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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by starlight on July 22, 2004, at 18:14:34
In reply to For Steelmagnolia, posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 0:08:34
This seems like a hard topic to tease out, on one hand the therapist is taking advantage of the patient, but on the other isn't the patient to a certain extent taking advantage of the doc as well? Especially if you know that he would probably go for it? Is it much different than a boss/secretary or a teacher/student relationship (at an appropriate age)? Here's a man who hears your worst problems, who hears you speak with a level of honesty that you likely reserve for your appointments, and if he falls in love with you or feels really attracted to you, it seems like it would be tempting to cross that boundary. And then if the patient approaches him and is open to it, that would be even more difficult if he wants you to start with.
We're all stuck in the human condition and sexuality is a huge part of that. It's unethical and it seems wrong, but at the same time it seems human and understandable.
It's kind of like the catholic priest thing. They're supposed to remain celibate. But celibacy is basically denying your own humanity and I think it can lead to abberant behavior. They're people with the same urges as everyone else, but with the burden of a vow that denies their most base urges, they're more likely to act out in secret.
It just seems understandable to me. Maybe I have a hard time with boundaries! ;)
starlight
Posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 18:58:18
In reply to Re: For Steelmagnolia, posted by starlight on July 22, 2004, at 18:14:34
> This seems like a hard topic to tease out, on one hand the therapist is taking advantage of the patient, but on the other isn't the patient to a certain extent taking advantage of the doc as well?
To the extent that a patient is getting his/her needs met, I suppose you could say s/he is "taking advantage". In the real definition of a patient in therapy, though, neediness is part of the equation and therefore how could s/he possibly be taking advantage of anyone?
Doesn't that require that the T be a rather weak-willed person?
Posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:04:27
In reply to Re: For Steelmagnolia, posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 18:58:18
Probably everyone has some difficulty with boundaries.
I was so tempted to sexually tease my T, but I never did, and I'm glad of that. I see in hindsight though, that that would've been me meeting my needs. And at the time that would have been okay because *I* was the *patient*.
I'm glad I'm not a T; I really don't know how they manage. They must have incredible dreams!
Posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:25:53
In reply to For Starlight(last message for you too), posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:04:27
...but I just realized that there's a difference between "wanting" somone and truly being in love. A T should definitely know the difference. If a T is in love, s/he has to do the right thing by the person they're in love with. I know it's idealistic, but that's what we try to build a good personality on, isn't it? In my definition, doing the right thing would be difficult but rewarding. It would mean making good choices. Having an affair with a client is not a good choice, and therefore not the right thing to do. Making a choice to be with the client in a real relationship which isn't threatened by anything, that's a good choice. Deciding to stay with your family and be honest with your client about that is a good choice.
I think as patients, or clients, we need to realize that we also deserve good things in our life. And we deserve much more than just an affair with our T.
Which is why I had to stop seeing mine; I wanted him too much.
I think if a T really wants a patient that way, he better start working on himself and his life.
Thanks for reading my psychobabble.
Posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:42:03
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 20:54:43
> Again I want to thank you all for your wonderful input. It is very hard to let go. I am curious, for all of you that say you are in love with your therapist... if the opportunity arose, would you be strong enough to say "no", especially when this is the one person who you are closest to and have developed deep feelings for over time.I know it is difficult when I read all of your writings, I know how difficult and helpless it feels to want something/someone so bad yet you dont have any control. Could you put yourself in my shoes? What would that be like for you? I dont see our affair as an ultimate betrayal, because I love him and this is what I wanted. I just want him in my life, whatever that may be. We still do good work in therapy, its my feelings outside of that when I am not with him that hurts-always did. He taught me alot about love, about loving myself, about trusting someone when I am most vulnerable...that not all men are going to abuse me.... I dont mean to be contradictory to the responses I have received from so many of you. I know that you are all right in what you say, it is just going to be difficult to cut loose. I have noone else but him to talk to about this because he is married and I am not out to ruin his carreer because he loves me and is caught in this love triangle. I know it will end, we cant keep on like this, we both know it. I would hope then that we could go back to the way things were theraputically, he has given me more hope and met more of my psychological needs than anyone I have ever worked with in the past (which has been alot).Noone else would hold me when I cried and wipe my face. Noone else would kiss the scars I have all over my body that makes me ashamed. Noone else has ever known me so intimately on a psychological level. He has the most soothing voice and it reassures me that everything is going to be alright. Please do not look at this situation as being all bad. There is a middle ground if you could see what I am saying. The sex will stop eventually, we discuss it all the time. Part of the reason I write you is to let you know that this sort of thing does happen. Be careful what you wish for. Our relationship though, has made me want to be a better person, and I realize now that I am capable of loving someone else and am ready to search out a relationship with someone. I have definately grown. I know longer want to be just someones occassional sex thing for there pleasure. I know what it is like now to make love and i want more of that in a relationship. He has taught me alot, in all ways. Please do not get frustrated with me, but try to see the whole situation all the way through. Please keep responding, I look forward to all of your input. :)
Jadah said in this post that her T has made her want to be a better person. I wonder if she has made *him* want to be a *better* person. Hmm.
I'm really grateful to Jadah. She was very brave to share this with everyone.
Posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 10:14:27
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:42:03
Sorry, I was wrong. Jadah actually said that her *relationship* with her therapist made her want to be a better person.
Was she talking about her sexual relationship with that man, or her therapeutic one?
Do any of us think that *he* wants to be a better person because of his relationship with her?
Where is Jadah? I hope she's okay, we haven't heard from her on this board for a few days and quite frankly, I'm concerned about her.
Does anyone know how she's doing?
Posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 13:13:21
In reply to For Starlight(last message for you too), posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:04:27
I don't know how to explain it other than how I feel about it - it's like when I was in the military - there's not supposed to be any social/dating interaction between officers and enlisted. But I dated several officers, they were more educated in most cases, a couple were doctors, a couple were pilots, I even dated one (who knocked my socks off - I might add!) while I was in my tech school training. I'd sneak out of my window and meet him somewhere (and it was fun!)
They're just humans who've had a lot of schooling and they're supposed to adhere to this boundary, but boundaries are crossed all the time. Look at Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, etc., etc. It seems wrong, but it seems forgiveable to me. Everyone is needy - including therapists and we all seek love, healing, help, closeness. And maybe sometimes, that's the work. Maybe going through that whole experience is the work.....just a thought. Luckily, I haven't had that problem. I had one situation in college where I slept with a professor and was very into him, but then one day, when we were on a trip to the beach, I saw this side of him that completely disgusted me and I was done. From that point on he grossed me out - and then he started stalking me like a wierdo and I had to go to the Victim's advocate on campus to get it stopped. It was a great ego booster and I learned a lot from it, and I gained power by taking control of the situation and ditching him. It's kind of like we can turn the situation around and use it to our own advantage and growth.
Just some thoughts - I'm trying to be as honest as I can be.
starlight
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on July 23, 2004, at 13:22:30
In reply to Sorry to be posting again..., posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:25:53
Susan, don't apologize for posting! I love to read your posts. You're quite eloquent.
Posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 13:35:34
In reply to Sorry to be posting again..., posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:25:53
I agree, it's idealistic, but not necessarily realistic. Yes, we want to have the right things in our lives, build good relationships based on trust and make good choices. But sometimes, we learn to make those good choices based on making bad choices. That can help us realize the difference and desire the better option. Otherwise, how do we recognize the difference?
starlight
Posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 15:45:30
In reply to Re: For Starlight(last message for you too), posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 13:13:21
You've had some interesting experiences. I used to work for a military-type organization too, and I know that male officers were always making advances towards girls, which they definitely weren't supposed to do. All of them married, I might add. The guys you dated in the military ... I'm curious, were they single or married?
Posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 15:48:24
In reply to Re: Sorry to be posting again... » Susan47, posted by Miss Honeychurch on July 23, 2004, at 13:22:30
Omigod thank you, I think I love you!
It's been discouraging posting because I don't get much response, and I really really need it.
Plus I'm having a horrible day, which doesn't help.
And at the end of next week I'll be PMS-ing, which is *definitely* another horrible downer.
This is one of the most horrible emotional times of my life .. I hope.
I want some *good* emotional times.
Posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 17:13:19
In reply to Starlight, posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 15:45:30
They were all single. I've dated two married men in my life, one that I knew was married and one that I didn't.
The married guy was very exciting at first. He was a doctor (OB/GYN) and wealthy and we dated for a few months. It was glamorous in the way that he treated me, the places he took me too and his lovemaking, but eventually I realized it was pretty worthless and he was worthless too and I dropped him. And the second guy fooled me into thinking that he was single, but I eventually put two and two together and got rid of that jerk also. Both times I was in my early twenties and kind of in that exploratory stage and the first married guy pursued me relentlessly. Those experiences turned me off to dating married guys completely.
I guess I don't judge either Jadah or the doc in this situation because some people think that it would be better if we arrived with certain rules completely ingrained in us that we never strayed from, but that's just not the truth. In many ways it's trial and error, and we hope that we'll make the right choices, but sometimes we don't. We can walk away from our wrong choices and in the end be better people for even making those wrong choices. This whole journey is just a set of experiences that we choose to make along the way, some work, some don't, some hurt, some make us feel good, some dark, some light, some yin, some yang.
Who knows - maybe Jadah's therapist is frustrated with his own life and while we'd like to hold therapists/doctors to the highest of standards and hope that he would leave his wife or deal with his family problems head on, evidently he didn't. He chose to deal with them by acting out - which a lot of people do. Just because he's a therapist doesn't preclude him from making bad choices.
Posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 19:51:44
In reply to Re: Starlight, posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 17:13:19
You're right. I was just feeling sorry for every patient in psychotherapy. It's a feeling sorry for myself day.
Yes, I agree that doctors have it just as tough as every one of us; I'm a little stuck with the moral high road though when I think about a patient being even more damaged. To be honest, I could never be a psychologist. I would end up having affairs with a lot of my patients, I'm sure. Love is a very easy thing to fall into.
Posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 19:51:52
In reply to Re: Starlight, posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 17:13:19
You're right. I was just feeling sorry for every patient in psychotherapy. It's a feeling sorry for myself day.
Yes, I agree that doctors have it just as tough as every one of us; I'm a little stuck with the moral high road though when I think about a patient being even more damaged. To be honest, I could never be a psychologist. I would end up having affairs with a lot of my patients, I'm sure. Love is a very easy thing to fall into.
Posted by Raindancer on July 24, 2004, at 10:24:38
In reply to Re: Starlight, posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 19:51:52
Susan, I have enjoyed your posts very much. As a T in training and someone who cares very deeply for her T as well I find it all very interesting. Falling in love is not the same as loving and there are very many different kinds of love and none of these stay the same over time. My T knows about my feelings for him and we talk about it (This is important!). He also cares for me, at least on a therapeutiic level but we are both aware that the relationship stays in the therapy room. We respect ourselves and each other enough not to do anything that would hurt the other, our relationship or our relationships in real life. (I still find it hard though!)
A few years ago this wouldn't have been possible for me, but he just kept on talking about it and I was able to express at least some of what I felt. Everyday relationships change things. That's why married love can become tedious without care and work and it would be just the same with a T once the initial passion had worn off. You are bright and brave, wise and thoughtful. Go well.Raindancer.
Posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 24, 2004, at 16:19:26
In reply to Re: For Starlight(last message for you too), posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 13:13:21
> I don't know how to explain it other than how I feel about it - it's like when I was in the military - there's not supposed to be any social/dating interaction between officers and enlisted. But I dated several officers, they were more educated in most cases, a couple were doctors, a couple were pilots, I even dated one (who knocked my socks off - I might add!) while I was in my tech school training. I'd sneak out of my window and meet him somewhere (and it was fun!)
starlight,
I totally understand your view. I, also, did some time in the military and the fraternization was quite rampant and usually without the serious consequences that *I think* many would predict.
I have been somewhat awed by the strictness of boundaries in therapy as compared to many other relationships such as teacher/student, officer/enlisted, etc.I try to believe it must be founded upon the fact that therapists learn so much more about our inner/personal (and usually painful) lives prior to the supposed affair. And yet I'm wondering how much that component matters when/if both therapist and patient seek to have a personal relationship. Furthermore, I've read extensively about the pain experienced by patients who have been exploited (in their own words) by therapists and yet I wonder what percentage of persons have sexual or otherwise inappropriate relations with Ts and don't go on to report it as exploitive? I don't mean to downplay the serious pain that I know some persons have felt as a result of crossing boundaries with their T, but at the same time it seems that having such strict boundaries actually causes some to want the relationship even more. The T, rather than seeming human, gets to assume a role "mightier" than any priest, teacher, doctor, or other person in our lives. Isn't that setup for the "fall?"
I'm know I'm bringing up some disturbing issues, but that's what I think about sometimes.
Posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 24, 2004, at 16:24:51
In reply to Re: For Starlight, posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 24, 2004, at 16:19:26
I guess I left out the most significant fact about me and my perspective in the above post.
I met my husband while we were both in the military. We fraternized for over 6 months before we became "legal." It was not an officer/enlisted frat, but rather it was a relationship prohibited by the rules of our training facility, so once we got past a certain stage we were okay to date. Five years later, we got married.
I guess if I were a strict rules person then I wouldn't have him or my daughter now. Just an example.
Posted by Susan47 on July 24, 2004, at 21:24:53
In reply to Re: For Starlight, posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 24, 2004, at 16:19:26
Look it up on the web; there's a couple of studies that show the same stats; all I remember is that 1% commit suicide after an affair with their therapist, 10% actually go on to marry each other (that was a surprise) but the numbers in between aren't very good either.
It's very interesting, and like everything in life, depends on all kinds of variables. I suppose we just have to do the best we can with what we've got.
Thanks for reading.
Posted by Damiana on July 24, 2004, at 22:07:17
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by pinkeye on July 15, 2004, at 19:45:37
I feel that not falling for your T if you feel he is a good T (and he is a heterosexual), and you are a woman with trauma history, is impossible. I did that too, being a successful professional and a very hurt and messed-up trauma survivor.
Him being much older and me imagining nothing could really happen in real terms, made it so easy to tell him in countless e-mails and close to 100 of poems. Not once has he allowed me to discuss it with him in the sessions, as if it was a completely unacceptable conception, my need to bring it up was scorned mostly gently each time I tried. Yet, he let me tell the serial horrors of my life because he made me believe I needed to tell it all over until I heal. I drew the pictures, I told the details, I cried and sobbed and broke down a few times, to hear from him he deeply cared about me and loved me, my suffering had moved him, and he was there to absorb it all.
He persuaded me I had the dissociative disorder, he used hypnosis and silence to relieve my stress. If I did not fall for him, I would be a fiend, I feel. My social status appeased him, I asked him for advise on all aspects of my life, he had been the most intimate friend and companion I have ever had. Then, for an unknown reason, to me seemingly out of context, he turned on me screaming in my face: "do You think I am romantically attracted to you?", while I was flying away in horror saying "no", him saying "good, for I am not!". While he was examining every square micrometer of my face, neck, chest, hair, with his huge deep brown eyes ten inches from my face.
This happened after a few smaller impasses when I felt I should quit because I was too involved emotionally, he always dissuaded me by claiming I was "firing him" unjustly.
The following two sessions were a royal display of my humble apologies for yet another inaproppriate behavior, while he used every possible knowledge imparted to him in the moments of therapeutic intimacy, to ridicule and intimidate me starting with my sexual inadequacy to my "slut-like" almost alter. His explanation was that, this was a result of cumulative effect of my relentless confessions of attachment (no matter how poetic they were), and he needed the much wanted vacation.
The freeze and terror he recreated in me are, in my mind, zillion times worse than if he extended his arm and touched me physicaly.
The joy of emotional and intellectual intimacy I exprienced with him in the last 8 months is indiscribable. The rejection and betrayal I feel because I only dared to be the "incorporated me", put me way beyond the point where I began. Mind you, I walked in his office because he was recommended by the private school to discuss my eldest son's behavioral difficulties, then accepting him as my therapist when he revealed to me I suffered from severe trauma consequences and had me read Judy Herman's book.I think I shall never in my life look at a man again, let alone entertain an intimacy. I am killed, killed by my T because I dared to fall for him (not even having a notion in my head about the transference...)
All in all, if he had the guts to touch me, it would had been much less damage, in my mind.
Posted by Susan47 on July 24, 2004, at 22:47:21
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Damiana on July 24, 2004, at 22:07:17
I can barely breathe.
You sound so much like me it's indescribable.
And I can see my T being unsettled by my behaviour.
It sounds like your ex-T went through trauma of his own; when he yelled at you with his "huge brown eyes" (is he the same T as mine????) was he denying something he was feeling?
Do they get messed up too?
Posted by Susan47 on July 24, 2004, at 22:53:36
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Damiana on July 24, 2004, at 22:07:17
You shouldn't have been traumatized by this man; he wasn't fair to you or honest with himself.
It's a bit difficult to follow everything in your story but I certainly made my own interpretations that hit really close to home for me. I can't tell everything in this format; too bad.
Thank you for your courage in sharing your story; you sound like a wonderful, brave, caring person.
Posted by Susan47 on July 24, 2004, at 23:06:20
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Damiana on July 24, 2004, at 22:07:17
**Not once has he allowed me to discuss it with him in the sessions, as if it was a completely unacceptable conception, my need to bring it up was scorned mostly gently each time I tried.**
Are you, and was he referring specifically to the emails and poems, or something else?
If so, were you asking for *his* emotional feedback on them, or wishing to work through the emotions *you* had? What was your intent?
I'm wondering, because I'm thinking that if a T were really emotionally moved by the emotions of a client, would s/he feel threatened by that?
I need to know... anybody?
Posted by lucy stone on July 25, 2004, at 9:19:02
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Susan47 on July 24, 2004, at 23:06:20
I'm sorry this happened to you, Damiana, your T should have been able to talk about your feelings. The kind of feelings you have for your T are very typical and an experienced T should be able to help you with them. I just finished "In Session", recommended by many on this board and it helped me tremendously. I want to thank all who suggested it and I also recommend it to all women in long term therapy. I wish I had it now to refer to but I lent it to my T last Thursday! He had never heard of it but was interested and promised to at least look through it, but his fist question to me was about why I felt it was important. Anyway, the book is about the feelings women clients develop for their Ts and the appropriate and inappropriate responses they get in return. The book does say that some Ts will not discuss the close feelings clients develop but that not discussing them is a mistake. The best Ts use the feelings as a point of exploration, wanting to know more about them and accepting them without being threatened. I wish I could say more but I can't without the book to help me, but I can't recommend it too highly.
Posted by Damiana on July 26, 2004, at 8:25:51
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by lucy stone on July 25, 2004, at 9:19:02
Thank you so much for helping me through the worst moments by your input and support. I feel if he did allow me to talk about it and go through it with him as the book seem to suggest, all would be well.
I did contact him back after I posted my story. Learning about transference opened my eyes and made me realize that what I was experiencing was normal and was to be expected rather than a sign of my moral turpitude as I came to believe.
Posted by starlight on July 26, 2004, at 13:12:08
In reply to Steelmagnolia25, posted by Susan47 on July 24, 2004, at 21:24:53
That 1% may have committed suicide regardless of whether or not they had the affair - just a thought.
starlight
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