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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by gardenergirl on July 14, 2004, at 8:17:32
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 13, 2004, at 19:16:32
I just wanted to echo what others' said that this boundary violation is his doing, and should never have happened to you. Please consider finding a new therapist. This will allow you to again experience someone who's primary concern is you and your mental health.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Pfinstegg on July 15, 2004, at 11:58:27
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 13, 2004, at 19:16:32
I just wanted to add my voice to the others', and say I'm so sorry this happened to you. Even though there may have been an intermixture of a few positive things, these are things you achieved yourself through talking and sharing your feelings with him, and could have brought to a relationship of your own. You came to him for therapy; it's natural to have sexual desires for your therapist, and you were doing your part in being open and honest about them. He committed the most serious boundary violation there is.
I think we all appreciated your courage and candor in describing so clearly what happened. It had a powerful effect on me; I mentioned it to my analyst today. He said that there is a Boston-based organzation called TELL (Therapy Exploitation Link Line), which provides support for psychotherapy patients who have been sexually exploited by their therapists. He spoke highly of it, and I have complete trust in his judgement. You can contact them at tell@advocateweb.org. It is volunteer-run, and their web site indicated tht you might not get an immediate response, but that you will definitely get one. They are prepared to provide a lot of support to help you out of this situation.
Posted by Dinah on July 15, 2004, at 16:38:57
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist » Jadah, posted by Pfinstegg on July 15, 2004, at 11:58:27
Pfinstegg, thank you for sharing this. But I am so saddened that this happens often enough that such an organization is necessary.
Posted by Pfinstegg on July 15, 2004, at 16:44:52
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on July 15, 2004, at 16:38:57
me too, Dinah. I was shocked that there was one.
Posted by Deafmom on July 15, 2004, at 18:31:09
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on July 15, 2004, at 16:38:57
I really do feel bad that this was so painful, but I must be honest in saying that I still wish for it. Not that it would ever happen, but I'm just being honest. :o)
Posted by Jadah on July 15, 2004, at 19:07:32
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist » tinydancer, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2003, at 7:10:36
I am soooo confused. My therapist is trying to keep things the way they were but we still have "unexpected" sex sometimes. It scares me because in the beginning he said that this couldnt go on because he would go insane from cheating on his wife. I want him so bad that I dont say 'NO", but each time we are together sexually I fear hes going to be the one to abandon me and say "I cant see you anymore". I would literally die without him. Its so hard to see him professionally and not want to be with him. Thank you for your resoponses. I was hoping to hear from you. I wanted to let you all know that it is one thing to have feelings but its another thing to act on them. I am just as responsible as he is. I led him on for years, slowly realling him in like a fish, preying of his weaknesses. His profession is one thing, but he is still a human with human emotions. Im not saying it is right what we have been doing, on the contarary, but it has taught me some valuable life lessons. I just want you all to know that your fantasies are real, normal, justifiable- hang onto them, but remember, your therapist is human, they are not a therapist 24-7. The more I got to know my therapist on a personal level the more I saw his mood swings, personal points of view, flaws. It was a major blow because I thought he was "perfect" . Sometimes I wish all I had were my fantasies, they were so much better when I was in control of things. I really believe that I was in love with the IDEA of him, which is not realistic in real life. I do understand where all of you are at in your feelings, I was once there too. Very confused and scared now, even though I do cherish those moments we share together.How much longer though before this all ends and I feel the ultimate hurt and betrayal???
Posted by Pfinstegg on July 15, 2004, at 19:43:36
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 15, 2004, at 19:07:32
According to what I read on the TELL site, patients almost always feel that they are responsible for sexual boundary crossings, whereas, in both legal and psychiatric terms, it is NEVER considered the patient's fault. It is the therapist's responsibility to make sure that it does not happen, no matter what desires and longings are talked about.
You are caught right in the middle of this intense experience, with longings to keep it going, extreme fears that it will end, and, I think you said, an awareness that it is preventing you from developing a relationship outside of therapy which would be truly yours. It sounds like you do really know that only pain, insecurity and eventual loss await you: you may eventually look back on these years of involvement with your therapist as lost years for you as a person. I can understand how extremely difficult it would be, but perhaps you would eventually be glad if you took a step back from it emotionally, and sought other sources of support. I do hope that you will consider that - I think it's a very courageous step to have posted about it here.
Posted by henrietta on July 15, 2004, at 19:44:23
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 15, 2004, at 19:07:32
No, you are not just as responsible as he is. This is abuse. Is a child responsible for the abuse an adult hands out? You are, in this relationship, as vulnerable as a child. He abused you! You are NOT responsible. Please get away from him as soon as possible and report him
so he can't abuse others. Please. Please. Do this. If not for yourself, then for others he will abuse in the future---and believe me, he will abuse others in the future.
I'm very very sorry this has happened to you.
Posted by pinkeye on July 15, 2004, at 19:45:37
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 15, 2004, at 19:07:32
Jadah,
Your posts go straight to my heart. I am sure many of us on this board feel the same.
I would suggest take one step at a time. Stop seeing your therapist for therapy first. And start seeing another therapist. It is awfully hard to continue to see your therapist on a professional basis and not feel attracted and have sexual relationship with him given what you have already done.
There is no point or need to blame him fully. He is a human and has done a mistake. But you don't have to continue to do the same thing again and again. Seeing you for further therapy is awfully awfully wrong on his part. And I am sure it won't produce you any good. Atleast go to somebody else for therapy. And gradually get yourself into a situation where you have the courage to let go of him. Otherwise, this constant fear will eat you alive.
Pinkeye.
Posted by tryingtobewise on July 16, 2004, at 1:04:51
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by pinkeye on July 15, 2004, at 19:45:37
Hi Jadah,
I really agree with Pinkeye's post above me. When you do get the courage to start pulling back from this situation, it will help to have someone (a new therapist I guess) to process this with.
I know you care for him, and you do not need to villify him (although I certainly think that is reasonable too :) ) but your mental health is suffering here and the pain of breaking things off might be worth going through in order to start putting things back together.
I have a strange situation with my therapist too though (my post is somewhere below) so I'm probably not the best one to talk!
Good luck and please take care!
Kim
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on July 16, 2004, at 14:47:53
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by tryingtobewise on July 16, 2004, at 1:04:51
Jadah,
When I'm in these predicaments, I always ask myself what advice I would give my child (I don't have one by the way) if she were in the same situation. If your daughter came to you with this problem, what would you advise her.
As corny as this sounds, my T has told me that I must become my own best friend, and even my own mother and father.
Can you approach the situation from this viewpoint?
Posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 20:54:43
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist » tinydancer, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2003, at 7:10:36
Again I want to thank you all for your wonderful input. It is very hard to let go. I am curious, for all of you that say you are in love with your therapist... if the opportunity arose, would you be strong enough to say "no", especially when this is the one person who you are closest to and have developed deep feelings for over time.I know it is difficult when I read all of your writings, I know how difficult and helpless it feels to want something/someone so bad yet you dont have any control. Could you put yourself in my shoes? What would that be like for you? I dont see our affair as an ultimate betrayal, because I love him and this is what I wanted. I just want him in my life, whatever that may be. We still do good work in therapy, its my feelings outside of that when I am not with him that hurts-always did. He taught me alot about love, about loving myself, about trusting someone when I am most vulnerable...that not all men are going to abuse me.... I dont mean to be contradictory to the responses I have received from so many of you. I know that you are all right in what you say, it is just going to be difficult to cut loose. I have noone else but him to talk to about this because he is married and I am not out to ruin his carreer because he loves me and is caught in this love triangle. I know it will end, we cant keep on like this, we both know it. I would hope then that we could go back to the way things were theraputically, he has given me more hope and met more of my psychological needs than anyone I have ever worked with in the past (which has been alot).Noone else would hold me when I cried and wipe my face. Noone else would kiss the scars I have all over my body that makes me ashamed. Noone else has ever known me so intimately on a psychological level. He has the most soothing voice and it reassures me that everything is going to be alright. Please do not look at this situation as being all bad. There is a middle ground if you could see what I am saying. The sex will stop eventually, we discuss it all the time. Part of the reason I write you is to let you know that this sort of thing does happen. Be careful what you wish for. Our relationship though, has made me want to be a better person, and I realize now that I am capable of loving someone else and am ready to search out a relationship with someone. I have definately grown. I know longer want to be just someones occassional sex thing for there pleasure. I know what it is like now to make love and i want more of that in a relationship. He has taught me alot, in all ways. Please do not get frustrated with me, but try to see the whole situation all the way through. Please keep responding, I look forward to all of your input. :)
Posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 21:07:45
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist » Jadah, posted by Pfinstegg on July 15, 2004, at 19:43:36
> According to what I read on the TELL site, patients almost always feel that they are responsible for sexual boundary crossings, whereas, in both legal and psychiatric terms, it is NEVER considered the patient's fault. It is the therapist's responsibility to make sure that it does not happen, no matter what desires and longings are talked about.
>
> You are caught right in the middle of this intense experience, with longings to keep it going, extreme fears that it will end, and, I think you said, an awareness that it is preventing you from developing a relationship outside of therapy which would be truly yours. It sounds like you do really know that only pain, insecurity and eventual loss await you: you may eventually look back on these years of involvement with your therapist as lost years for you as a person. I can understand how extremely difficult it would be, but perhaps you would eventually be glad if you took a step back from it emotionally, and sought other sources of support. I do hope that you will consider that - I think it's a very courageous step to have posted about it here.THANK YOU FOR THIS INFORMATION. I WILL CHECK INTO IT AND LET YOU KNOW HOW IT GOES. I DONT WANT TO GET HIM IN TROUBLE THOUGH. I WILL LINK IT TONIGHT AND FOLLOW UP WITH YOU . THANKS AGAIN, I NEVER KNEW OF THIS WEBSITE. TAKE CARE, TALK TO YOU SOON. JADAH
Posted by pinkeye on July 17, 2004, at 1:36:45
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 20:54:43
You have a wonderful way of communicating your feelings.
I agree with you, if I were in your situation, I would find it really really hard to let go. I would still like to have as much of it as possible.
There are maybe other non drastic alternatives that you can consider.
Maybe you start seeing another T simultaneously and space out a little your meeting with your T. By that maybe this feeling of overwhelming desire and dependance might reduce a little. If you don't want to penalize your T, then maybe you don't have to mention his name to your new T so that will protect him. I think it is practically impossible for anybody to handle this on their own without getting external help.
I don't think you will be able to come out of this unscathed or unhurt. You are going to be hurt. The aim here would be to minimise the hurt as much as possible. And helping you cope up with the loss and separation.
I wouldn't advise you to take any legal action against your current T. It would mean a disaster to you. I don't know if you will be able to bear the guilt and emotional trauma that will come out a legal battle.
Posted by Deafmom on July 17, 2004, at 8:12:51
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 20:54:43
I understand completely. That's why I posted the fact that, regardless of all the negative factors, I still wish for it. I would take him up on it any day and I find myself obsessed with thinking of him. I need to figure out a way not to be so needy of him, but it's hard. I feel so empty in life and he is the only one who makes me feel good. I have DID (mulitple personality), Borderline PD, PTSD, psychotic depression and Avoidant PD. I am very reclusive and scared of people. I am also completely deaf....self-inflicted (two alters faked hearing tests until they got a surgery-hungry doctor to sever both auditory nerves). He is hearing, but signs, so he can hear the variations of my voice when I switch and he's just really wonderful. I understand how you feel as much as I possibly can. People can tell me not to let it happen, but, to be fully honest, if it was possible, I would jump on it (no pun intended). :v)
Posted by Raindancer on July 17, 2004, at 17:43:22
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 20:54:43
Jadah, I am really sad for your situation. I think you said it all when you said that you wish you could go back to your original therapeutic relationship, but I don't blame you at all. A year ago I would have done the same . I loved my T very much and that love was so overpowering I would have done anything. Now I love him more than that and the feeling is deep and abiding and I couldn't do anything to hurt his work and his family, both of which mean a lot to him. (Not that he's asked me! this makes it easier!) I think a lot of this is because I'm older than most people here and have already made huge mistakes in my life, which have hurt people and which I deeply regret.
I think you are tackling this with love and sensitivity. I think pinkeye's idea is very good, that you start therapy with someone else to help you through this. My thoughts are with you - take care. Raindancer
Posted by Pfinstegg on July 18, 2004, at 19:15:18
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 21:07:45
Your posts are so articulate, and convey the incredibly complex mixture of growth, intimacy and pain which has resulted from this situation. I am not underestimating the positive things which have occurred. I have to admit that I have very strong feelings of sexual longing, and just a desire for the intense closeness which you have described.- it's just not going to happen with my T, but, if it could happen, I would probably not resist it. Probably, as long as you live, you will have strong and meaningful memories of it. As you say, it's not all bad.
But still, so much loss and pain lie ahead. The organization I mentioned-TELL- is for support. There is no pressure to go to court, or anything similiar. Because of the positive aspects of your relationship, this is probably not something you'd want to do. They are just there to help you get out of the situation when and if you choose to. You mentioned that you and your T still do good work together- is it really possible to do both at the same time? I guess it must be! I do like the suggestion of beginning to form a relationship with another T. You would need to find one with whom you could form a strong connection; this would put you in a better position to make healthy choices for yourself and your future. I know something like this takes time to resolve, but I hope you will keep posting to us.
Posted by Joslynn on July 18, 2004, at 19:36:27
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 21:07:45
*sigh* I just wrote a long, hopefully supportive post and then lost it because I hit submit without putting in my screen name.
Anyway, what I wanted to say was first of all, thank you for your honesty and for showing us the dark side of the fantasy.
Secondly, like others, I do think you should see another therapist and let go of him. I know that you feel psychologically and sexually bonded, but long-term, how good will it be, how much time of your life and emotions will it eat up? I just feel like you deserve to have someone of your own to love and who loves you.
Also, just so you know, if you do tell the story to another therapist, you may want to ask first if they are obligated to report one of their peers who violates the professional ethics. They may be required to report this kind of thing, I think I read that somewhere.
Personally, I do think this guy should be reported, but that is not my decision to make, it is yours. And I wouldn't want you to end up having that decision made for you by another therapist either. So maybe research the professional requirements about other therapist violations first, either by asking or reading up on it...whether or not they would be required to tell.
This may be a long process for you, but hang in there and please remember it is not your fault. He should have been trained to realize that a sexual abuse victim is very vulnerable in this way. It is hard for me to have compassion for someone who cannot uphold the morals of his marriage or his profession. I think you deserve better, but I am also impressed that you can see all sides. I don't think I could.
None of this is your fault. You were vulnerable and had been victimized before. You were looking for a safe place. I think we all want that and sometimes it can go to another place we hadn't intended.
Posted by shadows721 on July 18, 2004, at 19:37:28
In reply to I'm in love with my therapist, posted by tinydancer on October 10, 2003, at 2:43:19
Tiny,
As someone who also suffers with DID, you have to be very careful. Our boundaries are blurred. We (meaning I here) are easily confused with fantasy and reality. I would really analyze why these feelings are coming up and share them with the T. I think this is transference. Transference is not a bad thing.
You mentioned this person is married and with children. This can go many ways: 1) You want to recreate an unconscious pain by getting involved with an unavailable person 2) You see this person as a safe person to have sexual fantasies. 3) This person reminds you unconsciously of another person that brought you pain in association with sex.
Only you have the answers, but they need to be discovered by you. I really don't think this has anything to do with him. Remember, you are the one creating this fantasy. What's the motive? Is it to stop a therapeutic relationship? Find out whats really going on Tiny. Talk with the T. This is actually very common transference in therapy. Let us know what happens.
Posted by Joslynn on July 18, 2004, at 20:21:18
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Joslynn on July 18, 2004, at 19:36:27
Posted by Joslynn on July 18, 2004, at 20:22:18
In reply to above was for Jadah (nm), posted by Joslynn on July 18, 2004, at 20:21:18
Posted by Jadah on July 19, 2004, at 21:09:54
In reply to I mean, my post was for Jadah (nm), posted by Joslynn on July 18, 2004, at 20:22:18
I just want to thank you all for the continued support and input. It is so nice to have. Someone mentioned that I was honest and articulate, I have to confess that I am also a social worker, currently out of the profession to pursue a paramedic carreer. I think about how many times I have talked to married couples trying to recover from affairs, of just clients with relationship issues. Isnt it funny how you could tell other people what to do to better their lives but you cant take your own advice?! Its hard to look at myself in the mirror sometimes. I also wanted to mention that I am "in recovery" in terms of having borderline personality disorder. Can anyone relate? I heard on a movie the other day someone say that "you would be surprised what a little girl without a daddy will do for a little attention". In a sick way, to some degree, it reminded me of my self and my current situation. No one wants to be alone, especially in my head, that is not a safe place for me to linger too long. Sorry, I know I am just babbling and probably not making any sense. I guess my unconscious is starting to seep out. I hope all is well with all of you, in this Darwinian struggle called love and life. Hope to hear from you soon. Take what you can from this and discard the rest, like I said, my thoughts right now are really disorganized....Im very tired. Also wanted to hear from more of you, out of curiousity, as to how many of you would give in to your T, the object of your affection, had they given you the open door to make your fantasies with that person come true, sexually.... would you be able to say no?? Just curious. I did get one response and I thank you. Its not about people agreeing or disagreeing with me, I think it is a thought that could harmlessly be entertained. What if it did happen to you??? I never in my wildest dreams thought it would happen to me. Blew me right out of the water!! Take care guys.
Jadah
Posted by Joslynn on July 20, 2004, at 8:46:42
In reply to Re: I mean, my post was for Jadah, posted by Jadah on July 19, 2004, at 21:09:54
To answer your question...I couldn't live the fantasy if the door were opened. Then I would lose the safe person I run to when I feel hurt by other men (my father, guys I am dating/have dated, etc.). If he was the one with whom I was involved, then when he hurt me (which he would be doing by having an affair with me) I would have no one to run to. Because he would be the one I would want to run from. So I would lose him by having him.
(Also, the guilt would get to me...if the person were single, it may be easier to contemplate, but I still couldn't do it. That's partly for religious reasons though.)
Well, that is my answer, FWIW.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on July 20, 2004, at 9:26:49
In reply to Re: I mean, my post was for Jadah » Jadah, posted by Joslynn on July 20, 2004, at 8:46:42
Jadah,
It's hard to objectively answer your question about what I would do if the door were open. I am very attracted to my T, both physically and mentally. And I imagine all sorts of scenarios all the time. However, I tend to think that if I were actually presented with the opportunity to ACT on those fantasies, I would run screaming from the room.
I idealize my T so much and I am one of those people who prefer the fantasy over reality since reality is such a let down. I would also be devestated I believe if my T initiated anything because then I would know that he would not have my best interests at heart. I would know that he was not a professional. And I would lose the one relationship in my life where it is all about ME (sounds ridiculous I know).
I am also at the point now (after a year in therapy) where I feel I actually DESERVE the best care possible. And if any boundary crossings appeared I would know I was not receiving the care I deserved.
Posted by pinkeye on July 20, 2004, at 14:07:43
In reply to Re: I mean, my post was for Jadah, posted by Jadah on July 19, 2004, at 21:09:54
Jadah
It reminds me that even Ts or Social workers or not perfect individuals and have their own ups and downs. I appreciate your telling us that you were a social worker.
Till day before yesterday, I would have said that I would grab the oppurtunity to be with my T if there was a chance. But over the past couple of days, realized that marital commitment is very important and loyalty to a marriage is very important. So now I don't know. If both of us had not been married, then the answer is a definite yes. But if one of us or both of us are married (as in my case), then answer is most likely a no.
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