I'm going to wait the recommended 6 mo (2 years?) and I'm going to call you up and we're going to be best friends!" After a brief feeling of triumph, I think I'd feel burdened.
LOL, you made me laugh, thank you. Maybe you're right, but...I don't know. I never really wanted a true friendship with my T; or, more to the point, I think I realize a true friendship with her wouldnt be feasible, given our age difference (18 years) and I doubt I'm as mature as her true friends are, lol. I see us as having more of a mentor/mentee type relationship, or maybe even a friendly acquaintance type thing where we'd get together for coffee or a movie once or twice a month, but that she would know I'm there for her if she ever needed anything. I keep trying to tell myself that I can always stay connected to her through letters and cards a few times a year (she's already said she hopes I stay in touch with her, and maybe visit once in a while), but on the one hand I'm afraid that eventually, I'll forget to write, or I'll figure she's sick of hearing from me and stop writing. But then there's a small glimmer of hope that one day, she'll write back and ask to get together. I really wish I had a crystal ball.
>>When this person came down off the pedastal and joined me face to face, would I still feel that sense of excited exaltation anymore? When this person became a peer instead of a sage, a wiseman, an oracle, would I even be interested?Interesting...do you see your T as "on a pedestal?" I guess maybe most clients do, or should. I don't, really. My T is VERY human (and hence, fallable) to me. I see her as having more education and knowledge in an area that I lack (psych) and that's why I see her, but other than that, I don't think she has any more power or wisdom than most other people. I know she's made mistakes with me: some she has acknowledged, and some I'm not even sure she's aware of. And that's okay with me, because she *is* human, and doesn't try to pretend she's an all-knowing entity.
> >Maybe the excitement of viewing the unobtainable friend/confidant/lover is part of what keeps people coming back to therapy?Maybe for some.I don't think that's true for me, though. My T says that she sometimes doesn't know why I keep going back (given how much I struggle with it, and how hard it is for me to open up). I'm not sure either, but I think partly for the first time I have someone who is willing to listen to me and give me some of what I've been lacking (nurturing, caring, attentiveness, validation), although that might be over-simplifying. I guess it's different for everyone.
>> Maybe it's best to just enjoy the relationship for what it is, even knowing it will fade eventually. It can still be great NOW, right?
I know, you're right. I try to hang onto that. But then the pain of realizing it IS temporary takes over, and I wonder why I should indulge myself in something that will only hurt more to lose later on.
>>...it's sort of like a 'test drive' for future 'real' relationships!
I know that T/client relationships are supposed to be models for outside ones, and that the client is supposed to want to seek out other similar relationships outside of the T's office. I'm not like that, though. I'm very much a loner, very introverted, and I've gotten too good at isolating myself, to the point where I dont even feel like I belong in the world anymore. If anything, this "thing" with my T is cementing my fear of people. lol.
Thank you for responding.
Posted by shrinking violet on September 10, 2004, at 11:25:39
In reply to not sure i can / should keep doing this, posted by shrinking violet on September 9, 2004, at 18:58:41
Replying to myself...a new low.
Well, it's a day later. Reading the valued responses has gotten me more emotional, for some reason. I really want to let my T know about all of this, but I'm afraid. And I just saw her yesterday, I don't want to bother her again already. I have this crazy urge to email her the link to my post, but....I can't risk her knowing about this place, because I would jeopardize my safety and ability to speak freely here in the future.
Last session she said she just started reading a new book: ""Changing Course: Healing from Loss, Abandonment, and Fear"" and she suggested I purchase a copy (which I did last night, lol) and read it with her. So maybe I should just sit on this issue and see if the book helps. If not, then I'll know we tried everything and I can bring up the issue of leaving early.
But why is it so hard to just "sit" with things? And I hate that I feel worse after a session than I do before one. :(
[Note: for some reason, the double quotes feature did not find a match, but I purchased the book at Amazon last night so I know it's there. Here's the direct link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1568387997/drbobsvirte00-20 ]
Posted by JenStar on September 10, 2004, at 11:37:12
In reply to Re: not sure i can / should keep doing this » JenStar, posted by shrinking violet on September 10, 2004, at 11:07:42
I'm sorry you feel isolated! You DO belong in the world! ;)
I feel isolated sometimes, too. There are times when I feel great and happy; then other times when I think there is no one alive who understands me, and no one who really WANTS to, and that life is such a difficult isolated journey...and it's very depressing.
About the T's: I guess I don't think of my/any T as being on a pedestal, per se... but I'm distracted by the difference in power in the relationship and that continues to bug me. I guess it's a control thing: I personally like to be the one to decide how/if the relationship advances (or at least to have 50% say in this), and when any other person is in more control of this is just irks me on some innate, internal level.
I don't necessarily think T's are all-knowing (and I appreciate it when they admit mistakes!). But some part of me just doesn't like it at all - that we're not on equal footing! I know the therapeutic relationship just wouldn't work any other way.... it just bothers me.
I actually think you hit on something HUGE when you said you wanted your T to know you are there for her if she needs it. I guess what bothers me is that the T (except rarely) NEVER needs it from us, the clients. The relationship is set up in such a way that we are unable to give back what we get, no matter how much we get, because of the imbalance in the relationship.
Of course, we give back in the sense that we 'improve' and that is the bottom line for a T in a way (success means that clients improve in various ways) but it's unsatisfying for ME. Giving can be more powerful and meaningful than receiving, and when that is denied to us -- it's hard to accept!
Oh well. Such is life, right?
I was thinking more about temporary relationships. I've had many: friends that come and go for various reasons (someone moved, we didn't click, we drifted apart); work relationships that advance or retreat, etc. Sometimes I feel a deep sense of loss when a friendship fades, and get that realization that it was doomed to impermanence from the beginning. But somehow the illusion of permanence makes it easier to start over and make new friends, sort of assuming that they'll always be around.
It's hard work to make new friends! It's hard! (At least for me...if anyone out there has advice on how to make it easier, please share!)
I guess if I knew ahead of time it was going to be temp, it would be harder to even try.
But still... in the end I put up the optimistic face and keep soldiering on.
I hope you can too. I really enjoy reading your posts here and think that you offer good insights...I know we probably don't always agree on things, but your posts make me think and determine how I feel about various topics, and I really value that.
thanks, and take care!
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on September 10, 2004, at 11:44:33
In reply to Re: not sure i can / should keep doing this » JenStar, posted by shrinking violet on September 10, 2004, at 11:07:42
hi violet,
i just reread my posts and they seem contradictory. On the one hand, I say that I recognize that the T/client relationship is unbalanced and I don't actually WANT the chance to balance it, if it was given to me, because of the difficulty and disillusionment that might follow. And then I turn right around and say that the imbalance bothers me and I want equal footing!So how do I REALLY feel? (What a task to figure that out....!) I guess I prefer relationships that have equal footing (or close to it) from the beginning, and that even if I would not choose to input the effort into "balancing" any given relationship, it still irks me to be "unbalanced." Strange, sort of. I wonder if anyone else feels this way about relationships? Why are relationships so darned complicated???
JenStar
Posted by Poet on September 10, 2004, at 13:26:24
In reply to not sure i can / should keep doing this, posted by shrinking violet on September 9, 2004, at 18:58:41
Hi Shrinking Violet,
In yesterday's session I talked about my fear of abandonment which includes my therapist terminating me. She knew about my fear and understood how hard it is to talk about. I'll bet your T knows that you're afraid she'll terminate and hopefully would be as supportive as mine was.
Maybe you could just ask her what she meant by we have a few more months and she'll take the hint? I wish I could be of more help, but I spend alot of therapy time staring at my therapist. Hope I helped a little.
Poet
Posted by LG04 on September 12, 2004, at 12:47:41
In reply to Re: not sure i can / should keep doing this » shrinking violet, posted by Poet on September 10, 2004, at 13:26:24
This is a very interesting thread, I've read similar ones here in the last few months and they all apply to me and my therapist but I haven't responded b/c it is so complicated. also i suppose i am afraid that people here would say it's wrong, or unethical, or other such things, and i have my own fears so i am a bit afraid to hear others' opinions. (though I welcome them) I also didn't want to upset anyone who might wish that their therapist would open themselves up to becoming friends but because of their individual philosophy or whatever, won't allow it. So mostly I've kept quiet about this whole thing. But I do want to talk about it.
My therapist and I have developed a very close, deep relationship. In the course of therapy, I asked her a lot of questions about herself, and she always thoughtfully answered (it took months for me to ask though, and sometimes I had to take time between asking the next one...but i always wanted to know things about her, not even necessarily "factual" things but more personal, internal things, like if she cries a lot, or what makes her sad, or how she knows she can trust someone, or does she ever do bad things, things like that). I did also ask her more factual questions too though those were harder for me to know the answers to. Made her more real. but sometimes I wanted her to be more real so I'd ask those questions too.
About 9 months into our therapy, I understood that I was special to her in a different way than her other clients. That we had a different, more intense, closer relationship. This made me feel great yet at times was confusing too of course.
We dealt a lot with boundaries. Mostly she was good at them, often better than i wanted her to be :) I fought her boundaries sometimes and she really stuck to them. And, she never needed me, which was hard for me, as someone who likes to be needed and who also was uncomfortable with the unbalanced nature of our relationship. We talked about it a lot, how much the imbalance bothered me, even though i understood it, and understood its necessity in order for it to be truly therapeutic for me.
She was just always, 99.9% there when I needed her, which was a lot. I was living in a foreign country without a big support system. Friends killed in a terrorist attack. Lots of childhood abuse stuff coming up. I really needed her. I always had/have intense transference with her, though it's calming down a bit.
I left Israel several days ago, and we terminated. Our last session was very, very special. However, I am still calling her every other day. She is letting me call her this often and we will gradually reduce the frequency at a pace I can handle. (it's still very very sad for me, it's very different than meeting twice a week. but the termination hasn't been nearly as agonizing as it would have been if i knew i was saying goodbye forever. in fact, i don't think i could have made the decision to leave israel if i didn't know that she would still be there for me, even from the states. i simply could not have left. so i am eternally grateful that she is willing to continue with me in this way, for now). Eventually, she says, we need a cooling off period of 6 months to a year where we would speak maybe once a month (unfathomable to me right now), and my dependency on her will lessen considerably or (i hope) completely except to the degree that's normal in close relationships.
And then, she said, it is up to me to decide what to do about our relationship. In other words, if I want us to be friends, she is open to that. If I want her to be still like a therapist and just to call her a several times a month, or year, she is open to that. I talked to her about maybe having a different kind of friendship, one that is just between the two of us, rather than me ever meeting her family or her coming out with me and my other friends. It would always be just the two of us getting together. Something like that (and anyway, only on my visits a few times a year as I probably won't live in Israel again). There are many variations and options. I believe that I want her to be in my life forever, and I know she would like that too. But she says it's completely up to me, that it has to be according to what I want. And then we'd figure it out together. And that if I decide that I just want her to be someone in my mind, that is okay with her.
Everything JenStar said about reworking such a complicated relationship is true. It is scary to think about. What if I don't want to be her friend once I already am her friend? So many things. Will I feel that I "owe" her and then what if I can't be there for her? I like her being special to me in that "on a pedestal" way. There's no way she can live up to it. I can't imagine that she is as good of a friend as she is therapist, it's not possible to give the same undivided attention as a therapist does, and other things.
But I want to keep learning and growing from my relationship with her. it's a very deep, soul-kind of connection. I can't imagine her not being in my life. Just can't imagine it. She is so incredibly supportive of me. She knows me so well. It will be tricky for me to get her to know real well too, though in some ways i already do...but in so many ways i don't. But we'd take it at my pace, if that's what I want. She is giving me the control and that feels good and right and safe to me. For me, it might be worth all that work. I might prefer to rework our relationship than to start scratch with someone else. We have an incredible foundation already developed. I loved what Dinah recently wrote about commitment, about if what you have is "good enough," then working with that rather than starting over with someone else. I love working on my relationship with her, we communicate so well and so openly. I have many close, intimate friends, and it's helped me with my friends as well. (as therapy is supposed to)
The bottom line is, I don't know yet what will happen. I am still too dependent upon her and need her too much. I still have too much transference with her. A year is a long time away. This is a very good lesson for me in taking things as they come, not trying to predict or create outcomes. It's like trying to see over the mountain when you're still climbing it. You simply have to wait until you're at the top before you can go any further.
I know this situation wouldn't work for everyone. I've learned so much from reading threads on Babble, about different people's relationships with their therapists. I've also read a lot of books and i regularly read the Psychotherapy Networker magazine. Each relationship is so individual and so tailored to the individual's needs. Each therapist has their own philosophies and theories and ways of working. My therapist has never continued her relationship with a client after termination in any kind of significant way, so I feel secure that it has something to do with our relationship with each other. Some people would say it's unethical. Some would say it could be amazing. I have a friend who became very close friends with her therapist after termination and she said it's a wonderful friendship. So who's to say?
It all makes me nervous but I know I would be much worse if the option wasn't there. I couldn't deal with that. I need to know that my therapist will be in my life for as long as I need her to be, and in whatever way I need her to be. I think if we do continue after a cooling off period, it will be slow and careful. (it helps that we live across the world from each other!)
So that's my contribution to this discussion. I think my situation has its pros and its cons, but so far, it's what i need and it's working for me. i do have my fears about the future of our relationship, and i am sure it will be hard work if i choose to continue it. but maybe it would be harder to choose not to continue it. or sadder, or giving up something that could be so valuable and significant in my life, and learning to be intimate with her in a more mutual way, that could be a very meaningful and growth-producing experience for me (and her too, though she would say -- at least today -- that her needs are not the issue).
i guess only time will tell what happens next. I am too biased right now b/c of the dependency. so we'll see what happens.
Yes, relationships are so very complicated.
LG
Posted by shrinking violet on September 12, 2004, at 18:41:22
In reply to Re: not sure i can / should keep doing this, posted by LG04 on September 12, 2004, at 12:47:41
Wow LG, Thank you for sharing your story. It sounds like you have a very mature and grounded way of thinking about your relationship with your T, both present and future. It sounds like you have put a lot of thought into how you would handle a future relationship. It sounds like, whatever you decide will be the right choice for you. I hope it all works out in whatever way you wish.
I agree that all T and client relationships are very different. I think my T and I are close, and she does tell me things about herself, both factual and otherwise. She has recently admitted a "vulnerability" where I am concerned, especially when she tries to "get tough" with me. Perhaps that might be a warning indicator that her judgement regarding me might not be unbiased, but I have faith in her as a T and as a person, and I know she would never knowingly harm me.
I view my T as very much a person, not someone who is on a pedestal, and she is very human to me. I think maybe that's why it makes it so hard to think I may never see her again after we terminate, because she is such a warm and decent person, someone who I would be lucky to have in my life in some way. There aren't many people out there like that (none that I've come across, anyway!). I think that I could keep in touch with my T in some way, writing letters and sending cards, perhaps visiting her once or twice a year (she has said as much regarding both modes of contact), but a part of me fears that somehow, we'll lose touch. I'll forget to write, or she might not respond and I'll stop writing, or she might change jobs, etc. But there's also a small part of me that hopes beyond hope that maybe someday, she'll respond to one of my letters and ask to see me.
Maybe some people are meant to meet, and sometimes the circumstances aren't the best. It sounds like you and your T are two of those people, and I like to think that me and my T are in that group also.
Thank you for sharing, and again, good luck.
-SV
Posted by LG04 on September 12, 2004, at 20:20:49
In reply to Re: not sure i can / should keep doing this » LG04, posted by shrinking violet on September 12, 2004, at 18:41:22
Posted by LittleGirlLost on October 6, 2004, at 12:25:17
In reply to not sure i can / should keep doing this, posted by shrinking violet on September 9, 2004, at 18:58:41
She means too much to me, and it hurts, and it's scary. And I dont know if I can handle it. When I leave her office, and go back to my lonely, dark world, it's too hard. The difference is almost palpable. And the six days in-between have been so very hard lately. I'm not sure why. I'm afraid she'll forget me, or I'll forget her. Or maybe I need reassurance and reminding that she's actually there. But I can't have that. And that's just another reminder of how weird and surreal this "thing" with her is.
>
> The ironic thing is that I don't think I can even tell her any of that. Because then she'll think my relationship with her is "hurting" me and she might terminate me, which would be too devastating.
==============I've been reading through some old posts and didn't know if I should respond or not, but I can SO relate to this. I don't even know how to express the amount of pain I feel; nor am I able to cry. I understand what you mean about not knowing what to do. And I've often thought the same as you, that if she know's she's "hurting" me (unintentionally of course) would she terminate me because "it would be in my best interest"? Even though the thought of losing her is completely devestating. ugggghh
Posted by shrinking violet on October 7, 2004, at 19:55:56
In reply to Re: not sure i can / should keep doing this » shrinking violet, posted by LittleGirlLost on October 6, 2004, at 12:25:17
> I've been reading through some old posts and didn't know if I should respond or not, but I can SO relate to this. I don't even know how to express the amount of pain I feel; nor am I able to cry. I understand what you mean about not knowing what to do. And I've often thought the same as you, that if she know's she's "hurting" me (unintentionally of course) would she terminate me because "it would be in my best interest"? Even though the thought of losing her is completely devestating. ugggghh
((((littlegirllost))))I'm sorry you can relate, and that you're hurting. It's actually been a bit better for me since I posted that....not that I still dont feel that way on some level, but in-between sessions hasnt been as hard (although my T and I tend to email a bit between sessions, which probably helps). I've been a lot more busy as well (school, internship, work) so I think I'm generally more preoccupied. Last week, I noticed that I kept my T with me all week...I felt like she was next to me, and for the first time in my life I felt truly connected to someone, and cared for by someone. Which is pretty new to me, but it felt really nice. I havent told her yet, though; I didnt get to see her last night b/c I was in a car accident and missed the appt, and I'm not even sure I could tell her. Part of me is afraid if I told her, it'll somehow go away. I think my T knows that our relationship means a lot to me. I think it means something to her as well....she's said as much, but I keep thinking it cant be the same for her as it is for me. I think it would be easier for her to hear that our closeness is helping me, or making me feel "held" or comforted, etc, but to hear things like what I posted about originally in this thread, I fear it would bother her and she'd have to react ethically. *sigh* It IS hard, and we could go in circles trying to figure it all out.
Have you tried to discuss this with your T at all? IF not telling her how hard it is for you, at least discussing your relationship/attachment for her? Maybe that would give you some idea of how she feels about it, and how she might react to hearing you're having a harder time. Maybe you just need more support right now in-between sessions, which isn't a bad thing, either. But I guess it depends on the T; they can be so different.
I hope you find peace soon. Email me if you need/want to talk more. :)
-SV
Posted by littlegirllost on October 8, 2004, at 10:20:32
In reply to Re: not sure i can / should keep doing this » LittleGirlLost, posted by shrinking violet on October 7, 2004, at 19:55:56
SV,
You give me hope in knowing that things have been a bit better for you between sessions. How wonderful that you were able to keep your T with you all week!! I wonder if I'll ever get there since it feels like things are getting worse for me. Maybe it's not really worse, maybe it's healing, but the days in between are hurting so much more.
I'm sorry to hear about your car accident!! I hope it wasn't serious and that you are okay. I know it's not easy, but I encourage you to tell her what you wrote here. I think she'd be thrilled at your progress!!
I have tried talking to my T about this, but it's just so hard especially since I numb and clam up while I'm there. We actually had a really good session last night, but today I feel as though I could die! She's been so wonderful about it, but I have a hard time sometimes accepting it and fear overstepping. You mentioned me needing more support in between sessions and also you email your T in between. May I ask how often you email? My T encourages me to call or email when I need to, and I've gotten a little comfortable with calling the next day (which is always the hardest), but I don't allow myself any more than that. I call or email once and that's it. She tells me I don't need to be so strict with myself, but I'm afraid not to, ya know?
Thanks for the support. :)
LGL
Posted by shrinking violet on October 8, 2004, at 21:18:15
In reply to Re: not sure i can / should keep doing this » shrinking violet, posted by littlegirllost on October 8, 2004, at 10:20:32
>> You give me hope in knowing that things have been a bit better for you between sessions. How wonderful that you were able to keep your T with you all week!! I wonder if I'll ever get there since it feels like things are getting worse for me. Maybe it's not really worse, maybe it's healing, but the days in between are hurting so much more.
I know, it DOES feel like things are getting worse. At least that's how it was for me for a long while. It did get better, though....the past week or so has been harder than it's been in a while, but still not as bad as when I started this post. It might get that bad again, it might not, but I don't think it would last forever. And I think it will get better for you, too. :)
> I'm sorry to hear about your car accident!! I hope it wasn't serious and that you are okay. I know it's not easy, but I encourage you to tell her what you wrote here. I think she'd be thrilled at your progress!!Thanks. No, not serious, but it took too much time and I had to miss my appt. When I called her to tell her, she was all concerned and suggested I go to the hospital, and to let her know if I needed anything. Last night, she sent me a sweet email in which she says she hopes I'm ok, and that she's thinking of me. I really needed to hear from her, especially since I didn't get to see her this week, so that note helped more than she probably knows. I might tell her at some point, if it comes up.
>> I have tried talking to my T about this, but it's just so hard especially since I numb and clam up while I'm there. We actually had a really good session last night, but today I feel as though I could die!I know the feeling. I have a really hard time opening up in session, too. *sigh*
>>She's been so wonderful about it, but I have a hard time sometimes accepting it and fear overstepping. You mentioned me needing more support in between sessions and also you email your T in between. May I ask how often you email? My T encourages me to call or email when I need to, and I've gotten a little comfortable with calling the next day (which is always the hardest), but I don't allow myself any more than that. I call or email once and that's it. She tells me I don't need to be so strict with myself, but I'm afraid not to, ya know?
I know, it *is* confusing. Hm, my T and I don't have any set number of emails that we send. She rarely initiates an email to me; more often I email her. I try not to, but....I always end up emailing about something or other; either an appointment change or something that happened in session that I need to get off my chest. Part of me wonders if I email her just b/c I need some contact with her in-between but don't want to come out and admit it to her, or ask for more direct and regular intersession contact. I mean, most of the issues that I email about I should be able to bring up during session, but either I end up reacting after session, or I forget during session. Anyway, she's been so great about it, but I feel horrible that I must bother her so much. But then she'll email me back, or send me an email asking me questions, which means I have to reply, and wonder if she's doing it consciously or not, but then I feel guilty all over again while glad that I have an excuse to contact her again.....it's a cycle. *lol* I'm trying really hard to go at least one week without bugging her in-between. It's been a while since that happened, though. :(
If I had to guess a number, I'd say I send at least one email per week; sometimes it's more if she responds and asks questions, or if I feel I need to respond to something she wrote. It isnt like I email her every day, but...still, I feel guilty about it even though it helps me stay connected to her, and it's comforting to hear from her.
As for you, I think you should talk to your T about it again. Maybe ask her if you could email her in-between if you need to, and ask her to come up with an agreement; maybe no more than 2 emails between sessions, or 1 call and 1 email, or just for a temporary time until you get past this rough spot. That way, you might not feel like you'll be overstepping bounds if you both know it's temporary and have agreed to certain "rules." And your T sounds like she understands how hard this is for you right now, and she did tell you to contact her if you need to.
Good luck, and take care. Let me know if I can be of any help!
-SV
Posted by LittleGirlLost on October 12, 2004, at 14:43:06
In reply to Re: not sure i can / should keep doing this » littlegirllost, posted by shrinking violet on October 8, 2004, at 21:18:15
>When I called her to tell her, she was all concerned and suggested I go to the hospital, and to let her know if I needed anything. Last night, she sent me a sweet email in which she says she hopes I'm ok, and that she's thinking of me. I really needed to hear from her, especially since I didn't get to see her this week, so that note helped more than she probably knows. I might tell her at some point, if it comes up.
======
That is SOOOO sweet!!! I would definitely tell her (and I'm usually quite shy when it comes to this!)
======
> I know, it *is* confusing. Hm, my T and I don't have any set number of emails that we send. She rarely initiates an email to me; more often I email her. I try not to, but....I always end up emailing about something or other; either an appointment change or something that happened in session that I need to get off my chest. Part of me wonders if I email her just b/c I need some contact with her in-between but don't want to come out and admit it to her, or ask for more direct and regular intersession contact. I mean, most of the issues that I email about I should be able to bring up during session, but either I end up reacting after session, or I forget during session. Anyway, she's been so great about it, but I feel horrible that I must bother her so much. But then she'll email me back, or send me an email asking me questions, which means I have to reply, and wonder if she's doing it consciously or not, but then I feel guilty all over again while glad that I have an excuse to contact her again.....it's a cycle. *lol* I'm trying really hard to go at least one week without bugging her in-between. It's been a while since that happened, though. :(
>
> If I had to guess a number, I'd say I send at least one email per week; sometimes it's more if she responds and asks questions, or if I feel I need to respond to something she wrote. It isnt like I email her every day, but...still, I feel guilty about it even though it helps me stay connected to her, and it's comforting to hear from her.
>
> As for you, I think you should talk to your T about it again. Maybe ask her if you could email her in-between if you need to, and ask her to come up with an agreement; maybe no more than 2 emails between sessions, or 1 call and 1 email, or just for a temporary time until you get past this rough spot. That way, you might not feel like you'll be overstepping bounds if you both know it's temporary and have agreed to certain "rules." And your T sounds like she understands how hard this is for you right now, and she did tell you to contact her if you need to.
>
=====
Yes, I know what you mean!! I am the only who puts my limit to one email or call per week, she's not even that strict! Infact, last week I had to call her the day after my session just to connect. I tortured myself all day before I gave in and made the call; besides that, I really didn't have naything to say. So I called, and told her that and she said, "well, maybe you just wanted to connect, and that's okay!" She also told me not to torture myself and to call when I want. I still cant seem to do that.... I'm afraid I'll get carried away. Although this week I did call the day after our session, then emailed... just to say hi... over the weekend. She is sweet and will always respond; just brief, but at least I know she's still there.LGL
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