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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by Susan47 on July 29, 2004, at 11:01:35
In reply to For Susan (very long), posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 9:33:10
Oh, antigua,
what you've been through is just terrible.
If I were in your position, I would write a letter to the therapist who unreasonably shunned you. He needs to know what the consequences of his actions were. It is a therapist's job to *help*; not harm. To me, it sounds as he did a lot of harm. He should not get away with that, not without having to provide a reasonable explanation.
Here's a question: What does you long-term therapist say about his behaviour?
I'm really looking forward to your reply. The man sounds like an ....
Posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 11:20:58
In reply to For Susan (very long), posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 9:33:10
You can choose to ignore this, but I feel for you so deeply on this one -- it's so similar in many ways to what I experienced with the Therapist From The Black Lagoon, so I may be projecting my empathy for myself onto you. Whatever the root cause, I still feel for you.
That must be a terrible thing to experience.
Have you asked your long term therapist to look into it for you? Maybe request your chart from that CBT crowd and see if there's anything in there that could clarify it in her eyes, and then work with you to process your pain based on more complete information? That's pretty much what I've done about TTFTBL: I asked our marriage counselor to get a copy of my chart, to read it and see if she finds it accurate according to her acquaintance with me. I know she can't show it to me directly, and can't really even tell me what's in it, but at least someone I do trust will be in a position to "protect" me in some weird sense in my mind. Just knowing that she has the file now helps, even though she hadn't had a chance to read it when we saw her last.
Again, this hasn't had any practical result whatsoever -- BUT it has really, really relieved some of my distress, and it has made me feel safer and more protected somehow. Only you can decide if doing something similar might be helpful to you, but it is something to consider.
Best wishes.
Posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 12:10:49
In reply to Re: Scared to be honest about something with T, posted by JenStar on July 28, 2004, at 16:53:54
Thank you for the compliment. While I'm not a writer, I value good writing very highly. It means a lot to me that others think I do it well.
I'm very insecure about my writing, actually, so comments like yours have a remarkable amount of resonance for me. I know that the thought that, no matter how bad everything else in my life might be, JenStar thinks I write well will help buoy me up today, and probably tomorrow, too.
I have written a few things I'm pleased with, including a few essays published in one form or another over the years. I'd like to do more, and often try to get the motivation up to sustain the effort, but it's rarer and rarer as time goes by. Maybe compliments like yours will help boost me over the edge one day.
If I write well, by the way, it's from a combination of having read well, and from a deep and intuitive belief that language is an important element of our thinking. It's an expression of my interest in linguistics, sociology, psychology, and anthropology, but it's also just because words are such fascinating tools. If I say, "I feel hopeless", is the key concept the hopelessness? Or that I *feel* that sense? (<<gotta bring it back to psychology, right?)
Again, thank you. Reading your compliment really will provide some psychological sustanance for me, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 13:08:33
In reply to Question/suggestion -- unsolicited » antigua, posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 11:20:58
Thank you so much for that great idea. My "all or nothing" thinking had blocked me from thinking of any resolution.
I'll have to think about whether it would be worse to know what he wrote or not to ever know. Maybe I'll ask my T. Right now I feel he would corroborate my shame and humiliation. If I were stronger, though....
Now that I think about, in some ways it doesn't matter what he wrote. I thought he "got" me but he clearly didn't, and from some research I've done I think this has a lot more to do w/him than me. But he wouldn't be above placing the blame on me, and then I'm back to defending myself and being denied what I know to be the truth (as I was denied as a girl).
But thanks for the idea. I'll think about it some more. You gave me a sliver of hope!
antigua
Posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 13:18:05
In reply to Re: For Susan (very long), posted by Susan47 on July 29, 2004, at 11:01:35
Well, on to the next part. (I feel like I'm writing a bad made-for-tv movie).
I did write to him. I poured out my heart, how this was repeating my childhood trauma, yada, yada, yada, and asking why? My T called him repeatedly (she thinks his behavior was reprehensible and she confirmed that he clearly wanted to have nothing to do with me, which increased my shame. I'm sure she's right, though).
The response? Passive-aggressiveness all the way. We all played telephone tag for a few months and NEVER connected. I would return his empty call and he always called me back to leave a message. He never initiated a call, it was only to return mine AND NEVER TO ACTUALLY SPEAK TO ME. I swear, this guy must have known my daily schedule he was so accurate at missing me. I finally felt that I had been humilated enough. I wasn't going to beg anymore.
So nothing's resolved, except I felt like more of a fool for my violent reaction. It was an accurate reaction to my situation, but he waited me out and won.
anything else?
antigua
Posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 13:27:18
In reply to Thank you » JenStar, posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 12:10:49
Racer, you are a WONDERFUL writer and I should know. I'm an expert!:) I write, edit and teach writing and you would be horrified at how bad most people are at this skill. It's really interesting that so many babblers write well. I think there's a definite connection between the issues we are dealing with and our need to communicate them outward.
I never knew I wrote well until a college professor told me. Never entered my mind, although I've always enjoyed writing. I had zero self confidence. Now it's too hard if I'm writing for myself. It's too personal and there's something about putting it down on paper that makes it real. I don't keep a journal anymore, but I am working on a couple of pieces where I take the feelings and emotions that I need to express and put them outside of myself.
OK, now I'm nervous. You will scrutinize everything with a fine red pen...
best,
antigua
Posted by daisym on July 29, 2004, at 13:54:07
In reply to Re: Thank you » Racer, posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 13:27:18
Antigua, I've heard the story before but it still touches me. It makes me so sad that a helping professional could be so completely bad. Maybe it is a new reality show: When Therapists go bad..
I keep thinking maybe he, or his agency, got sanctioned and were no longer allowed to work with csa patients. I know someone on the BOD lost their therapist when this happened. I guess I want to believe there is a reason this man acted so badly. (and yes, that is totally left over from childhood...there MUST be a rational explanation to everything).
I love the way you write and I agree that Babblers all pretty much write well. It makes reading such a pleasure, even when the stories are painful.
Thank you for sharing. I think you are very brave.
D
Posted by AuntieMel on July 29, 2004, at 14:22:35
In reply to Re: For Susan (very long) » Susan47, posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 13:18:05
This guy is a couple of crayons shy of a box isn't he? Sounds like the wrong person getting paid for those sessions.
Remember, those are *your* files and you have a right to see them. Racer's idea of your therapist getting your file is a good one. You'll have to sign a release, and off goes the request. I don't think he's allowed to refuse another professional.
It's bound to help to get some closure on it. His behaviour was unprofessional to say the least. And he should be reported for that plus anything wrong he's put in your file (tho that's a he said/she said). Think of it as saving the next victim.
Posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 15:00:19
In reply to Re: your files » antigua, posted by AuntieMel on July 29, 2004, at 14:22:35
"Think of it as saving the next victim."
That's very hard to resist. I wish someone had saved me, but I guess I find myself now in a place where I could help someone else.
thanks,
antigua
Posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 15:35:36
In reply to Re: Question/suggestion -- unsolicited » Racer, posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 13:08:33
OK, I researched this as it applies in California -- since that's where I live -- and here's a brief summary of how it works here:
Patients over 18 have a legal right to access their medical records, with a few exceptions. First, a doctor can choose to summarize the records for a patient. Kinda takes the teeth out right there, doesn't it? Second, mental health records can be withheld if the clinician deems it to be in the patient's best interest, but still has to present the rationale behind that decision.
If mental health records are withheld from the patient, another clinician can still access those records on the patient's behalf. The requesting clinician is prohibited from providing access to the patient.
All that makes a certain amount of sense, since there really are a lot of people whose mental health records could be very damaging to them. I don't think you're one of those people in a general sense, but I do think that, considering the history involved, I would not encourage you to read those records yourself. That isn't what I was advocating when I made that suggestion.
What I wanted to suggest, though, still makes sense to me: if your therapist -- someone who has a personal distance from the situation -- could read this animatronic ape's records of your treatment, she might be able to help you gain insight into the situation and your reaction to it in the course of therapy. THAT I think would be a great outcome. If you live in a state with similar laws regarding medical records, that's all that could happen, legally, if she requested your files. You would be legally prohibited from seeing those files yourself. While there's an argument to be made that that limits your rights and liberties, it's for your own protection -- and in this case I think it really would protect you.
As for what might have happened, I think I'm reacting the way Daisy did: I'm trying to think of reasons for that sort of behavior on the part of a mental health professional. Now, I admit to a strong bias in my thinking: I've read your posts long enough to have formed an opinion of you, and the opinion I have formed is influencing my speculations on the situation.
I don't think you're delusional, so I can't imagine that you've totally misinterpreted the situation, nor do I think you're misrepresenting it here. I know you suffer depression and have a history of csa, so I think your interpretation probably focusses on the negative aspects. I know how I react to this sort of stress, so I'm extrapolating from that -- and I suspect that you've probably reacted to the situation, rather than responding to it, if you know what I mean? (That's what I do, anyway...)
And I don't think you're a malformed monster made up of psychopathological goop -- I think you are probably a lot like me, as I see myself. Smart, with skills, articulate, insecure, with a mix of good and bad traits, and with a core of self-confidence that can be very, very hard to access -- especially when faced with interpersonal stressors.
With all that, the only explanations I can come up with are all some variation on his total inability to identify the antigua we all know and respect; or something that's mostly unrelated to you; or he's someone who should be in intensive, court-ordered therapy himself to work on his pathological difficulty in dealing with women.
Hm.... I don't see anything in there that supports your thesis that you're the problem here...
Come to think of it, I don't see anything in your posts that makes me think you really believe you're the problem, either. I just see a lot of reaction to having been *told* so many times that you're the problem. (Yeah, OK: that's projection, too, since that's part of my own struggle. I was told that I was the problem, even when I didn't believe it. Since the only way to survive was to *pretend* that I believed it, I did internalize it to some degree. Maybe that's entirely off base with you, but you know that answer better than anyone else, and as long as you know, no one else has to.)
One last thing: thank you. I actually do know something about the quality of writing out there, and it saddens and angers me. The thought that a writing teacher approves of mine means a lot to me.
And I never read anyone's personal correspondence or posts on this board with any sort of mental red pencil. I'm so sensitive myself that I only offer criticism when asked, and I always try to emphasize the positive when I do. I believe that the purpose of language is to communicate, so if I feel that I understand what you're trying to express, I consider that a successful post. I do fall into the "Gotcha Grammarian" habits from time to time, but generally only when listening to politicians and political pundits :-D
Posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 20:07:33
In reply to Re: Question/suggestion -- unsolicited » antigua, posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 15:35:36
Have you read "Eats, Shoots and Leaves"?
antigua
Posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 21:07:42
In reply to Re: Question/suggestion -- unsolicited » Racer, posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 20:07:33
I'm reading "Going Nucular" right now!
Posted by Racer on July 30, 2004, at 1:10:17
In reply to Re: Question/suggestion -- unsolicited » Racer, posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 20:07:33
I'm loving it.
By the way, to bring this back in line with the purpose of this board, I'm going to tell you part of my reaction to this book.
That Therapist From The Black Lagoon experience shook my foundation to the core. I started doubting a lot of what I thought were my greatest strengths, because she kept attacking exactly those qualities. Now, I think I'm at least as smart as the average bear, and I think that I have a certain amount of self-awareness -- including a high degree of considered awareness of my worst points. And I have a pretty well developed ability to step outside myself to see how something might look to observers. I can see how some of what I consider my strengths might be misinterpreted as pathological posturing. (For instance, a few months ago, in the midst of a crisis period, I was invited to submit a paper to a conference totally unrelated to anything I really know much about -- it was a peer reviewed science conference. I can see how that would sound very unlikely to a therapist who doesn't know me, hasn't bothered to try to know me, and only knows that I am not a scientist. Well, what I didn't mention about it does explain a lot: it was a very small conference, the focus was on informal education of adolescents, and the head of the thing is one of my oldest and most treasured friends. Of course he'd invite me to submit something -- he knew how my interests would complement the purpose of the conference, he likes me and knew that I'd take it as a compliment, and he knew that I was very seriously depressed -- he probably hoped that the invitation would buoy me up a bit. From her point of view, though, it might not be terribly surprising to have her attribute it to self-aggrandizement and grandiosity -- and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. That argument could be made -- it would be wrong, and it would be skirting the edge of incompetence to form those conclusions without further supporting evidence, but the argument could be made.) At any rate, those responses from her really shook my foundations, because I do internalize them, and they do fuel my self-doubts, and they do mirror a lot of my own, internal self-criticisms.
In other words, I was not in great shape after that experience.
And the next therapist sure as [that place our ex-therapists might someday visit] didn't help matters any.
Slowly, though, I'm starting to even out again. I'm starting to trust some of my ideas more, although it's still pretty much limited to ideas, and I still have that whole intuitive/analytic thing going on. Many of the essays in Nunberg's book concern things that I have noticed and intuitively grasped, but been unable to explain or express. Reading such a compelling and engaging writer point out what I've been seeing, and then explain what I've felt but been unable to express, has been a very therapeutic experience for me. It's helping me build that confidence back up.
(OK, I want a lollipop for getting this from books about language to psychotherapy. And I want a red one!)
Posted by antigua on July 30, 2004, at 9:32:18
In reply to Oh, and... » antigua, posted by Racer on July 30, 2004, at 1:10:17
How about TWO red lollipops, one for you and one for me. We could enjoy them together and share GOOD therapy stories.
antigua
Posted by DaisyM on July 30, 2004, at 10:28:45
In reply to Re: Oh, and... » Racer, posted by antigua on July 30, 2004, at 9:32:18
pout, pout. I want one too. (Racer, you owe me, so you have to share. But I'd rather have green.)
Do you notice what types of books your therapist has on his/her shelf? It was fun to discover "The Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" in my therapist's office. Sorry, I looked up "git"...it wasn't in there.
I feel a writer's group forming. :)
Posted by antigua on July 30, 2004, at 11:29:34
In reply to Re: Oh, and... » antigua, posted by DaisyM on July 30, 2004, at 10:28:45
Daisy, we will get a green one for you!
On the more serious side, I'm having a very tough week. I've been great for about two months or so, but on Monday it all just feel apart. I know that I'm getting closer to my "feelings" about what happened, rather than just intellectulazing and "talking" about them. It seems like such a horrendously long process.
This time, though, it has scared me more because I fell so very, very quickly. I really don't know what triggered it (it was before EMDR this week, which only made it worse) but I just have to hold on to "this too shall pass." It sure isn't easy, though.
It didn't help that my T has been away for several weeks and she missed our appt. this week. I finally connected w/her and she did make me feel better, but not enough to kill the demons.
I know you've had a tough week too, but it's almost over now...
best,
antigua
Posted by AuntieMel on July 30, 2004, at 15:10:45
In reply to Re: Question/suggestion -- unsolicited » Racer, posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 20:07:33
I'm reading it in fits and starts. I heard about it way before it was available here and got it the day it came out. Funny! If you like disecting langrage, that is.
Might want to take a peek at the link I put on social about the new jargon.
Posted by daisym on July 30, 2004, at 16:15:55
In reply to Re: Oh, and... » DaisyM, posted by antigua on July 30, 2004, at 11:29:34
Antigua,
I'm sorry things have gone south. My therapist tells me I go south fast now because I'm so open and raw. It doesn't take as long for stressers or hurtful things to make their way inside to be felt. I also think those little kids inside tantrum and tell us when they are lonely and sad. YOU may have figured out how to be OK with your therapist gone, but your younger selves are upset and gosh darn it, they miss their "mommy!" Something may be upsetting to one of them, and you may not realize what it is yet.
What you descibe is exactly what happens to me. I can keep it together only so long without touching base. I really do think it is just like kids who do this. They keep it together until they have a safe person around and then they let themselves feel how upset they are about everything that has gone wrong in the past 8 hours (or whatever). That's why so many start crying the minute they spot a parent picking them up. (Anyone feel like crying the minute you enter the therapy office?) I felt a little like that yesterday. I had to hold it together because I was away from home, things didn't go as well as I'd liked, and then I had a big bomb dropped on me yesterday morning. My therapist had to give me the whole soothing speech about how I didn't have to handle it all alone, he was here for me, etc. etc. I cried, but they were tears of relief to be back in my safe place.
I hope you find a way to soothe yourself. Lollipops are a good start. Ice cream works too.
Posted by Susan47 on July 30, 2004, at 17:30:04
In reply to For Susan (very long), posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 9:33:10
Antigua,
I have a first question, (plus more) if you have the time and inclination to answer it. I'm sure I've already shown my ignorance, but here it is again anyways; what's "csa"? "PTSD" I understand perfectly.
Posted by Dinah on July 30, 2004, at 19:20:13
In reply to For Susan (very long), posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 9:33:10
You are completely right. No *responsible* therapist would have handled a referral in this manner. I can't even imagine why he wouldn't have collaborated with your therapist to help you understand and process what happened. I am glad you recognize (at least intellectually) that what *he* did was shameful, not anything you did.
But please do believe that there are good and decent men in authority out there. My therapist might reject the "authority" description a bit, but he is a good and decent man.
Posted by Dinah on July 30, 2004, at 19:56:17
In reply to Re: Oh, and... » antigua, posted by daisym on July 30, 2004, at 16:15:55
Oh, Daisy. I *so* do that too. And it always reminded me of the kids being picked up at preschool. I manage to be all calm and rational and oooh, I don't care about that at all. Then *crash* out come my real feelings in therapy. :)
Posted by antigua on July 31, 2004, at 11:00:50
In reply to For antigua, posted by Susan47 on July 30, 2004, at 17:30:04
Childhood sexual abuse
You can keep asking,
antigua
Posted by Susan47 on July 31, 2004, at 11:17:33
In reply to Re: For Susan (very long) » Susan47, posted by antigua on July 29, 2004, at 13:18:05
...that therapist sounds like a schmuck. I get so upset when I hear stories like this. I always felt my therapist was passive/agressive as well. I wonder what these types of people think they're accomplishing with their behaviour.
Yesterday a good friend of mine suggested that my last therapist dropped me because I was too much of a hassle for him.. Too much hassle. $130 per hour, how many clients per week, and too much hassle? But you know something, I can believe it.
I don't necessarily think all therapists are themselves (a) emotionally healthy, and (b) able to confront issues head-on.
This T you're talking about, who let you go, seems to be in hiding from you. He *must* be aware that his actions were damaging. What an......... I'm so glad I'm not his wife. Can you imagine what it's like for *her*? She has to LIVE with that person!!!
Posted by antigua on July 31, 2004, at 14:09:29
In reply to Antigua,, posted by Susan47 on July 31, 2004, at 11:17:33
actually, I'm pretty certain he's gay
antigua
Posted by JenStar on July 31, 2004, at 14:55:32
In reply to Thank you » JenStar, posted by Racer on July 29, 2004, at 12:10:49
That's very cool, that you've published some essays. congrats on that!
I too love to analyze words, think about linguistics, etc. it's fun. it's nice to meet someone else who does that!
anyway, have a fun (and linguistically interesting) weekend.
take care! (you great writer, you!)
JenStar
> Thank you for the compliment. While I'm not a writer, I value good writing very highly. It means a lot to me that others think I do it well.
>
> I'm very insecure about my writing, actually, so comments like yours have a remarkable amount of resonance for me. I know that the thought that, no matter how bad everything else in my life might be, JenStar thinks I write well will help buoy me up today, and probably tomorrow, too.
>
> I have written a few things I'm pleased with, including a few essays published in one form or another over the years. I'd like to do more, and often try to get the motivation up to sustain the effort, but it's rarer and rarer as time goes by. Maybe compliments like yours will help boost me over the edge one day.
>
> If I write well, by the way, it's from a combination of having read well, and from a deep and intuitive belief that language is an important element of our thinking. It's an expression of my interest in linguistics, sociology, psychology, and anthropology, but it's also just because words are such fascinating tools. If I say, "I feel hopeless", is the key concept the hopelessness? Or that I *feel* that sense? (<<gotta bring it back to psychology, right?)
>
> Again, thank you. Reading your compliment really will provide some psychological sustanance for me, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
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