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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by crushedout on May 2, 2004, at 15:07:54
...about your conversations with your T about him holding you?
what you've discussed, pros and cons, why he would do it, does he want to do it, etc.?
I'm really interested. If you don't want to, i'll understand.
p.s. did you tell him about paul vereshack?
Posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 2:03:06
In reply to tinydancer, can you talk more...., posted by crushedout on May 2, 2004, at 15:07:54
I'm happy to discuss it with you, but there isn't much to report currently.
Because of the nature of my disorder and my background I know he is wary about hurting me, intentionally or unintentionally, by touching me. Obviously if you know the patient is in love with you it sets up some difficult and complex problems that he has taken into consideration.
When I told him about some childhood abuse I went through, after the appointment I really wanted a hug. So, I cautiously and shyly asked if that was okay. He wanted to, but he felt constricted by what my alters might feel about it and in the end he held my hand for a minute as an alternative way of touching and making contact.
It's been very hard for me to deal with the distance between us, many times I wish he would just put his arm around me or hold my hand when I'm really struggling. I think that maybe someday he might, but not until he feels that the outcome will not be detrimental.
As I told you I recently told him that I just wished sometimes I could sit in his lap. I was actually amazed the first time I heard of such a thing-and wondered why this was something I wanted suddenly. This weekend suddenly I got a completely new fantasy in my head-I saw myself sitting on this big, cozy couch in front of the TV. I was sitting in between my T and his wife and they were smiling at me both like they were really proud of me and they both had cuddled up close to me sort of protecting me. Today is my appointment so I will bring that up to him and let you know where that discussion goes.
When I asked him about it he said if he really felt it would help he would do it. In some ways I think he would be more willing to do it with some of my alters, rather than me, because of the possible misinterpretation quotient.
He has stated that he almost never touches patients, which actually surprises me a lot because he is so kind and warm that it seems like he would-gotta find out about that one as well!
We talked about 15 minutes about Paul Vereshack. I had sent him the link to the site and he read the first two chapters of the online book. He had not heard of Paul Vereshack but was familiar with primal therapy and we discussed some of the theories. I was talking about how apparently he would lay down with patients on a mat, side to side, face to face and that sounded so confrontational to me. So then he was asking if it was him would I still be uncomfortable, and I think was a little unsure-I said that I think I would like it but that the message it would send to me would not be a therapeutic one, I would probably, even though I would "know" better intellectually, think that he "likes" me.
It is so strange that I have these urges suddenly to be held by my T, because I usually hate being held by anyone, especially my husband. (Nice, huh?) In my adolescence I was always teased by my mom and dad because I would bend at the waist whenever I hugged anyone because I didn't want any intimate contact. It is sad what abuse does to a person. It makes me sad that the very thing that could have helped me I have pushed away for so many years and am so afraid of.
I hope that eventually my T and I can get to a place where it is possible to have some kind of holding or touch, I mean I'm not expecting to get down on the floor or anything, but just an arm around me for comfort, to be able to feel taken care of and comforted in that way. But at the same time I'm very frightened to let anyone get that close to me-I have so many fears about letting people in that close which is why I think eventually this is going to be a big issue in therapy, and I'm interested to find out how we are going to deal with it.
I'll do my best to keep you updated on how its going and get back to you about today's appointment as soon as I'm up to it. Meanwhile, feel free to contact me at:
[xxx]
Sending you lots of hugs and hang in there! :)
Posted by rs on May 3, 2004, at 5:58:07
In reply to Re: tinydancer, can you talk more.... » crushedout, posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 2:03:06
Hi tinydancer. Hope its ok if just jump in here. Your post makes much sense to me. I also have DID. About a few weeks ago this need and urge inside from a small one to be cared for and held was painful. Never never has this happend. It was awful. The inner helper did the best she could with her. Made me feel totally crazy. Shared this with T by writting it. He totally understood and said he would comfort her but also asked if I had an issue with it or any other ones. Think about all the safe touch all alters never received? So just wanted to share with you and thanks for posting that. Will be following up on your appointment. Please do not think your crazy. Lots of luck.
Posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 9:05:30
In reply to Re: tinydancer, can you talk more.... » tinydancer, posted by rs on May 3, 2004, at 5:58:07
Hi rs, I really appreciate your contribution and hope you will feel free to jump in anytime. It is a good feeling to know what I wrote makes sense to you.
It was interesting that you too mentioned how you had never experienced this before. I myself am now learning a lot about touch and how it is an issue for me.
It is great that you were feeling able to communicate this with your T. I feel that when dealing with our kind of background and problems that we must feel freedom when we talk to our T's about what we have experienced and our needs and wishes. I'm really glad that you were able to be comforted by your T. Do you have any alters that are against touch?
Also, RS, can I ask you how long you have had the diagnosis and how long you have been with your current T? Thanks, I really appreciate your input!
Posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 9:36:11
In reply to tinydancer, can you talk more...., posted by crushedout on May 2, 2004, at 15:07:54
Really tough appointment today, but I left feeling very satisfied with the outcome, even though we dealt with some very hard things.
We talked a lot about my avoidance tactics-the way that I often speed up when I'm talking to my T, and that he feels locked out and unable to contribute. I know a lot of people feel that way when they are around me, and it was hard to hear him tell me this because what he says is important to me and it is hard when you feel behaviors are so ingrained and unconscious that you feel they are out of your control. We also talked about my need for sympathy and nurturing from others, which I never get because no one seems to think I need it. He pointed out some reasons why others might think that and it was really hard to take. I'm one of those people that cannot take criticism, much less the kind about my own personality so it was very hard. I wanted to leave but I'm not a "leaver" so I stuck it out. The other fact he pointed out was that I'm sometimes ultra-analytical, to the point of trying TOO hard so that people who are listening often think, "Well, she's got it all figured out" and don't feel too sorry for me.
Basically we were able to delve into some of these needs and look at why they were there and what we could do about it. I cried, which I think I've done a total of 3 times in my almost year with him, but I also think of that as important, because it creates a new level of honest communication.
I went back the the topic of touch and we talked about what my experiences were growing up. I don't remember sitting in the lap of my mom or my dad, ever. Even though I would assume that I did, at least with my mother. I don't remember any loving touch from my father whatsoever. My mother I think tried but I began to reject touch early on after my abuse I think. He wanted to try to get a grip on who my mom and dad were then. I told him about what I had thought about-the fantasy where I'm sitting on the couch, except that suddenly I didn't like his wife included so I left that out. Haha! We talked a lot about touching and what it means. I used an example of my art therapist teacher. I had an IBS attack while at class and was coming in and out. Finally I walked by her and she stroked my arm in a very gentle way. I was wearing a t-shirt so it was skin to skin contact. I was amazed that not only did I not cringe, I felt very nurtured. That showed me how conflicted I was-that while I crave touch and intimacy, I am very afraid of it-afraid of the unknown of what might happen to me, what the other person might do. It also showed me how much touch actually means in the concrete sense, that I place enormous importance on it, which sort of proves my T's point about caution when dealing with it. My T in the end said that he feels it could be a good thing for my younger alter to be sitting in his lap but doesn't really know about me. (I know that might be hard for people who don't have DID to understand. If you want me to explain how he can hold an alter but not me, I can explain.) Which I understand, I mean, I'm not really sure if that would be the greatest idea anyway because I would probably want it all the time then and lose focus. I talked about how one thing I would love is if I could sit close to him with his arm around me, sort of protecting me, and supportive of me. He said he could maybe even go along with that. Although no dates were set, haha!
One funny thing that happened was he said,"Before you leave, I want to ask you...." suddenly he's trailing off. I picked up and said, "You want to ask me to dinner tonight? Yes absolutely!" Heehee. Always good to laugh a little.
I left feeling redeemed, both in his eyes and my own self. It can be an amazing rollercoaster ride some appointments, but today I felt like I understood him on a different level, which helped me to process a lot of what was said, instead of saying, I'm going to go home and self injure or something, I'm able to process it in a different way. I guess that is positive. I'm struggling still because it was, well, abrasive, but I feel that he managed to still let me know that he does LIKE me and not HATE me, which is often very difficult to overcome if I feel that I've been a disappointment that day in therapy or something.
I will post more later if I think of anything, it was a 2 hour appointment so there is a lot of material there, and I need some time to think about it all. Let me know what you think, crushed!
Posted by crushedout on May 3, 2004, at 9:55:05
In reply to Update from appointment today, posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 9:36:11
Wow, tiny, it sounds like a very productive session and that you have a very good T. I think I understand DID pretty well but I find it fascinating so if you want to talk about how he would hold one of your alters but not you, I'd be interested in hearing about it (or just about the experience of DID in general).
All that aside, it sounds like talking about what touch means to you is a very important task. Although I have some abuse history, mine is probably very different from yours, and I don't think I have such ambivalence about touch as you do. I feel it's *very, very* important. I feel that in my bones. I think it can really heal one's soul.
I'd like to think more about what you've written and respond more later.
Thanks so much for sharing. When do you see your T again? How often do you see him?
crushed out
Posted by joslynn on May 3, 2004, at 10:36:03
In reply to Update from appointment today, posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 9:36:11
It makes me so sad that people on this board (and elsewhere) have been so badly abused that they had to fragment their personality just to get through it. When is this society going to realize how terrible child abuse is and do something about it? I know there are attempts, but so many states just seem to totally drop the ball. And there is such secrecy that often, no one even knows. But are there no clues at all, do neighbors and other relatives really have no inkling?
Then the therapists have to try to put things back together, but I think it should be seen as a societal problem, not just a therapy issue.
I just feel a sense of indignation that children have to go through this...and admiration that they survive. I was never even abused, just maybe a little verbally, and that was hard enough!
Posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 10:57:41
In reply to Re: Update from appointment today, posted by joslynn on May 3, 2004, at 10:36:03
It is sad. It is an incredible struggle to live through this and know that you belong and that you are on this planet for a reason. I often find it hard to believe no one has any clue. I just think people are often afraid to get involved, afraid of doing something that could affect them negatively in a social manner, or start something that is too big for them to handle. Plus there is always the fear of mistaking abuse for something else. When I turned 14 I started expressing my pain more outwardly-before that it was very inwardly based. My behavior screamed I hate you-I had tattoos and piercings and wore huge knee high boots with scary ripped t-shirts, mohawk in my hair-trying to fight back somehow through the pain by being so tough nothing could possibly hurt me. Inside I was the most petal soft, brokenhearted young woman hoping someone could come along and save me, understand me, see through all this somehow. But mostly I was in too much pain to see even that, I just needed to get through every day. One of my first admissions to the hospital for drug/alcohol problems, everyone there said, "It is so obvious that girl is in trouble! What took everyone so long to figure it out?" I don't know why either. These days so much more is known then was at that time, even though it is only a bit over a decade ago. I am just grateful that the psychology community has come as far as it has and that the common person knows what to look for more than they did 10 years ago. Hope awareness will continue to rise, that's all we can hope for.
Posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 11:05:49
In reply to Re: Update from appointment today » tinydancer, posted by crushedout on May 3, 2004, at 9:55:05
Hi crushed. Glad you were able to get something out of my post! I see my T once a week, every Monday. Our appointments average 90 minutes but every once in awhile they can run 2 hours if he has the time. He is the course psychologist for the day psych clinic so he actually can't take on clients generally, he made an exception for me because of his expertise in DID. Some weeks I ask for an extra appointment if I feel the need, it ends up being that I see him 2x/week once a month or sometimes less. I don't like to run him down or overuse his generosity when he is already put himself out on a limb squeezing me in once a week. He would ideally like to see me twice a week but it isn't possible. He does private practice once a week but I can't really afford it.
I just wanted to add about the statement "holding one of my alters but not me". If he was talking to one of my alters, the experiences belong totally to that alter. I,TinyD, don't share in it at all. After the alter is gone and I am back, I might not even remember anything that transpired, so if he were to hold an alter while they were out, he would truly in essence be holding a completely other person than myself. I as TinyD wouldn't benefit from it in the same way I would as if I got to sit in his lap while I was "myself". Does that make sense? I just wanted to explain that because I imagine a lot of people are confused as to how my T could deny me sitting in his lap but not my young alter. Hope that helps, if not please ask away so I can give a better answer to help you understand.
Really glad that I could share this with you. Hope to hear from you soon!
Posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 11:12:17
In reply to Update from appointment today, posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 9:36:11
Posted by crushedout on May 3, 2004, at 11:17:32
In reply to Re: Update from appointment today » crushedout, posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 11:05:49
so, tiny, it's possible that he *has* held one of your alters and you just don't know it, right? or would he have told you about it?has he met any of your alters?
how often do they come out in therapy (if at all)?
as always, only answer if you want to.
crushed
Posted by gardenergirl on May 3, 2004, at 11:27:52
In reply to Dinah, any thoughts on the appt? Just wonderin! (nm), posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 11:12:17
Tinydancer,
I hope you don't mind me jumping in. It sounds like it was a really productive session. I'm glad. Your T sounds wonderful.gg
Posted by Dinah on May 3, 2004, at 12:01:30
In reply to Dinah, any thoughts on the appt? Just wonderin! (nm), posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 11:12:17
My immediate thought is that nothing that is done to my body can avoid having an impact on all parts of me. But since I have full co-consciousness I don't know whether that would apply to you.
I also find that my therapist's emotional holding feels a whole lot better than physical touch. The few times he's touched my arm or shaken my hand, I felt absolutely nothing. When he sits before me and is open and receptive, I feel more held than the tightest of hugs. But that's just me, and I don't really like to be touched.
Posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 15:25:36
In reply to Re: Update from appointment today » tinydancer, posted by crushedout on May 3, 2004, at 11:17:32
>> so, tiny, it's possible that he *has* held one of your alters and you just don't know it, right? or would he have told you about it?
No, I would know about it. He would tell me as he usually does after an alter comes out and I have a certain level of co-consciousness as well so I can have flashes of information later on afterwards.
> has he met any of your alters?Quite a few.
> how often do they come out in therapy (if at all)?Not that often as of late. But usually every session we try to establish contact with one of them, unfortunately its so exhausting on me that I often won't want to "allow" the alter to talk.
Posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 15:27:46
In reply to Re: Dinah, any thoughts on the appt? Just wonderin!, posted by gardenergirl on May 3, 2004, at 11:27:52
> Tinydancer,
> I hope you don't mind me jumping in. It sounds like it was a really productive session. I'm glad. Your T sounds wonderful.
>
> ggHe is. He renews my faith in men. The man walks on water as far as I'm concerned. It isn't hard to love someone like him, that's for sure.
Posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 15:29:44
In reply to Re: Dinah, any thoughts on the appt? Just wonderin! » tinydancer, posted by Dinah on May 3, 2004, at 12:01:30
>
> I also find that my therapist's emotional holding feels a whole lot better than physical touch. The few times he's touched my arm or shaken my hand, I felt absolutely nothing. When he sits before me and is open and receptive, I feel more held than the tightest of hugs. But that's just me, and I don't really like to be touched.Me neither-but I want to change that because I know it is based in fear and closing myself to others. I also agree that my T can be very good at emotional holding too. But I have felt something the few times my T has reached out and touched me in passing or whatever-it means a lot. It's sort of an underline to his words, for me.
Posted by Dinah on May 3, 2004, at 16:28:02
In reply to Re: Dinah, any thoughts on the appt? Just wonderin! » Dinah, posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 15:29:44
I am absolutely positive that my therapist would never agree to such a thing. He's a very cautious therapist. But I get my physical holding needs met by my husband, and feel no real desire or need for my therapist to do that. I think it would feel dreadfully uncomfortable. Even making eye contact feels dreadfully uncomfortable and intimate for me. If I had no one at all to ever hold me, I might feel differently. There's many an evening that I have my husband hold me so tight that I hope to be able to lose my separateness. But a husband's supposed to do that. It's sort of like I'm a typical Mom and don't get grossed out by helping my son blow his nose (not so much anymore of course) but I'm not about to get my therapist's snot anywhere near me. Perhaps I compartmentalize?
Posted by rs on May 3, 2004, at 19:28:01
In reply to Re: tinydancer, can you talk more.... » rs, posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 9:05:30
Thanks so much for the reply. You would not believe how much I appreciate that. Ok about 4yrs ago got the diagnosis. Worked with a different T then who moved far away. Was his first DID he went for training and learned with me. He was really good. Well did not go to therapy for about 3yrs due to the trust. Got into major issues with gambling due to the escape thing. Was a great relief. Anyway started with this T in August. Disliked him much. Took much time to like and trust him. He has worked with one male DID. Anyway he is much better in many many ways. Old T saw once a week. This one sees twice a week and what a difference. I care for him much. Nothing romantic due to personal issues and just care for him as a person. Anyway yes there are a few that are uncomfortable with the touch issue. But tinydancer the pain that was there due to the little one just needing so so much was very hard to accept. Anyway I do have a hard time to accept that. Feel like this nut case. But you know think of the things we went thru and now deserve all the help and caring we can get. My T says that I have a hard time to accept the fact that need therapy. Yes do. You know think will be there for ever. He told me the other day that I will see him grow old with his first wrinkel. lol. Anyway your T sounds wonderful. Anytime you would like to talk please let know. Sorry about the spelling. How was T today?
Posted by rs on May 3, 2004, at 19:34:50
In reply to Update from appointment today, posted by tinydancer on May 3, 2004, at 9:36:11
Just read your post. Sounds like a very hard but wonderful appointment. How I understand about the alter and not you. You are just as fourtante as here to have a wonderful T. Makes such a difference when they care but most important believe. Does your T work with other clients with DID? Thanks for sharing.
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