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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by vwoolf on July 28, 2004, at 9:40:28
I thought I should share an insight I reached a few days ago. I had been writing to Babble about whether to stay in therapy with my therapist or to move to my psychiatrist for whom I felt overwhelmingly strong feelings. I took the posts and showed them to my therapist, and suddenly I realised what I had been saying.
I had written the following:
“After two or three days of respite, during which time I thought I had managed to come to terms with my transference issues and had opted to try and forget about the problem, all my desperate longings for my Pdoc have returned in full strength. Once again I feel completely swamped by yearning.
“I know that for many this feeling is mixed with romantic and sexual longings, but I don’t think this is so in my case. At least, I don’t think it is. I have imagined him naked with an erection, but not in a sexual way – it’s more like a sense of him being completely open. The feeling is rather of wanting to be contained emotionally by him – a very small place from when I was a little girl. It is a feeling of devastating loneliness, which he seems to be able to dissipate when I am near him. I don’t dream of knowing him outside therapy at all, or wanting to be in any way involved in his life – I just want to know that my space with him is safe. I feel vulnerable and hurt knowing I can’t see him. So why do I feel so guilty about this?”It was definitely a place from when I was very little. Some history - my mother was very uncaring towards me as a child and neglected me emotionally. My father gave me the love and admiration I needed, but at a price. He wanted sexual pleasure in return. What I was writing about in my post was the desperate feeling of loneliness I felt, and the need to attract my father physically to free myself of that despair and get the love I so desperately wanted. I was transfering this need onto my Pdoc, and would have done anything to attract and seduce him to take away the pain. Even though I felt it was not sexual, my image of his nakedness and erection clearly show that I was wanting him to be attracted, even sexually. This is something I have repeated on several occasions in my life, and has led me to being sexually molested by a psychiatrist who did not have the understanding to see that I was reliving my pain and abandonment in trying to seduce him, or the integrity to stop me from hurting myself again.
Understanding this has helped me moved forward in my choices. I am now determined to stay in therapy with my female T, since I think that the worst pain I suffer is from my mother’s neglect, rather than my father’s incestuous behaviour. I am sure I will still feel yearnings for my pdoc from time to time, but I think I will be able to control them better now that I have some understanding of what they mean to me. I think I will now be able to start trusting my T more, after seeing how determinedly she has stayed with me through all this violent turmoil. Thanks to those of you who replied to my messages with sound, careful advice. It is precious insight I have gained.
Posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 11:31:46
In reply to Sharing insight, posted by vwoolf on July 28, 2004, at 9:40:28
Good work.
I didn't realize a pdoc had taken sexual advantage of you.
That's terrible.
I'm glad you're working things through, you're awesome!
Posted by pegasus on July 28, 2004, at 12:57:07
In reply to Sharing insight, posted by vwoolf on July 28, 2004, at 9:40:28
Wow, what a great insight! And what strength you have to face it by staying with your female therapist to work it through. I'm am awed by your work here. If you keep it up, I think this should be a really healing experience. Good, good luck with this.
pegasus
Posted by Racer on July 28, 2004, at 13:03:15
In reply to Re: Sharing insight, posted by Susan47 on July 28, 2004, at 11:31:46
No wonder you felt some connection to my response above -- same sort of issue. The incestuous abuse was traumatic, no doubt about that, but it was really my mother's response to it, her failure to protect me, being told that *I* had to protect *her*, that caused the real problems. And the only real difference on the therapist front is that I've always insisted on a woman, because I know that a man would just bring up a lot of the sexual stuff in ways that would interfere with any good that could come of it.
It always blows me away that there is so much common ground around these things. Maybe it helps just knowing that it really isn't "just me", that others who have experienced such things also feel so many of the same things I was always told were the "wrong" things.
Congratulations! Did you tell your therapist about this insight? Was she pleased? Or, let me ask that a different way, did she tell you how pleased she was and how proud she was of you? I'm sure she was both pleased and proud, even if she didn't tell you directly. Whoohoo! Party for Ms Woolf!
Posted by Poet on July 28, 2004, at 14:11:42
In reply to Sharing insight, posted by vwoolf on July 28, 2004, at 9:40:28
Hi vwoolf,
Incredible insight, thank you for sharing it, and your pain and most importantly your progress.
Poet
Posted by JenStar on July 28, 2004, at 20:18:36
In reply to Sharing insight, posted by vwoolf on July 28, 2004, at 9:40:28
wow. congratulations on being so honest with yourself and for making such an important decision. I'm impressed with your powers of self-analysis. You're an inspiration! I will try to be as honest with myself as you have been to yourself.
thank you for sharing your experience.
JenStar
Posted by Ilene on July 28, 2004, at 20:33:48
In reply to Re: Sharing insight right back at you, posted by Racer on July 28, 2004, at 13:03:15
> Congratulations! Did you tell your therapist about this insight? Was she pleased? Or, let me ask that a different way, did she tell you how pleased she was and how proud she was of you? I'm sure she was both pleased and proud, even if she didn't tell you directly. Whoohoo! Party for Ms Woolf!
I'm trying to think of a way to phrase this without rubbing anyone the wrong way--but I don't think I would want a therapist to be proud of me. It seems somehow patronizing. (I think that is because I desperately need to be regarded as an equal.)
Remember, I'm something of a therapy outsider.
Posted by Dinah on July 30, 2004, at 19:43:22
In reply to Re: Sharing insight right back at you » Racer, posted by Ilene on July 28, 2004, at 20:33:48
Maybe proud for me is a better way of putting it? I'm proud of my husband when he responds calmly to bad driving. That doesn't mean I feel responsible for his temper. It means I realize that it's a challenge for him to maintain his cool under those circumstances, and I'm pleased that he was able to do it. I'm proud *for* him, even though I don't take credit for any of it.
I actually try to be proud *for* my son, too, rather than proud *of* him. That way I don't invest too much of my ego in his behavior.
Posted by shortelise on July 30, 2004, at 20:59:57
In reply to Sharing insight, posted by vwoolf on July 28, 2004, at 9:40:28
Brilliant!
Don't you just love the moments when things fall into place - not that this happens by itself - it is work!
Shorte
Posted by LG04 on August 1, 2004, at 13:40:57
In reply to Sharing insight, posted by vwoolf on July 28, 2004, at 9:40:28
Thank you so much for sharing your insight. I have also thought of my female therapist in a sexual way, but never had the courage to tell her and probably never will since we are coming to a termination of sorts. I know that I am not sexually attracted to her, I understood it as a kind of longing, because I have had these sexual thoughts about everyone who I have ever felt strong transference towards. It's wanting to be as close to them as possible, of feeling the most safe as I possibly can, it's an emotional holding thing that is represented sexually. And because I was molested, I think it also seems to be the only way to get close. The difference between sex and intimacy can be so confusing for me.
Something that I also recognize is that when I am feeling less transference towards the person, then I don't feel the sexual thing. Your insight was really, really validating for me.
Also I want to say that the various posts about the most traumatic part of being sexually abused is that your moms didn't protect you and weren't there...that is also extremely validating for me. I also think that it "makes sense" that my dad's abuse of me would be the worst part, but it's not. It's always that my mom was, and still is, in complete denial. It is so incredibly painful for me. So thank you for validating that feeling also.
I applaud your courage in sticking with your female therapist. I can imagine it was a very difficult decision and you really gave yourself the time and space to go through a painful process...and to come to a decision. Way to go!
LG
Posted by vwoolf on August 2, 2004, at 13:48:26
In reply to Re: Sharing insight, posted by LG04 on August 1, 2004, at 13:40:57
Thanks LG for your kindness and encouragement. I am glad that my experience touched some cords for you and validated your feelings. I must be honest, while I was writing I thought of you, Susan and Racer, as well as others whose names I don't remember, because all of you seem to be going through difficulties that have a lot in common with mine. It helps me to know that in some way what I am going through can be a shared experience. This is such a lonely place to be otherwise.
I am still holding to my commitment to my therapist, but I have wept bitter tears most days, and dreamed of death and bereavement most nights. My posts to Babble were very triumphant – the reality has been less so. Yet in some strange way I feel as if I have moved forward. I have started to feel grief (as in uncontrollable sobbing grief) over my mother’s neglect, as well as anger towards her. It is quite difficult to manage my anger, as I still see her every day.
I have started thinking about my own death as well, and mourning the time and opportunities I have wasted living through other people’s needs . This is very hard, as the time and opportunities will never come back. I am older than most people on this board (I think), and I feel as if I don’t have very much time to actually live a life that is truly my own. I am still trying to work out what that means, but I think it would be making my own decisions and choices and having the courage to stay with them and carry through with them as long as they make sense to me. Sort of like the decision over my therapist. And having the courage to abandon them when they are wrong.
What would you do differently if you could live your life over again? I would become a doctor, I know. I would write and publish stories, and maybe play the saxophone. I would sculpt in wood – I already do, but I would spend much more time doing so. Perhaps there is still time to achieve some of these.
Posted by shortelise on August 2, 2004, at 14:27:28
In reply to Re: Sharing insight, posted by vwoolf on August 2, 2004, at 13:48:26
I am 49, not young, not old, and also feel that I lost so many oppotunities because of my childhood, because of the limitations I put on myself because of it. How I wish I had dealt with all of this crap when I was a teen - I had the opportunity but didn't have the ... understanding, the guidance, no one approached me as I needed to be approoached... It's my "fault" I am not blaming, I know that I am also responsible ... and I regret, I mourn.
I would have been a flying star.
Shorte
Posted by vwoolf on August 2, 2004, at 15:08:03
In reply to age, posted by shortelise on August 2, 2004, at 14:27:28
Shorte, I sure you would have been a shooting star. I am also sure you can still be. It is not your fault that you couldn't deal with these problems when you were younger, so don't punish yourself for that. Youth is great but it has all sorts of limitations. I did have someone who realised I needed help, but I couldn't take advantage of it. I felt so threatened that I became almost catatonic.
It is important, I think, to mourn what is lost. But I think it is also important to look at what is still possible. What would you like to have done with your life? Is it really too late for everything?
I think this is such an important question, for all of us who have lost so much.
A big hug.
Posted by LG04 on August 2, 2004, at 15:13:06
In reply to Re: Sharing insight, posted by vwoolf on August 2, 2004, at 13:48:26
Hi Vwoolf, your post was very moving in its honesty and self-reflection. I have been there and am still there, with the uncontrolled crying and grief over a neglectful mother. It's excruciatingly painful. The other day I wished my mom were dead and I meant it. I think it's grief that is necessary to feel, since it's inside of us. But it sucks.
I wanted to address a specific issue you mentioned...I too am dealing with huge anger issues at my mom while seeing her often, and it's soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hard. it's also new for me because i am just now moving back after 3 years and i didn't realize how difficult it would be with my mom. and i wonder if it's worth it, or if it will serve me in the long run to work thru these mom issues while in a real-time relationship with her. in therapy in israel, my mom hardly ever came up (except thru transference of course), but not in real time. in some ways, i think i am pulled back here in order to work these issues through. could that be? what do others think? will i reach a level of growth and maturity and a higher degree of resolution by working on a real relationship with my mom, rather than speaking to her briefly once a week on the phone from a foreign country? (that felt a heck of a lot safer...but i'm not sure it helped me resolve any of my issues with her. i think i did some "resolving" thru the re-parenting that my therapist did for me. but i think there are some things that my mom will continue to bring up in me until i deal with it directly.) OR, is it okay to avoid her for the rest of my life? would that hurt me or is that good for me?
my therapist in israel said she thinks that perhaps i have to deal with my relationship with my mom while living in the same city as her, to work thru things as best as i can and set boundaries, etc., and then i can be more resolved with it and more free to make whatever choices i want to make for myself (especially regarding where to live).
but a part of me isn't so sure. do we have to deal directly with toxic people? if she was a friend, i would have left the relationship long ago. okay, she is not a friend, she is my mom...but still, it's such a stressful, painful relationship for me. Though she is admittedly trying and has grown and she is willing to keep trying, i know she loves me, in however limited a way -- she is just so emotionally incapable of providing what i need/want from her. And she will never acknowledge the incest that went on for 14 years of my life under her nose.
What do others think?
by the way, i am not interested (in this point) in therapy with her. it's too overwhelming for me, and anyway, i feel certain she wouldn't agree to it. she hates therapy and thinks that therapists are the one who gave me "false memory syndrome." her denial is very very deep.
Posted by starlight on August 2, 2004, at 17:04:04
In reply to Sharing insight, posted by vwoolf on July 28, 2004, at 9:40:28
I think it's great you have a female therapist. Even for the residual issues you have with the way your father treated you and your feelings towards men. Working with a female takes away the whole male issue and enables you to free up mind space to hopefully do better work. I'm sorry that your other Pdoc took advantage of your vulnerabilities, but congratulate you for going to a woman!
starlight
Posted by starlight on August 2, 2004, at 17:20:29
In reply to Real time relationships, posted by LG04 on August 2, 2004, at 15:13:06
I think it can be very gratifying for you when you set the boundaries and the parameters of your relationship with your mother.
Only return her calls if you want to, only see her when you want to, only talk to her if she treats you well. It's very empowering and will show her that this relationship is going to exist on your terms. Release any expectations of how you think she will or should respond and just see how it goes.
My father was very abusive and my mother turned the other cheek when it happened and I was always terrified of my father - even into my early twenties. One Christmas Eve, with a table full of guests including my husband (then boyfriend) he launched into me like I was 5 years old, almost made me piss my pants (like he used to!).
It was awful, totally embarassing, scary - brought up all those emotions that I had as a child all over again. We were out of there - my husband said he wanted to hit him and that he wasn't going to stay in our house a minute longer. I went with him. We stayed in a hotel. The next morning my mother called us and asked us if we were coming over to open presents and since he was still there, it was a resounding no. Well, I needed to go back to pick up our clothes and when I came back to the house, he confronted me again and this time I fought back. I screamed at him and told him how much I hated him for being such a violent and mean person - people down the street could hear him screaming, but I stood my ground.
Then to top it off, I cut him off completely for six months. Refused to have any contact with him at all, he was dead to me. And man, he came crawling back. He knows better than to test me anymore cause I'm not afraid and would be perfectly fine to cut him out of my life entirely and that scares him. It's great for me though, because finally - after all these years, I'm in control of this relationship and it makes a big difference.
Good luck,
starlight
Posted by vwoolf on August 3, 2004, at 12:08:03
In reply to Real time relationships, posted by LG04 on August 2, 2004, at 15:13:06
There are so many parallels between our lives! I have also always had major mom issues, even though it has taken me most of my life to realise it. As an adult every time I have lived near home I have suffered from depressions and emotional difficulties. While I lived, worked and studied abroad, I managed to create a reasonably "normal" life for myself, coping very successfully with a profession, friends and family, only to collapse again when I came home. So I have spent more than half my life in Europe. Yet I have always felt drawn to come back, as if to unfinished business. I hope this time I will manage to complete the task. I don't know if what I have done has been for the best - I have really only followed impulses. Perhaps I should have stayed away?
Posted by Susan47 on August 3, 2004, at 13:25:19
In reply to Re: Sharing insight, posted by vwoolf on August 2, 2004, at 13:48:26
I related to what you have to say, and thank you so much for thinking of me.
I feel quite old as well, I have a grown child and two still in the process.
I've had one career and am preparing myself for a different field now. I feel hopeful now, but there was a time when I felt very sad about missed opportunities and anger that I had wasted so much time trying to please others. And I never could anyway. I only made myself feel inadequate. Now I realize that I'm anything BUT inadequate, actually I can see myself clearly for the first time and it's been a revelation. IF I had been able to appreciate myself thirty years ago, how different my life would have been.
I also would have been a physician. Not a therapist, as I've said somewhere else here in the past... A surgeon.
vwoolf, don't spend too much time grieving, although it is important to do that in order to clear the screen. Just know when to let go and live today.
You're in my thoughts.
Posted by Susan47 on August 3, 2004, at 13:26:47
In reply to Re: Sharing insight, posted by vwoolf on August 2, 2004, at 13:48:26
I had to stop seeing my parents, first my father and now, because she's his biggest cheerleader, now my mother.
It doesn't hurt as much as it did, once I let go of feeling responsible for them.
Posted by starlight on August 3, 2004, at 14:55:49
In reply to Re: Real time relationships, posted by vwoolf on August 3, 2004, at 12:08:03
I think there comes a time when you have to wrap up the unfinished business. You can't run forever - or you can and then wonder if it could have been different. But you also have to be prepared for any type of response, including one that my hurt you more. It's so hard because when we're around our parents or siblings we tend to fall right back into our old patterns that were established in childhood.
It helped me so much to have my husband support me in standing up to my father, even moreso to hear my husband say that my father's behavior was completely unacceptable and totally abusive. The tendency for us is to rationalize it by saying we deserved it or to hope it will go away. But as long as they have power over you, as long as you're the scapegoat, that pattern will continue.
I joined the military at 17 to get out of my abusive house. Parents tried to talk me into staying and going to community college (I wanted to go to a 4 year school away, but they said I was too immature). They even offered me a car. But I already knew that if I stayed in the same situation, I would continue to be the scapegoat for his anger, and that she would continue to play like she didn't know or like it wasn't that bad. Which is why you do better when you're away.
You need a good friend to help support you if you decide to call her on her behavior. It felt so good to finally take a stand, to be angry at him and scream and yell back at him and tell him how awful a person he was. Actually, that was one of the most theraputic events in my life.
I was happy with the ultimate outcome, to see him realize that his gig was up.
starlight
Posted by Susan47 on August 3, 2004, at 18:55:42
In reply to Re: Real time relationships, posted by starlight on August 3, 2004, at 14:55:49
I like what you had to say, starlight. I've never approached my father about his abuse (which continues verbally to this day, of course) but I always wonder what will happen if I'm there at his deathbed, and I haven't approached him about it yet. I don't want his death to be more unpleasant that anybody else's, so maybe I should just talk to him now.
Maybe I need to think about this some more.
Thanks for reading.
Posted by starlight on August 4, 2004, at 14:17:16
In reply to Re: Real time relationships, posted by Susan47 on August 3, 2004, at 18:55:42
Sometimes you've got to fight fire with FIRE!!!
This is the end of the thread.
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