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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 10:43:28
If nothing important happened in my therapist's life between now and our last session, he's going to want to talk about whether I was upset with him, because I left about five minutes before the session ended and I think he thought I was mad at him. I wasn't really, I just didn't have any more to say. But I didn't have any more to say because I was a bit stymied about what *to* say.
My father is facing a health crisis. We won't know how serious it is until after his surgery, but there's a possibility that he has pancreatic cancer, in which case his life expectancy isn't too great. The other possibility is that it's just his chronic pancreatitis, in which case his life expectancy wouldn't change a lot from what it is now. Either way, he's in poor health.
I was trying to express my really complex feelings. My father hasn't been well or happy for years, yet he fears dying. My father both scared me silly with his black moods and made me feel really very safe, because he always protected me to the best of his ability. We have an odd symbiotic relationship where we both manage to take care of each other. With the help of my therapist, I've backed away from the entangled relationships with both my parents to a large extent, but the subtext is still there. My father has been scathing to the point of cruel with my mother and brother, yet has never been more than a critical of me, and often in a teasing style that doesn't bother me. I *love* being a daughter. I'm terrified of losing my daddy. I think my therapist does understand that relationship.
My therapist answered with a lot of psychobabble drivel that sounded good but didn't address my own feelings or experiences at all. To me they were just pretty words. He's really fond of Stuart Smalley type psychobabble and always has been. I think it suits him well in his second job as a corporate motivational type person. But, for example, last session he said that feeling horrible when someone dies is a good thing because it's a mark of how much they meant to you and how much you cared for them. Pretty words, but without any real resonance for me.
The problem is that he used them in the context of his own grief when his mother died last year. I usually like that therapeutic approach, using his personal experiences so that what he is telling me doesn't sound so much like a lecture and is in context so that I understand it better. But in this particular instance, it is a problem for me. Now I *know* that nothing I say will shake his own beliefs, and that I don't have that great an effect on him personally. But still, it sounds terribly rude to tell him that a way of thinking that helps him with his own grief is hogwash to me. I tried to gently suggest that it wasn't really as comforting an idea for me as it might be for many, but I'm not at my most articulate in session, and I didn't manage to convey the message properly I don't think.
So I finally withdrew emotionally, and I really just don't want to talk about my feelings regarding my father's health with him anymore because I just don't see how it will be productive. Yet feelings about my father's health are dominating my emotional life right now, if only to drive me to super rationality and lots of work productivity. Hmmm... Maybe it's better if I keep running from those feelings. :)
Now I really don't even want to go to session. If he doesn't bring it up, I don't suppose I will either. And since there was a weekend between our sessions, there's less of a chance that he'll bring it up than if it was the Tues-Fri break.
It just makes me feel sort of alone. Although I must say, my husband has really stepped up to the plate here. He's seen my relationship with my father in action, and has a really good understanding of the ambivalent but strongly loving feelings I have towards him. He's doing a great job of mixing humor and compassion to help me out.
Posted by AuntieMel on August 3, 2004, at 11:25:50
In reply to Psychobabble, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 10:43:28
I sure do understand the conflicted feelings. You and your dad are close, but you also have seen him be cruel (your words) to others.
If this same situation came up in a friendship (or here on babble) it would be less conflicting. You would rally around those who were hurt without thinking twice. [I've seen it here, so don't try to say you wouldn't;)]
But this isn't a friendship or babble and it involves people you love and people that make you the you that you are. So the feeling of being pulled in two directions is magnified exponentially. A tough feeling to go through, much less explain to anyone else. I'd say it's durn impossible to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it or seen it first hand.
I understand on a logical level what he's saying about feeling horrible, but on an emotional level horrible is horrible and it's hard to feel good about it.
Can you come up with another topic to talk about in your session in case this comes up and you don't feel able to discuss it? You might be able to steer the conversation away if you can.
Good luck. Keeping a grip is hard enough when someone close is in poor health and much tougher when feelings are conflicted. I know.
Posted by lucy stone on August 3, 2004, at 11:37:03
In reply to Psychobabble, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 10:43:28
I don't think it is terribly rude for you to tell him that a way of thinking that helped him does not help you. You have know him for a long time and he should be able to hear you tell him that something he is doing is not helpful. Do you have a handle on what would help you to hear? You say you are terrified of losing your dad and that is a perfectly understandable feeling. Maybe you could tell him that nothing about your grief feels good to you right now. Do you want to explore your feelings about this with your T in order for you to understand them better? If you can explore with him you will both get better understanding. Of course, you may not want to do this, but it you don't discuss it with him it can get to be the elephant in the room, something you both know is there but is not being talked about. My T says that when you are discussing something that creates anxiety, the thing that causes the most anxiety is the thing not being talked about. On a last note, let me say that I feel for you in you sadness and grief. I lost my mother years ago but I remember the pain. Losing a parent is very, very hard.
> Now I *know* that nothing I say will shake his own beliefs, and that I don't have that great an effect on him personally. But still, it sounds terribly rude to tell him that a way of thinking that helps him with his own grief is hogwash to me. I tried to gently suggest that it wasn't really as comforting an idea for me as it might be for many, but I'm not at my most articulate in session, and I didn't manage to convey the message properly I don't think.
>
>
Posted by vwoolf on August 3, 2004, at 11:54:16
In reply to Re: Psychobabble, posted by lucy stone on August 3, 2004, at 11:37:03
May I make a suggestion that others have made to me, which I have found very helpful at difficult moments with my therapist. Print out your message and let him read it. That way he will know what the problem is, without your needing to get into deep discussions around it since you specify clearly that you don't want to, with perfectly adequate reasons. He may be slightly hurt, but that's part of what you pay him for, after all.
Posted by daisym on August 3, 2004, at 13:09:23
In reply to Psychobabble, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 10:43:28
Dinah,
I'm sorry about your dad. Watching someone struggle with health problems is tough. I think it sets up a conflict all in itself -- wanting their pain to end yet not wanting to lose them.
I don't think there is anything anyone can say that will make this any less horrible. No matter how many times we tell ourselves, "they are in a better place" or "I was lucky to have them as long as I did" it doesn't make us miss them less. And we can miss parts of them, and not others.
It sounds to me like the rational side of you wants to explore the conflicting feelings you have about your dad and perhaps get a handle on them. The adult recognizes that everyone deals with grief differently and your therapist is trying to help you "get ready." I don't think this is possible. I think you simply recognize that these conflicting feelings exist and probably always will.
The little kid part of you is just totally sad about losing her daddy. She needs comfort and doesn't care one twit that feeling horrible means anything. I suspect that the grief and terror she feels is part of the shut down. It is too much to think about for her.
Like anything else in therapy, I think you need to talk about how alone you feel. I believe you will need support around this, I'm really glad your hubby is stepping up. But I think you will need to find a way to get support from your therapist too. Because with your therapist you can be really sad one day, be tired of all the medical crud another, complain about how your mother is handling things, and continue to flip/flop your emotions as you go through this without apologizing or explaining. You don't have to be brave or accepting or even nice about what is happening when you are with your therapist.
(((Dinah)))
I know how hard this is. Believe me, I do. I find myself holding back in therapy sometimes because I want to complain about my husband and it occurs to me that I'm not the one in pain, I'm not sick, etc. I wonder what my therapist must think of this unsympathetic, cold-hearted person. Or, I think I'm not presenting a balanced side of things. One of my favorite things my therapist does is say, "screw balanced for now. Complain away! It's therapeutic."
I have no idea if this is helpful or not. It is such a painful process. I don't have any wise words, just a shoulder if you need it.
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 19:37:14
In reply to Re: Psychobabble, posted by lucy stone on August 3, 2004, at 11:37:03
I think I agree with you re. disclosure, and as usual, I wasn't able to keep what was on my mind from him. I mostly sidestepped my opinion of his words, but I pointed out that it felt like he was trying to fix everything point by point instead of listening to what I was trying to tell him overall.
He apologized and today he listened almost exclusively. I'm hard to please. :) I found it frustrating, because I'm used to more interaction as opposed to a monologue. But he did mirror back a few things that sounded on target, so I think he got what I was saying.
I wonder if all his clients constantly critique his technique...
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 19:45:31
In reply to Re: Psychobabble, posted by AuntieMel on August 3, 2004, at 11:25:50
It *is* a lot harder when it's family. I fall back into the old patterns that work with him rather than tell him outright that I think he's being less than kind. Gentle suggestions, pointing out the other person's point of view, etc.
My therapist was probing today to see if there were areas where I needed to forgive my father or if there was unfinished business. I can't really think of anything offhand, but maybe if I give it thought it might help the conflictedness of my feelings.
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 19:48:51
In reply to Re: Psychobabble, posted by vwoolf on August 3, 2004, at 11:54:16
I know that it's not my job to protect him from any feelings about his own loss that my situation brings up. But it's hard to apply that to a real life situation. He helped today by not bringing up his mother, but still, there's some sort of internal watchfulness to check out my words before they come out my mouth. It's just so deeply ingrained that the fact that he's my therapist and getting paid for this work is something that's hard to keep in mind.
Posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 19:53:23
In reply to Re: Psychobabble » Dinah, posted by daisym on August 3, 2004, at 13:09:23
I think you nailed it, Daisy. The rational side of me wants to explore the practicalities. And really wants to tackle the OCD that this whole thing has kicked up again. And maybe discuss my father's emotional state and how I can help him. Like I think it might make him feel better if I can arrange to bring him to mass. He quit going years ago because he doesn't like to go anywhere in a wheelchair.
But the emotional side of me just wants to wail that I don't want to lose my daddy!!! Who'll take care of me?
Posted by mair on August 3, 2004, at 21:50:30
In reply to Re: Psychobabble » Dinah, posted by daisym on August 3, 2004, at 13:09:23
Dinah - I'm sorry about your father; my father has also been in awful health lately although I've been withdrawing from him for years, so I don't think my feelings are probably as conflicted.
I can't imagine being able to say anything more on point or better than what daisy said so I guess I just endorse her sentiments.
Also just remember that your T always seems to come through in the clutch for you when you really let him know what you need.
Mair
Posted by Speaker on August 4, 2004, at 0:21:47
In reply to Psychobabble, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2004, at 10:43:28
Dinah,
I'm sorry to hear about your father's health decline. I too have recently suffered loss and found the psychobabble a little hard to take so I just shut up. No words a better than trite sayings even when they are correct. I know all that stuff I just want someone to care. It's been a while since I posted but I have thought of you often as you have helped me many time. Take good care of you...and blessings to you and your father. Keep us posted about his surgery.
Speaker
Posted by gardenergirl on August 4, 2004, at 7:27:00
In reply to Re: Psychobabble, posted by Speaker on August 4, 2004, at 0:21:47
Dinah,
I'm glad that your next session went better. I am keeping you and your father in my prayers.Take care,
gg
Posted by Dinah on August 4, 2004, at 11:03:10
In reply to Re: Psychobabble, posted by mair on August 3, 2004, at 21:50:30
He really does usually come through. I wish I knew what to tell him I need. :) I'm better at telling him what isn't useful.
I'm sorry about your father, Mair. I'm glad you've been able to do what's healthiest for you in terms of distance. I know a large part of my work in therapy was finding distance from my parents. But even so I know it must be difficult, I think that it is just plain difficult when the roles start to be reversed, never mind all the other feelings involved.
Posted by Dinah on August 4, 2004, at 11:06:23
In reply to Re: Psychobabble, posted by Speaker on August 4, 2004, at 0:21:47
Thank you, Speaker. It's really good to hear from you. I'm so sorry about your loss. I won't try to say anything positive about it. Loss just s*cks.
I'll let you know if when I hear anything, and hopefully it'll just be the chronic pancreatitis.
Posted by Dinah on August 4, 2004, at 11:07:23
In reply to Re: Psychobabble, posted by gardenergirl on August 4, 2004, at 7:27:00
I find I don't like him just listening, although it beats saying all the wrong things.
This is the end of the thread.
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